How management stitch up Captains . . .
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How management stitch up Captains . . .
A while ago I was positioning with a regional UK airline. Sat next to me where a couple people who, by their conversation, I assumed were airline commercial management. The bloke sounded like either an engineering manager or flight operations director and the woman sounded like some kind of commercial director. Now, whilst I would not condone eavesdropping, discussions about engineering and airport contracts conducted in load voices interested me more than the Telegraph quick crossword. So, I listened in.
All quite uncontentious stuff until the couple started a discussion about technical delays. The bloke sitting next to me described how a Captain had caused the airline some grief by grounding an aircraft down route with a technical problem which might have been better fixed at base. The lady manager (nice girl) then said:
" Every airline had a few awkward Captains like that, you only have to threaten them once; they don't last long after that! "
Whatever the merits and demerits of this particular Captains decision I pose the following questions:
1. What legal authority does an airline manager have over a Captain?
2. What are the effective threats, implied or actual, that an airline can make to a Captain?
3. Does anyone think the BA Skipper who flew home on three engines would have felt vulnerable to company pressure if he diverted within America instead of flogging across the Pond?
4. Where does the buck stop these days?
All quite uncontentious stuff until the couple started a discussion about technical delays. The bloke sitting next to me described how a Captain had caused the airline some grief by grounding an aircraft down route with a technical problem which might have been better fixed at base. The lady manager (nice girl) then said:
" Every airline had a few awkward Captains like that, you only have to threaten them once; they don't last long after that! "
Whatever the merits and demerits of this particular Captains decision I pose the following questions:
1. What legal authority does an airline manager have over a Captain?
2. What are the effective threats, implied or actual, that an airline can make to a Captain?
3. Does anyone think the BA Skipper who flew home on three engines would have felt vulnerable to company pressure if he diverted within America instead of flogging across the Pond?
4. Where does the buck stop these days?
With the deapest of respect, I thought it was quite obvious.
1. There appears to be little solidarity among pilots, so the threat of retaliation by pilots against a victimised pilot is tiny. Therefore management runs zero commercial risk by victimising a pilot. Hopefully Ryanaire might prove this to be wrong.
2. Regulators are generally "captured" by those they regulate. They will generally side with employers or twiddle their thumbs and look the other way unless there is a blatantly bleeding obvious public scandal. Witness the ongoing non- event over the three engine Atlantic crossing.
3. Management has everything to gain by terrorising pilots. As the three engine Atlantic crossing was successful, full marks to operations for saving the company money. Of course if the aircraft went in, well it was the highly paid professional pilots' decision wasn't it? He made the mistake, not us!.
Who is enforcing the "professional creed" of Professional Pilots? Is there a professional creed at all? If so what is it? For example Doctors have the Hypocratic oath "first do no harm etc. etc" if all else fails they fall back on medical ethics. Lawyers do the same, they have a duty to the court that transcends everything else. They fall back on that to inform their decisions.
What informs the decisions of professional pilots, apart from endless rules and regulations? Where is your hypocratic oath or professional ethical foundation that is the thing you must fall back on when put between a rock and a hard place by the company??
As an extremly humble occasional bit of slf and PPL holder, I would be interested to understand where you are all "coming from" to use an Americanism.
1. There appears to be little solidarity among pilots, so the threat of retaliation by pilots against a victimised pilot is tiny. Therefore management runs zero commercial risk by victimising a pilot. Hopefully Ryanaire might prove this to be wrong.
2. Regulators are generally "captured" by those they regulate. They will generally side with employers or twiddle their thumbs and look the other way unless there is a blatantly bleeding obvious public scandal. Witness the ongoing non- event over the three engine Atlantic crossing.
3. Management has everything to gain by terrorising pilots. As the three engine Atlantic crossing was successful, full marks to operations for saving the company money. Of course if the aircraft went in, well it was the highly paid professional pilots' decision wasn't it? He made the mistake, not us!.
Who is enforcing the "professional creed" of Professional Pilots? Is there a professional creed at all? If so what is it? For example Doctors have the Hypocratic oath "first do no harm etc. etc" if all else fails they fall back on medical ethics. Lawyers do the same, they have a duty to the court that transcends everything else. They fall back on that to inform their decisions.
What informs the decisions of professional pilots, apart from endless rules and regulations? Where is your hypocratic oath or professional ethical foundation that is the thing you must fall back on when put between a rock and a hard place by the company??
As an extremly humble occasional bit of slf and PPL holder, I would be interested to understand where you are all "coming from" to use an Americanism.
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Ha!
Companies will resort to anything to get their way, whether the concerned Commander likes it or not.
Just the simple facts....period.
I have always looked the 'management' straight in the eye and said...I will do it this way because it is required by regulation.
If you don't agree, send me a telex accordingly, signed by the chief pilot/dir ops/manager quality control (etc.) that specifically says ...OK to go.
So far, (except for two occasions), my telex 'in' file is empty.
Why am I not surprised?
When 'management' has to sign their name to a planned questionable operation, they hide under their desks, nowhere to be found.
Make the system work for you, not against you.
Just the simple facts....period.
I have always looked the 'management' straight in the eye and said...I will do it this way because it is required by regulation.
If you don't agree, send me a telex accordingly, signed by the chief pilot/dir ops/manager quality control (etc.) that specifically says ...OK to go.
So far, (except for two occasions), my telex 'in' file is empty.
Why am I not surprised?
When 'management' has to sign their name to a planned questionable operation, they hide under their desks, nowhere to be found.
Make the system work for you, not against you.
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Caractacus, to answer some of your questions.
1) None in the Professional sense. The capt is responsible for the legal and safe operation of the flight. But the capt has to be sure he is 100% copper-bottomed correct if the decision is likely to be contentious, and few complex decisions are which puts ahuge amount of pressure on him. Remember the manager may have responsibility for the pilots contract, two matters that seem on the surface to be unconnected but in rality sometimes are not.
2) "Do you have any idea of how much your decision cost us? Don't you understand we are a lo co operation ?" etc. However a responsinle Flt Ops inspector will pick up the fact that all defects miraculously occur at base and instruct that some are found downroute to more accurately reflect the statistical probability...(if you work under an honest Aviation Authority)
And Sunfish, my Capt and I once did precisely this with a company (now thankfully gone) well known for ignoring its Ops manual when convenient, and in referral to a quite specific paragraph in the FTL scheme the FOD faxed back "We do not apply this paragraph in our Ops Manual". Gospel! Even so, if we'd been picked up by the Authority the capt would still have been guilty as he knew this was illegal and a fax won't change that.
Moral, if you don't trust the management, (or your CAA) leave!
1) None in the Professional sense. The capt is responsible for the legal and safe operation of the flight. But the capt has to be sure he is 100% copper-bottomed correct if the decision is likely to be contentious, and few complex decisions are which puts ahuge amount of pressure on him. Remember the manager may have responsibility for the pilots contract, two matters that seem on the surface to be unconnected but in rality sometimes are not.
2) "Do you have any idea of how much your decision cost us? Don't you understand we are a lo co operation ?" etc. However a responsinle Flt Ops inspector will pick up the fact that all defects miraculously occur at base and instruct that some are found downroute to more accurately reflect the statistical probability...(if you work under an honest Aviation Authority)
And Sunfish, my Capt and I once did precisely this with a company (now thankfully gone) well known for ignoring its Ops manual when convenient, and in referral to a quite specific paragraph in the FTL scheme the FOD faxed back "We do not apply this paragraph in our Ops Manual". Gospel! Even so, if we'd been picked up by the Authority the capt would still have been guilty as he knew this was illegal and a fax won't change that.
Moral, if you don't trust the management, (or your CAA) leave!
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Engineers suffer the same problem too. Some do succumb to management pressure (often the younger ones). As 411a says, if you are with-in the regulations no manager will give the OK with their name signed to it. That is when you know you are in the right.
I have also had many a heated discussion with other airlines' airport managers to get the aircraft away, "it will be OK" they say, but they have little knowledge of the consequences to the aircraft if you heed their instructions. Threats from management of loss of promotion prospects/job is a form of bullying that should not be tolerated.
I have also had many a heated discussion with other airlines' airport managers to get the aircraft away, "it will be OK" they say, but they have little knowledge of the consequences to the aircraft if you heed their instructions. Threats from management of loss of promotion prospects/job is a form of bullying that should not be tolerated.
I agree entirely with the previous posts..
In reply to your queries Caractacus.......
1...With regard to the safe conduct of a flight, no one has legal authority over the Captain. Others may direct where and when the flight operates but may not override his /her legal obligations.
2...Management can/does try to influence a Captains decisions. It comes with the turf. I always tried to cater to managements wishes subject to 1 above. I always believed it was part of my job bearing in mind that I only answered to my superiors in Flight Dept.
The degree of pressure that can be applied usually gets down to how strong your union is.
3..With regard to the BA incident,I am not familiar with the facts and can not pass comment, suffice to say that usually there are a number of options available. Some will be wrong decisions and some will be correct. However only one will be the best decision, and that is always the one you strive for. I would suspect that if the Capt concerned had wanted to divert en route he would have been able to justify it.
At the end of the day if an accident is avoided then the decision was OK.
4... The buck stops with whoever has broken the law.
I suspect the comments by the Lady Manager may have more to do with creating an impression with the other person. All the Captains I know did not/ would not answer to Commercial Dept.
As 411A has said, requesting instructions in hard copy usually sor
ts a lot of problems
Minor suggestion.....I always kept a copy of the trip documentation for myself instead of returning it to the company.
That way if there was any problem, I always had the docs in my possession. There is NO substitute for being able to go into a formal enquiry being the one with the actual docs considering some organisations ability to "lose" relevent paperwork.
In reply to your queries Caractacus.......
1...With regard to the safe conduct of a flight, no one has legal authority over the Captain. Others may direct where and when the flight operates but may not override his /her legal obligations.
2...Management can/does try to influence a Captains decisions. It comes with the turf. I always tried to cater to managements wishes subject to 1 above. I always believed it was part of my job bearing in mind that I only answered to my superiors in Flight Dept.
The degree of pressure that can be applied usually gets down to how strong your union is.
3..With regard to the BA incident,I am not familiar with the facts and can not pass comment, suffice to say that usually there are a number of options available. Some will be wrong decisions and some will be correct. However only one will be the best decision, and that is always the one you strive for. I would suspect that if the Capt concerned had wanted to divert en route he would have been able to justify it.
At the end of the day if an accident is avoided then the decision was OK.
4... The buck stops with whoever has broken the law.
I suspect the comments by the Lady Manager may have more to do with creating an impression with the other person. All the Captains I know did not/ would not answer to Commercial Dept.
As 411A has said, requesting instructions in hard copy usually sor
ts a lot of problems
Minor suggestion.....I always kept a copy of the trip documentation for myself instead of returning it to the company.
That way if there was any problem, I always had the docs in my possession. There is NO substitute for being able to go into a formal enquiry being the one with the actual docs considering some organisations ability to "lose" relevent paperwork.
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411A is right, I have used that technique a few times and it always works.
However I am a little concerned that he is using telex as a communications method... I though all telex machines were scrapped eons ago... but maybe the L1011 has a built-in one...
However I am a little concerned that he is using telex as a communications method... I though all telex machines were scrapped eons ago... but maybe the L1011 has a built-in one...
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A Captain is an airline manager! A Captain has a role that is defined in statute and within a companies operating structure that could not be classed as anything other than management.
1) I am not sure what you mean by what "legal authority" does an airline manager have over an airline Captain ?
Within the companies operating manual will be an authority structure that defines who the Captain is responsible to for the purposes of their employment within that organisation. Normally this will be the "Chief Pilot". Indeed and notwithstanding the mangement gradient, the Captain will often only be responsible to that office even though they will often have administrative contact with other offices.
The legal framework that a Captain operates within is as laid down by the regulatory authorities. Other departments may well be responsible for propogating and notifying that information and for ensuring it is complied with, but it obviously falls to the Captain of the aircraft to ensure it is ultimately complied with.
2) This is something of an academic arguement. Threats and action are two different things. The effectiveness of a threat rather depends on the recipients reaction to it. You might argue what threats could a Captain make to other managers ? How long is a piece of string and what is the point ? It is important to understand that an airline is like most other commercial businesses. Many things are not black and white. There may be any number of interpretations in a given situation. Someone has to be responsible for collating a lot of information and making the ultimate decision. That decision may solicit a great deal of input. There will often be pressure applied to influence a decision. The captain is usually the final arbiter or judge of the action to be taken irrespective of any external pressure ( threats or otherwise).
3) I would be spectacularly fed up if my command decisions were regularly or even occaisionaly subject to the poorly informed musings of newspaper reporters or even the readers of PPRuNe. So I won't even begin to speculate on a specific case on which my knowledge is based on similar sources. I would however state that Captains every day have to make often complex and difficult decisions based on varied criteria usually within pressured time constraints. It may be easy to take one isolated part of a complex set of considerations and state that something could have been done differently or better. It may even be the case that on reflection that proves so. However the real world combination of safety, statute, commercial realities, experience, discussion and information collation, subsequent effect, procedure, and even gut reaction will result in an ultimate decision for any given occurence.
The Captain will endorse the final decision but it will usually have been compiled after input from other crewmembers, ground based advisors ( ATC etc ) and sometimes after consultation with the other departments within the company. That decision may in itself be subject to modification or reversal depending on the subsequent dynamic. Captains are normally appointed to their rank by virtue of their experience and familiarity of the rules they operate under and the commercial expectations of their employers. As such any decisions they make will normally be the best they could realistically be expected to make in the circumstances. Of course it is ridiculous to suggest that all their decisions are correct or could not have been more appropriate based on a detailed analysis of the events at a later date, but that is true in any walk of life.
4) Where does the "buck stop" ? In reality it stops at every point in the chain. Each individual has a responsibility to ensure that any errors or omissions are checked at their own point of responsibility. Despite the fact that there are defined managers ( in this case the Captain), there is a collective and interactive responsibility these days for the safe operation of an aircraft or indeed any complex structure. Weakness and failure to address and identify these two factors in the past have led to the prominance and importance of CRM as an effective and vital tool in the safe conduct of operations these days. Flexibility, discussion, communication and an open safety culture are the realities in modern and effective companies. Threats and intimidation certainly still exist, but very few companies can survive a serious accident or incident and only the most stupid would jeopardise their survival by allowing such practices to dictate their day to day operations. That applies to both companies and individuals.
1) I am not sure what you mean by what "legal authority" does an airline manager have over an airline Captain ?
Within the companies operating manual will be an authority structure that defines who the Captain is responsible to for the purposes of their employment within that organisation. Normally this will be the "Chief Pilot". Indeed and notwithstanding the mangement gradient, the Captain will often only be responsible to that office even though they will often have administrative contact with other offices.
The legal framework that a Captain operates within is as laid down by the regulatory authorities. Other departments may well be responsible for propogating and notifying that information and for ensuring it is complied with, but it obviously falls to the Captain of the aircraft to ensure it is ultimately complied with.
2) This is something of an academic arguement. Threats and action are two different things. The effectiveness of a threat rather depends on the recipients reaction to it. You might argue what threats could a Captain make to other managers ? How long is a piece of string and what is the point ? It is important to understand that an airline is like most other commercial businesses. Many things are not black and white. There may be any number of interpretations in a given situation. Someone has to be responsible for collating a lot of information and making the ultimate decision. That decision may solicit a great deal of input. There will often be pressure applied to influence a decision. The captain is usually the final arbiter or judge of the action to be taken irrespective of any external pressure ( threats or otherwise).
3) I would be spectacularly fed up if my command decisions were regularly or even occaisionaly subject to the poorly informed musings of newspaper reporters or even the readers of PPRuNe. So I won't even begin to speculate on a specific case on which my knowledge is based on similar sources. I would however state that Captains every day have to make often complex and difficult decisions based on varied criteria usually within pressured time constraints. It may be easy to take one isolated part of a complex set of considerations and state that something could have been done differently or better. It may even be the case that on reflection that proves so. However the real world combination of safety, statute, commercial realities, experience, discussion and information collation, subsequent effect, procedure, and even gut reaction will result in an ultimate decision for any given occurence.
The Captain will endorse the final decision but it will usually have been compiled after input from other crewmembers, ground based advisors ( ATC etc ) and sometimes after consultation with the other departments within the company. That decision may in itself be subject to modification or reversal depending on the subsequent dynamic. Captains are normally appointed to their rank by virtue of their experience and familiarity of the rules they operate under and the commercial expectations of their employers. As such any decisions they make will normally be the best they could realistically be expected to make in the circumstances. Of course it is ridiculous to suggest that all their decisions are correct or could not have been more appropriate based on a detailed analysis of the events at a later date, but that is true in any walk of life.
4) Where does the "buck stop" ? In reality it stops at every point in the chain. Each individual has a responsibility to ensure that any errors or omissions are checked at their own point of responsibility. Despite the fact that there are defined managers ( in this case the Captain), there is a collective and interactive responsibility these days for the safe operation of an aircraft or indeed any complex structure. Weakness and failure to address and identify these two factors in the past have led to the prominance and importance of CRM as an effective and vital tool in the safe conduct of operations these days. Flexibility, discussion, communication and an open safety culture are the realities in modern and effective companies. Threats and intimidation certainly still exist, but very few companies can survive a serious accident or incident and only the most stupid would jeopardise their survival by allowing such practices to dictate their day to day operations. That applies to both companies and individuals.
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Lets call it by the correct name.... BULLYING
This happens in all forms of employment, do it our way or else you will never get promoted/rewarded/a new contract. Some of us do use the method of requesting written instructions successfully but others lose their jobs!! A well known bizjet company is famous for sacking anyone who is independant. Oh yes, and a famous LoCo unit really lets people have a say. This is a good thread to remind people that despite orders from above, the captain is responsible.
This happens in all forms of employment, do it our way or else you will never get promoted/rewarded/a new contract. Some of us do use the method of requesting written instructions successfully but others lose their jobs!! A well known bizjet company is famous for sacking anyone who is independant. Oh yes, and a famous LoCo unit really lets people have a say. This is a good thread to remind people that despite orders from above, the captain is responsible.
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<<I though all telex machines were scrapped eons ago... but maybe the L1011 has a built-in one...>>
Sadly MOR, that really was how long ago that the company was completely co-operative.
Oddly enough, it was the same company on both occasions.
1. Aircraft re-directed to short flight after being fueled for long one.
This would result in an overweight landing, so to avoid de-fueling (not possible anyway at the location, except by opening the dump valves on the ground...), requested dispensation from the DGCA as well for the planned flight.
2. Due to extreme crew shortage, requested by the company to exceed the stipulated monthly flying hour limit by 20%...which I agreed to do, provided it was sanctioned by the DGCA.
Surprisingly enough, the DGCA replied within twenty minutes giving the OK.
I would expect that this particular company was glad to have the DGCA in their pocket...so to speak.
Now then, a very few younger guys (and a few older ones as well) expect to maintain a hard line with the company, casually leaning back in their seat and thinking...'I is the boss here, so I will tell the company where to shove it.'
Sooner or later, they have a reality check.
Airline management nearly always have the last say, like it or not.
A two way street where the Commander gets run over by the cement truck, more often than not.
Sadly MOR, that really was how long ago that the company was completely co-operative.
Oddly enough, it was the same company on both occasions.
1. Aircraft re-directed to short flight after being fueled for long one.
This would result in an overweight landing, so to avoid de-fueling (not possible anyway at the location, except by opening the dump valves on the ground...
), requested dispensation from the DGCA as well for the planned flight.2. Due to extreme crew shortage, requested by the company to exceed the stipulated monthly flying hour limit by 20%...which I agreed to do, provided it was sanctioned by the DGCA.
Surprisingly enough, the DGCA replied within twenty minutes giving the OK.
I would expect that this particular company was glad to have the DGCA in their pocket...so to speak.
Now then, a very few younger guys (and a few older ones as well) expect to maintain a hard line with the company, casually leaning back in their seat and thinking...'I is the boss here, so I will tell the company where to shove it.'
Sooner or later, they have a reality check.
Airline management nearly always have the last say, like it or not.
A two way street where the Commander gets run over by the cement truck, more often than not.
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Pretty much the nature of business.
I once was placed in a situation where a particularly officious fleet manager was insisting I take an aircraft with 15 deferred defects. Among the defects were inop wx radar, inop engine anti-ice on two engines, no APU, and a sticky bleed air valve. I declined as the combination of defects was too much for the route (across the Pyrenees in summer - Cb city).
Anyway, looking back in the tech log, it was obvious this aircraft had some serious issues that engineering hadn't addressed properly. So I made photocopies of all the relevant tech log/ADD entries and kept them in a "safe place". When summoned to Head Office to get my butt kicked, I mentioned to the fleet manager that I had copies of these documents, and would be quite happy to send them on to the CAA.
Never heard another word.
My only regret is that I had to work for such ineffectual managers, who were so easily bullied by senior management.
I once was placed in a situation where a particularly officious fleet manager was insisting I take an aircraft with 15 deferred defects. Among the defects were inop wx radar, inop engine anti-ice on two engines, no APU, and a sticky bleed air valve. I declined as the combination of defects was too much for the route (across the Pyrenees in summer - Cb city).
Anyway, looking back in the tech log, it was obvious this aircraft had some serious issues that engineering hadn't addressed properly. So I made photocopies of all the relevant tech log/ADD entries and kept them in a "safe place". When summoned to Head Office to get my butt kicked, I mentioned to the fleet manager that I had copies of these documents, and would be quite happy to send them on to the CAA.
Never heard another word.
My only regret is that I had to work for such ineffectual managers, who were so easily bullied by senior management.
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411a,
You what??!!
That telex from "management" does not hold up in court if you, heaven forbid, end up in a tight spot after a "questionable" decision. "Management" will tell the court that you are always responsible, no matter what an office-nobody says (ie chief-pilot et al).... and you know what? They're right! You and you alone are responsible for what happens between doors closed and doors opened. You're not a "busdriver".
Sometimes I sincerely doubt your "credentials".. or maybe you're just close to your pension and don't care what happens to the rest of us...
...If you don't agree, send me a telex accordingly, signed by the chief pilot/dir ops/manager quality control (etc.) that specifically says ...OK to go.
That telex from "management" does not hold up in court if you, heaven forbid, end up in a tight spot after a "questionable" decision. "Management" will tell the court that you are always responsible, no matter what an office-nobody says (ie chief-pilot et al).... and you know what? They're right! You and you alone are responsible for what happens between doors closed and doors opened. You're not a "busdriver".
Sometimes I sincerely doubt your "credentials".. or maybe you're just close to your pension and don't care what happens to the rest of us...
Está servira para distraerle.
It soon became apparent to me that in the UK, management of small airlines believes that the Captain should bow down to its dictates. Accordingly, I made the telephonic acquaintance of a couple of CAA gentlemen at The Beehive. When faced with a managerial arguement of a suitable operational nature, either in person, or over the telephone or radio; I would simply ask Ops, management or whomever to telephone the CAA departmental head concerned and get the okay from him. I never had a problem although from time to time I was just a weeny bit unpopular at HQ.
Fireloop. I think you missed the point. When you are working in a third world nation without a union, you are on your own. When the big man tells you to do something illegal, you call his bluff. Ask him very politely to send/ACARS written approval to break the law, and ask him to put his name etc on it. This is the only way to get them off your back, as they will not want anything to do with the matter and will back down. If they don't, you make the right descision (do what you think is right!!!)and have a bit of paper work to support your case, to the CAA etc if the company turns on you. Sometimes saying no is not good enough. Some will try and bully you into breaking the law, but when asked to officially sanction it, they will back down.
Now take a bex and have a little lie down.
Don
Now take a bex and have a little lie down.
Don
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donpizmeov
I have worked in "third world" nations and I've never, ever, been a member of a union. At one time "management" has asked me to take a C172 across 300NM of water without any nav-radios or working ADF equipment. I declined and packed my bags... so I guess I do know what I'm talking about! Furthermore, I don't think there's anything wrong with my reading comprehension...
I fully understand that sometimes one has to resort to "tricks" in order to get things done.. or not as the case maybe. Tricks are however, off-limits as far as _my_ safety is concerned... it's my bum on the line. I don't care how many pax are seated behind that cockpit door... I want to come home in 1 piece. Some of you are betting on "management" to back down when asked for papers with a signature. I'd love to see the day when they actually send it to you.... now what are you going to do? Are you going to hide behind that fax and take a broken airplane across the pond? Is your life worth this little?
I hope I never end up in the back of your aircraft.. or much worse, next to you.
When you are working in a third world nation without a union...
I fully understand that sometimes one has to resort to "tricks" in order to get things done.. or not as the case maybe. Tricks are however, off-limits as far as _my_ safety is concerned... it's my bum on the line. I don't care how many pax are seated behind that cockpit door... I want to come home in 1 piece. Some of you are betting on "management" to back down when asked for papers with a signature. I'd love to see the day when they actually send it to you.... now what are you going to do? Are you going to hide behind that fax and take a broken airplane across the pond? Is your life worth this little?
I hope I never end up in the back of your aircraft.. or much worse, next to you.
Hmmm seems the bex did not work fireloop. If you reread my post, (would add pics for you but am unable), you will see that I have said that if they do send the offending piece of paper, you do what you think is right....don't know how else to put it really...don't break the law..does that help, and then use the piece of paper to help you should the Sh@t hit the fan with the company. Not really all that hard I don't think. These tricks (as you put it) are another way of achieving your aim, whilst using all available resourses. But I will of course bow down to your vast experience. Those 172s can be a real handful, and you would not find me near that much water unless vast quantities of whisky were involved. Must have been quite frightening!
Yours humbly
Don
Yours humbly
Don
Last edited by donpizmeov; 2nd May 2005 at 17:53.
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Fireloop,
I worked in 3rd world nations too.
It is exactley as others in this tread discribed it.
I lost several colleages who did not had the guts/minds/ability or whatever to say NO to management because they were to tired/sick/p00ped/overworked to do their job coherently.
The captain, be it on a 172 or A380 must have the final say in how he/she intends to conduct the flight. Our tasks may be second guessed by those in management but it will never be more than that. Second guessing. The first and only right decision is the one made by the Captain/Flight crew that brings those entrusted in his/her/their safekeeping home in one piece.
Chill out and have some respect. The world would be a much nicer place if we treat each other cordially.
I worked in 3rd world nations too.
It is exactley as others in this tread discribed it.
I lost several colleages who did not had the guts/minds/ability or whatever to say NO to management because they were to tired/sick/p00ped/overworked to do their job coherently.
The captain, be it on a 172 or A380 must have the final say in how he/she intends to conduct the flight. Our tasks may be second guessed by those in management but it will never be more than that. Second guessing. The first and only right decision is the one made by the Captain/Flight crew that brings those entrusted in his/her/their safekeeping home in one piece.
Chill out and have some respect. The world would be a much nicer place if we treat each other cordially.