Alcohol tests in AMS

[JackOffallTrades]

Pointer and Flying Torquewrench,


The AMS crew center security is in between 2 glass walls/doors. So the public COULD see the crew being tested (and frisked) if they wanted.

Bit like being in a goldfish bowl.

I have been through there several times and the experience is not humane.

Been told to go back and remove items of uniform in front of every one till I no longer set the machine of, by some jobsworth. Being prodded and frisked in public is bad enough without making a breath test public too.

Some code of conduct needs to be enforced.

[Sjakie]

Concerning cannabis-testing: no, there's no on-the-spot cannabis testing.

Off topic now...:

First of all, according the W.H.O., alcohol is considered an addictive drug, whilst cannabis is not.

Mind you, Holland is Europe's number one country with the most relaxed drugs policy, at the same time having the least amount of hard drug addicts, drugs users and related drugs problems.

The harder, stricter and unforgivable the policy concerning (soft) drugs, the easier a government will lose grip on the situation.

Safe, sober flying!

[Falconpilot]

Geee!!!
Came back on my post after a few flights and little rest...And I'm amazed by all the replies.

First and above all, it has to be clear cut that drinking and flying are not going together, and this post had no other purpose than give a warning to what might happen when you go through the security check in AMS.

Secondly, zeeeeee "check" itself was done on first floor security door way, at the crew centre... And when you know the place, you are in view of all the pax behind those glasses.

Thirdly, the crew passed the test succesfully... And that is the most important think. Even after a W-E in AMS, you can still be and act as a real aviation professionnal. What is seen in your replies is that it is still a sensible subject, probably because our journalist friends are very keen on jumping on such an "easy subject". Our pax also are very keen on that matter.

Incredibly enough, in some newspapers, you can read " a Cpt from.@#^% company has been caught drunk while going to his aircraft..."
Manchester, London, Hamburg, Berlin, all airports where alcohol testing are regularly made.

Where is the limit?
When I have a drink with my friends, they sensibly most of the time ask when is my next flight..."12 hours minimum recommended between the bottle and the throttles, 24 hours is what I do" is invariably my answer. And I'm not a heavy drinker.

As a cpt, it is my responsability to have my crew fit to fly, if I see/smell that there is some alcohol involved in one's behaviour, I will gently but fermly advise that person to report in sick for that day. And I will speak to him/her in private. So that nobody else knows. Have a reserve called...First I save my licence, but the person's licence as well, plus a lot of problems avoided. We are all humans, we all do mistakes, as long as we learn from them and correct them.

Have fun and enjoy your flights.

[Pointer]

JackOffAllTrades ;

I know AMS very..very well, and to say that the security is in publicview is a bit exaggerated. eventhough there is a glass door there never seems to be anyone paying attention to it, the passage way to the Pax terminal is narrower anyway. But it is the only place they can do it because of the legal obligation. when still in the crewcenter you might have no "intention" to fly as when you are passing the security area, you have.

In The netherlands there is no drug problem with Cannabis, and yes it is part of the drugscreening to my knowledge. But as it is legal it is about the same attraction level as lets say a pack of sigarets? it just seem to attrack different people.

Pointer

[nginear]

Why only are flight crews being tested? Surely if flight crew then all the professions subject to the new laws should be tested. Just having a sober crew does not mean that the engineer working on the aircraft prior to flight is under the limit nor does it necessarily mean that the air traffic controllers controlling the flight is under the limit.
Also regarding this new law I do not think that air traffic engineers are included. Why? The could say screw up the ILS or DME during LVP's. Dangerous.

[Flying Torquewrench]

Jackofalltrades,

Worked four years in AMS passed throught the crew centre every time i went to work so i know how it looks like.

Still don't see the point why everybody is so upset. If you got nothing to hyde thsn you have got bothing to fear. It is as simple as that.

[Nippy]

You can breath test all day long in my book, if you have nothing to hide then no problem- however, nobody should be subjected to a test in public OR in front of colleagues, it should be a private matter conducted in a professional manner!
Now where did I put that stella?

As a cpt, it is my responsability to have my crew fit to fly, if I see/smell that there is some alcohol involved in one\'s behaviour, I will gently but fermly advise that person to report in sick for that day. And I will speak to him/her in private. So that nobody else knows. Have a reserve called...First I save my licence, but the person\'s licence as well, plus a lot of problems avoided.

I,m sorry FalconPilot, but smelling alcohol on someones breath and asking them to call in sick is just burying your head in the sand. It is down right irrisponsible to act in such a way, what happens the next time they are under the influence and the next cpt does not notice? I can read the headlines now "We knew he had a problem but we wanted to save his licence"

Nuff said

[ILS 119.5]

Because the limit is so low I'm all in favour of stopping the crime before it happens. I would certainly advise my f/o to go sick as I am a true believer in teamwork and looking after your own. I do not believe in compromising safety but would rather another company employee does not lose their job through stupidity. Learn by a mistake and do not let it happen again in my view.
As said earlier by "nginear" it is not just the flight crew who need targeting for breath tests.

[Max Angle]

and to say that the security is in publicview is a bit exaggerated.

As I said in a previous post it depends on your definition of pubic. I would regard a test conducted in front of the 5-6 security people, all of my crew, and all of the people in the queue plus anyone else who happened to be standing by the glass on either side (and you can bet that in that situation there would be a few) to be conducted in public. I have no problem with being tested as I have, and have always had, nothing to hide but the way the Dutch are doing it is not on.

[flapsforty]

it depends on your definition of pubic

Not sure what that has to do with anything Max angle.

But you're right, they are being rather overzealous at the crew centre these days. Annoying is putting it mildly.
New directives after the recent diamond heist is what's behind.

Piltdown man, thank you for the compliment.

[dnx]

about alcohol testing

Just want to put in my 2 bits.
First about the alcohol testing in AMS.
Whats the big deal? They where tested "in public" and they passed the test "in public". At least they could show that they are professionals who take their jobs serious. Why kick and scream about that? You know what is really annoying? To get questioned, interviewed, prodded, hassled and treated like a criminal every time you enter the USA as a flightcrew member.
Secondly about the cannabis.
Contrary what the general public believes it is not legal in the Netherlands. The Dutch have just decided to decriminalize possesion of small quantities of the stuff for personal use. So they won't arrest you if you don't cause anyother disturbances while you smoke your pot and mind your own business.
Whether you agree or disagree (as i do in this matter) with the Dutch, they did manage to keep this aspect or narcotic (ab)use under controle. There are far less drug related diseases and crime in the Netherlands than in other countries with a more restrictive regime.

[vunzke]

well...at least it seems that we all agree that noone should drink and drive/fly/sail/bike/.... whatever with alcohol in its blood....but the problem seems to be the fact people can see you beiing tested.....
Really wonder what the big deal is....if busdrivers get stopped in traffic when theres an alcohol test noone bothers eventhough the pax are already on board and the driver is in the drivers seat.... Lets face it were all busdrivers on a higher level (in some cases busdrivers even seem to make more money than we do)... the times that beiing a pilot was something to brag about are long gone.... (pilots only do average 11 sessions on a sim and get going while the bustraining is somewhat like 20...)...

Alcoholtesting is simply OK since apparently thers still some morons who cant control themselves... so lets just get it over with...pass....smile at the public ....and get on with our jobs.... (air)busdriving.....

[doglegfinal]

But ehhm, does anyone know what kind of questions they asked the crew on this alcoholtest ?

[Buster the Bear]

As a passenger, one hopes all the crew abide by the alcohol hours limitation?

I certainly do not want to be flown, or served by a pi$$ head. I actually value my life!

What is the problem being tested in public? UNLESS YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE?

[ILS 119.5]

The problem with being tested in view of the public is humiliation. It is not that there is anything to hide but it seems that our profession is now subjected to the new legislation and we are being targeted for safety reasons (nothing wrong with that). However, all professional people deserve some dignity within their jobs. It is not fair to publicy humiliate someone if they are proved positive, and they are not proved positive until the blood test results. It is also not good news for the airline involved and promotes fear amongst the passengers. Pre flight testing is good but not in front of the passengers. Please people do not make our great profession into suspected criminals. The new legislation is good but the more it is highlighted then less people will apply, and we will not get the best people. The whole profession will end up at the bottom of the ladder. At the moment we are all suspected and I'm glad I do not fly into AMS. When I fly back to the UK tomorrow I wonder if they will check me for fatigue. Because I will have to drive more than 100 miles after flyng for more than 9 hours throughout the night & maybe another 2 hours to get to my car. That will work out at about 16/17 hrs with other things. Will I be knackered? Yes! Totally! Could I crash my car on the way home? Yes! Easily! What is the safest form of travel? Aeroplanes. Why? because we are monitered so well but not publicly. What is unsafe? Driving. Why? Because we are not monitered. I spend 9/10 hrs flying with no worries only to have the last 2 hours of my working day being the most dangerous of my life.
Finally, I have to say the limits are right but the implementation is wrong. Maybe it will change, after all, metal knives are back on board. In 10 years we may get back to landing drinks.

[Ignition Override]

1) Buster the Bear: regarding the charade of checking flightcrews in public, having some diplomacy and class (good manners) doesn't cost anything, therefore checking crews in private still allows them to hide nothing, but preserves diginity. At the very end of a Pink Floyd song (Dark Side of the Moon album), someone said "Good manners don't cost nothing".

2) As for the other, sensitive subject regarding checking womens' bodies...my wife and I like Schipol Airport and have flown round trip on KLM from the US at least nine times.

On the last visit in October, my wife was checked TWICE by female security staff, in front of everybody. Once at the main security entrance, then at the gate.

Both times, she was never told that she had the option to do this behind a privacy curtain.

She was rather upset by this the second time within a ten- minute period, and the security vrouw (woman) at the departure gate tried, in a defensive tone of voice, to explain that she was required to do blah, blah, or whatever. Finally, my wife said, ok, ok, just get it over with so we can get on the plane before the gate agents are ready to close the cabin door. This flight was not on KLM, but I wonder if the women staff simply don't want to bother to explain the choices, because it might slow down their jobs.

This was the first time that my wife had ever been very irritated by anything there, and luckily was the first time we had noticed an inconsistent policy of anything at Amsterdam's Schipol Airport. Simply the fact that the women's hands were all over her body in public could embarass any women. I don't tolerate it from a man, whether I'm in uniform at work, or not, and never will .No fruitc@%e or "regular" guy is allowed to subject me to such petty chicken$h1t in public.

The insulin pump which my wife wears (type 1 diabetic) often triggers the x-ray machine.

[Hangin' on]

The F/O and I having been checked (shoes off etc.) by Atlanta security THREE TIMES between the check in desk and the aircraft AS DEADHEADING CREW frankly my sympathy meter is reading zero...........

[cavortingcheetah]

The last time I was in at AMS, inbound to the UK as a passenger; I was searched at the gate. The security guard took some pleasure in grabbing my belt at the back and pulling it sharply upwards. He knew exactly what he was doing and indeed, grinned as he did it. This caused considerable groinal and groanal discomfort. The searcher, together with the rest of the security guards at the gate, cared neither a whit nor a jot for my discomfort and subsequent complaint. Indeed, they thought my situation very amusing. I found it quite humiliating to be in such a painful state in front of my fellow passengers and, as I am sure you will understand, had to refrain from reorganizing fishing tackle in public until I could hobble to a private place. Next time I pass through AMS and am required to be searched (I have a metal hip which sometimes bleeps the bleeper) I shall ask for a supervisor or a police officer to be present. My bet says that they'll make me miss my flight.
I have absolutely no objection to being searched or breathalyzed, either as operating crew or as a passenger.
I do believe, however, that such actions should be undertaken with consideration, decorum and respect. It seems to me that the Dutch at Schipol are proving themselves incapable of such a basic human nicety of action..

[xetroV]

The security guards in AMS really are a mixed bag. Some of them are nice and professional, others are typical @ssholes who utterly enjoy their temporary position of "power". Still not nearly as bad as the security jerks on the other side of the atlantic, though. (I'll never forget the humiliation I went through at MEM, where I was loudly demanded to take off my shoes, belt, jacket, and watch in front of all passengers, and then reprimanded even more loudly when I made the grave mistake to say something in Dutch to my collegue sitting next to me. It seemed like a surrealistic scene from Candid Camera, but it was all too real, unfortunately.)

Last time I saw someone get breathalized at AMS, it was behind the curtain right next to the security checkpoint. (In fact, I have only witnessed someone being breathalized there once, so this is not quite a valid statistical sample. ) Also there are some nearby corridors which are invisible to the public, so there is plenty of opportunity to demand the checking to take place outside the public view of the security fishbowl.

[cavortingcheetah]

I take your points.
I am off to The States next week. I haven't been back since 9/11. Perhaps I am in for a wake up call?
I always have trouble with immigration over there. My ancestors fought against the British in the War of Independence. I always have to remind the Hispanic speaking immigration officer that I have more right to be in the States than he does. Oh dear, that always causes problems. Oh yes, and I remind him in Spanish as well, just to be quite sure he understands. None of them really can in English.
The photographic scenario sounds more like Schindler's List than Candid Camera to me; but I suppose it might jolly them along a bit if they thought they were on TV.
Totsiens:cc