O'Leary going to Jail?
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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By the way, I wish the man no personal harm...
...Now, if I had my way, I would h*** d*** and q****** him, but then, I come from another planet.
Like you, I am not anything like a lawyer and I believe I have a little common sense... ...The Law is an ass, said someone.
...Now, if I had my way, I would h*** d*** and q****** him, but then, I come from another planet.
Like you, I am not anything like a lawyer and I believe I have a little common sense... ...The Law is an ass, said someone.
Whilst I have no admiration for the fella, I can understand why he feels so cocky when he reads rubbish such as that load of contradictory rubbish quoted above. There's nothing worse than a bunch of 'barrack room lawyers' holding kangaroo court. If you could only see yourselves and how ridiculous you appear to anyone with an ounce of common sense.
The law may be an ass but it's only because it takes one to know one!
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As for Maxalt, well, let me tell you squire, I am glad that I never needed to work for an airline that I was ashamed of. I was proud to be with the ones which employed me. I would certainly not write the way some people write, even if I felt that way. Can't see what politics has to do with it either.
Do you fly aircraft for a living? If so, could you please tell me who your wonderful employers are so that I can apply there?
Have you worked at Ruinair?
Since you use the past tense - are you no longer employed? How long back are we talking here? The Golden Years of Aviation perhaps - the days Peacock longs for, back when he was treated with "respect"?
If you were being victimised or otherwise abused by an employer you say you would keep your criticism to yourself?
Fair enough...but why should everyone else? If you don't like that - perhaps you should just exercise the same policy toward your colleagues as you do your employers - just bite yer lip.
As for politics - it has everything to do with it, as you would quickly realise if you lived in Ireland.
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The Golden Years of Aviation perhaps - the days Peacock longs for, back when he was treated with "respect"?
There is a big difference between being admired, envied or even held in awe and simply being respected.
Some young guys these days seem to think that if they are simply given the same level of respect as a bus driver then that is something less than they deserve.
In the golden years we got the same respect we get today. It is simply that the idea of flying is more mundane today and the awe of the uniformed gold ringed grey haired Captain has disapeared.......Thankfully.
Respect is earned. Thus, it is like any other part of one's income............variable depending on who hands it out.
Regards,
DFC
There is a big difference between being admired, envied or even held in awe and simply being respected.
Some young guys these days seem to think that if they are simply given the same level of respect as a bus driver then that is something less than they deserve.
In the golden years we got the same respect we get today. It is simply that the idea of flying is more mundane today and the awe of the uniformed gold ringed grey haired Captain has disapeared.......Thankfully.
Respect is earned. Thus, it is like any other part of one's income............variable depending on who hands it out.
Regards,
DFC
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Some time ago, a Radio Interviewer on Irish Radio asked MOL what the greatest risk to Ryanair was. He replied:-
The biggest risk to Ryananr would be if we start to believe our own BULLSH*T!!!!
It would appear that Mr. O'Leary has fallen into that trap.
The biggest risk to Ryananr would be if we start to believe our own BULLSH*T!!!!
It would appear that Mr. O'Leary has fallen into that trap.
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Look at ALPA/APA in the USA.
A more militant lot would be hard to find, yet do you really think they are clamoring for higher wages today?
You say in your profile, you're a Captain. Put your money where your mouth is, and tell us what airline you fly for.
Are you one of those who flies for an ALPA carrier and doesn't pay union dues, yet enjoys all the hard-earned benefits that are paid for by other pilots? Kinda like a pseudo-scab?
Tell us what airline carrier you fly for, 411.
So, you think you know all about the cause and effect of our industry, do you? Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, part of the reason for the immense pressure to lower wages is due in large part to LWC? That's Low Wage Carriers, not Low Cost Carriers -- their costs are, for the most part, the same as the Legacy carriers, except for the wages, so I prefer the term Low Wage Carrier.
As long as pilots are willing to fly for next to nothing, how do you expect the big carriers to compete? Do you think it's a coincidence that these low-wage carriers are not ALPA members or, have no union at all? Of course it isn't. Look at JetBlew; those guys sign a 5-year contract of employment. Do you think each individual pilot will be offered a renewal of his contract if he's heavily engaged in unionizing? Hardly.
In 2001, a First Officer with 7 years at one of the Legacy Carriers was making $170/hr. Now, I ask you, why would a pilot applicant choose to apply to say, JetBlew or AirTran, where the equivalent guy was making about $90/hr? Don't even try and tell me it's because the guy was clairvoyant and could see the trouble the Legacy carriers were in for. No, the answer is because he couldn't get a job at one of the legacy carriers and was all too happy just to get a job ANYWHERE, flying a JET!!!
This whole thing became a self-fulfilling prophecy. So, please, spare us the union-bashing. Unions as a whole, not just airline unions, are the reason in America, we ever had 40-hour work weeks, weekends off, vacations, health insurance, job protections, minimum wages, trip rigs, duty rigs, mandatory breaks, duty limits, etc, etc.
Don't forget 411, what airline do you fly for?
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Respect is earned. Thus, it is like any other part of one's income............variable depending on who hands it out.
Loyalty is for losers.
Its the New Deal.
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. . . . right on.
zehutiman wants 411 to break out of his closet and say his employer. (Why don't you 'zehutiman'?) You can only gauge the credentials of a poster, unless it's total crap, by reading the tone, and intuition tells us there are many idle or malicious infiltrators. Mind you, I do not count 'zehutiman' amongst them, (at least till 'CIA' appears in his profile). (Faint Georgian accent wafts in - "Thanks for nothing, mate.")
That flippancy aside, zehutiman speaks truth - how all of us in the western world who, collectively, fly or have flown for scores of carriers owe a huge debt of gratitude to the men who forced the largely unprincipled owners and operators to abide by, (as opposed to respect), hard fought terms and conditions. So much gained. So much lost.
Many a fine unionist now turns in his grave. If anyone can suggest mechanisms for reform that don't start in the parliament or the congress, let's hear them. (But please, not from the hardened or casual cynics who have nothing to contribute but resignation.)
That flippancy aside, zehutiman speaks truth - how all of us in the western world who, collectively, fly or have flown for scores of carriers owe a huge debt of gratitude to the men who forced the largely unprincipled owners and operators to abide by, (as opposed to respect), hard fought terms and conditions. So much gained. So much lost.
Many a fine unionist now turns in his grave. If anyone can suggest mechanisms for reform that don't start in the parliament or the congress, let's hear them. (But please, not from the hardened or casual cynics who have nothing to contribute but resignation.)
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Oh dear, I seem to have you in a snit, zehutiman.
Now, if you were a bright lad you would have known who I have worked for in the last 35 years (do a search, you might be surprised) but I can sure tell you one thing...
In 1983, about thirty ex-Braniff guys showed up at my employers door, all wanting jobs.
Then once again, in 1991, 'round about forty ex-Eastern Air Lines pilots came a knockin' on the same door, with hat in hand.
The one common demominator of the two...they were both ALPO represented carriers.
Good old ALPO didn't do much for these guys, now did they?
Silly lad, you don't know what you a a talkin' about.
Legacy carriers in the USA are doomed...simple as that.
And a large chunk of ALPO will go down the drain with 'em.
With ALPO, the gravy train has left the station.
Sadly, the guys in the organization haven't realized it yet.
Now, if you were a bright lad you would have known who I have worked for in the last 35 years (do a search, you might be surprised) but I can sure tell you one thing...
In 1983, about thirty ex-Braniff guys showed up at my employers door, all wanting jobs.
Then once again, in 1991, 'round about forty ex-Eastern Air Lines pilots came a knockin' on the same door, with hat in hand.
The one common demominator of the two...they were both ALPO represented carriers.
Good old ALPO didn't do much for these guys, now did they?
Silly lad, you don't know what you a a talkin' about.
Legacy carriers in the USA are doomed...simple as that.
And a large chunk of ALPO will go down the drain with 'em.
With ALPO, the gravy train has left the station.
Sadly, the guys in the organization haven't realized it yet.
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Maxalt,
Respect and Loyalty are separate issues.............you could be very loyal to a company but have no respect for a particular manager...........probably the case in many airlines.
Loyalty can be purchased..........give people good pay, free staff travel for them and their families, generous sick leave, more and more perks and you will have a very loyal workforce......they won't leave you..........they may not have any respect for you cause you are driving the business into the ground but they will stick round because no one else offers a reason for being loyal to them.
Regards,
DFC
Respect and Loyalty are separate issues.............you could be very loyal to a company but have no respect for a particular manager...........probably the case in many airlines.
Loyalty can be purchased..........give people good pay, free staff travel for them and their families, generous sick leave, more and more perks and you will have a very loyal workforce......they won't leave you..........they may not have any respect for you cause you are driving the business into the ground but they will stick round because no one else offers a reason for being loyal to them.
Regards,
DFC
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411a is a union-hater of long standing. He seems to devote an inordinate of time to decrying any attempt by pilots to create anything apart from a rock-bottom employment situation.
Under the 411a credo you'd be better off being a truck driver - its a more respectable job, and, if you own your own trucking firm, even with just your truck and you as the whole jig, hey, your a member of the property-owning democracy instead of being a rabid proto-marxist employee.
There's a degree of disingenuity at work. 411a long wished to create his own airline out of some disused Tristars, I believe. Obviously cheap pilots, (as cheap as you can get...............), improves the balance sheet of a start-up designed to enrich its owner, (nothing wrong with that, but its when the level of abuse reaches the scale of that in Ryanair that questions are rightly being asked).
It does seem as if the tragedy of 9/11 has put this plan into the deep freeze, or would 411a care to enlighten us otherwise?
It may well be that overcapacity in the market and a lack of a rational pricing model in the industry, (which lead a recent US newspaper commentator to call the US airline industry a "mass charitable airlift"), will drive down salaries, but I have a prediction.
Market forces cut both ways. In the end the seemingly limitless supply of people willing to become a pilot will dry-up. As a job it has lost its allure. Experience levels will decline alarmingly, hull losses will rise, insurance premiums with it. I guarantee that compensation levels will rise and benefits including good pension provision will return.
People are economic rationalists in this material age. How many will pay for training AND stick-at a job with no possibility of any equity worth a darn in the firm, no pension, no healthcare, the chance to lose your livelihood twice a year in the sim or at the medical, work levels that destroy any hope of a reasonable family life, and employers who'se only chance for profit is to reduce your compensation package again and again and again? Once you get beyond about 40 there is no chance of realistic-paying salaried employment outside flying either, in this highly specialised employment age that we live in.
To answer my own question I would say, less and less people of the right calibre will do it. And to all those who say the job does't need people of calibre, I would say think again. Anyone who posts that getting an ATPL in 8 months is all it takes is a fool or a liar. That is but the license to start a lifetime of dedicated learning and practise. Command of an airliner, and the trust that goes with it, the entrusting of peoples lives to your care, is not something to be gained lightly or easily decried. Anyone who claims that flying a modern airliner and being FULLY COMPETENT to manage any conceivable combination of failures is piece of old pi** is also a liar or a fool.
Ryanair rightly stands accused of using the tactics of the poorhouse in an industry where trust and mutual respect need to be the backbone of a safe operation. Its leader has enriched himself at the expense of his people and undermines the ethos and standards of a profession of huge public trust every working day.
411a can have little idea of the goings-on in Ryanair from his retirement idyl in Arizona and has deeply suspicious motives of his own for the endless posts he makes gloating at every turn of the screw against his own profession.
His posts should be read with deep scepticism.
Under the 411a credo you'd be better off being a truck driver - its a more respectable job, and, if you own your own trucking firm, even with just your truck and you as the whole jig, hey, your a member of the property-owning democracy instead of being a rabid proto-marxist employee.
There's a degree of disingenuity at work. 411a long wished to create his own airline out of some disused Tristars, I believe. Obviously cheap pilots, (as cheap as you can get...............), improves the balance sheet of a start-up designed to enrich its owner, (nothing wrong with that, but its when the level of abuse reaches the scale of that in Ryanair that questions are rightly being asked).
It does seem as if the tragedy of 9/11 has put this plan into the deep freeze, or would 411a care to enlighten us otherwise?
It may well be that overcapacity in the market and a lack of a rational pricing model in the industry, (which lead a recent US newspaper commentator to call the US airline industry a "mass charitable airlift"), will drive down salaries, but I have a prediction.
Market forces cut both ways. In the end the seemingly limitless supply of people willing to become a pilot will dry-up. As a job it has lost its allure. Experience levels will decline alarmingly, hull losses will rise, insurance premiums with it. I guarantee that compensation levels will rise and benefits including good pension provision will return.
People are economic rationalists in this material age. How many will pay for training AND stick-at a job with no possibility of any equity worth a darn in the firm, no pension, no healthcare, the chance to lose your livelihood twice a year in the sim or at the medical, work levels that destroy any hope of a reasonable family life, and employers who'se only chance for profit is to reduce your compensation package again and again and again? Once you get beyond about 40 there is no chance of realistic-paying salaried employment outside flying either, in this highly specialised employment age that we live in.
To answer my own question I would say, less and less people of the right calibre will do it. And to all those who say the job does't need people of calibre, I would say think again. Anyone who posts that getting an ATPL in 8 months is all it takes is a fool or a liar. That is but the license to start a lifetime of dedicated learning and practise. Command of an airliner, and the trust that goes with it, the entrusting of peoples lives to your care, is not something to be gained lightly or easily decried. Anyone who claims that flying a modern airliner and being FULLY COMPETENT to manage any conceivable combination of failures is piece of old pi** is also a liar or a fool.
Ryanair rightly stands accused of using the tactics of the poorhouse in an industry where trust and mutual respect need to be the backbone of a safe operation. Its leader has enriched himself at the expense of his people and undermines the ethos and standards of a profession of huge public trust every working day.
411a can have little idea of the goings-on in Ryanair from his retirement idyl in Arizona and has deeply suspicious motives of his own for the endless posts he makes gloating at every turn of the screw against his own profession.
His posts should be read with deep scepticism.
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411, I really DO know your type.
For those on the other side of the pond, every once in a while, I fly with a guy, usually about 58 years of age, mean, grumpy, mad at the world...the kind who comes home and kicks his poor, defenseless dog because it makes him feel like a big man....they sit in the cockpit muttering about how ALPA f***ed them over because his original airline went under (nevermind that it was run by a-holes like Frank Lorenzo) or he didn't get the seniority he wanted after the merger (eventhough he's now earning more and flying a larger a/c that his original company never even owned). He's a sour, horrible bird. That's the kind of guy we're dealing with here. A union-hater.
Judging by your postings on Airliners.net, a Frank Lorenzo lover to boot, eh? Well, that speaks volumes...volumes. Credibility: Zero.
And please, just indulge me. Since I'm very new to this forum, tell me and everyone which airline for whom you're currently (or in the past) a Captain. I certainly didn't see any type-ratings. But, then again, I knew you wouldn't have the intestinal fortitude to answer that question (even though I asked it three times); then folks might see you as a fraud.
411, you wouldn't by any chance be a scab, too, would you?
For those on the other side of the pond, every once in a while, I fly with a guy, usually about 58 years of age, mean, grumpy, mad at the world...the kind who comes home and kicks his poor, defenseless dog because it makes him feel like a big man....they sit in the cockpit muttering about how ALPA f***ed them over because his original airline went under (nevermind that it was run by a-holes like Frank Lorenzo) or he didn't get the seniority he wanted after the merger (eventhough he's now earning more and flying a larger a/c that his original company never even owned). He's a sour, horrible bird. That's the kind of guy we're dealing with here. A union-hater.
Judging by your postings on Airliners.net, a Frank Lorenzo lover to boot, eh? Well, that speaks volumes...volumes. Credibility: Zero.
And please, just indulge me. Since I'm very new to this forum, tell me and everyone which airline for whom you're currently (or in the past) a Captain. I certainly didn't see any type-ratings. But, then again, I knew you wouldn't have the intestinal fortitude to answer that question (even though I asked it three times); then folks might see you as a fraud.
411, you wouldn't by any chance be a scab, too, would you?
Last edited by zehutiman; 27th Apr 2005 at 13:45.
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http://www.rte.ie/business/2005/0427/ryanair.html
April 27, 2005 15:18
The chief executive of Ryanair, Michael O'Leary, escaped the possibility of jail and a contempt of court finding today on a legal technicality.
A Ryanair pilot, John Goss, had sought Mr O'Leary's committal to jail alleging contempt of a court order. But Mr Justice Barry White found today that the notice of contempt of court proceedings must be served on the person whose committal to prison is sought.
This did not happen in the case of Michael O'Leary and David O'Brien, the company's director of flight and ground operations. The judge did not make any determination on the contempt in relation to the company itself and instead the matter has been adjourned until a full hearing scheduled for May 31.
But as Mr O'Leary was leaving court he was served in person with new court papers alleging contempt. Mr Justice White did make an order requiring Ryanair to reinstate John Goss to his flying duties. The judge stressed that his order was not inhibiting Ryanair from suspending Mr Goss solely for bona fide and operational reasons, corroborated by appropriate evidence. But he warned that if his order were breached and if found contempt it would take an awful lot to convince that jail was not appropriate.
April 27, 2005 15:18
The chief executive of Ryanair, Michael O'Leary, escaped the possibility of jail and a contempt of court finding today on a legal technicality.
A Ryanair pilot, John Goss, had sought Mr O'Leary's committal to jail alleging contempt of a court order. But Mr Justice Barry White found today that the notice of contempt of court proceedings must be served on the person whose committal to prison is sought.
This did not happen in the case of Michael O'Leary and David O'Brien, the company's director of flight and ground operations. The judge did not make any determination on the contempt in relation to the company itself and instead the matter has been adjourned until a full hearing scheduled for May 31.
But as Mr O'Leary was leaving court he was served in person with new court papers alleging contempt. Mr Justice White did make an order requiring Ryanair to reinstate John Goss to his flying duties. The judge stressed that his order was not inhibiting Ryanair from suspending Mr Goss solely for bona fide and operational reasons, corroborated by appropriate evidence. But he warned that if his order were breached and if found contempt it would take an awful lot to convince that jail was not appropriate.
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http://www.rte.ie/business/2005/0427/ryanair.html
April 27, 2005 15:18
The chief executive of Ryanair, Michael O'Leary, escaped the possibility of jail and a contempt of court finding today on a legal technicality.
A Ryanair pilot, John Goss, had sought Mr O'Leary's committal to jail alleging contempt of a court order. But Mr Justice Barry White found today that the notice of contempt of court proceedings must be served on the person whose committal to prison is sought.
This did not happen in the case of Michael O'Leary and David O'Brien, the company's director of flight and ground operations. The judge did not make any determination on the contempt in relation to the company itself and instead the matter has been adjourned until a full hearing scheduled for May 31.
Click here to find out more!
But as Mr O'Leary was leaving court he was served in person with new court papers alleging contempt. Mr Justice White did make an order requiring Ryanair to reinstate John Goss to his flying duties. The judge stressed that his order was not inhibiting Ryanair from suspending Mr Goss solely for bona fide and operational reasons, corroborated by appropriate evidence. But he warned that if his order were breached and if found contempt it would take an awful lot to convince that jail was not appropriate.
April 27, 2005 15:18
The chief executive of Ryanair, Michael O'Leary, escaped the possibility of jail and a contempt of court finding today on a legal technicality.
A Ryanair pilot, John Goss, had sought Mr O'Leary's committal to jail alleging contempt of a court order. But Mr Justice Barry White found today that the notice of contempt of court proceedings must be served on the person whose committal to prison is sought.
This did not happen in the case of Michael O'Leary and David O'Brien, the company's director of flight and ground operations. The judge did not make any determination on the contempt in relation to the company itself and instead the matter has been adjourned until a full hearing scheduled for May 31.
Click here to find out more!
But as Mr O'Leary was leaving court he was served in person with new court papers alleging contempt. Mr Justice White did make an order requiring Ryanair to reinstate John Goss to his flying duties. The judge stressed that his order was not inhibiting Ryanair from suspending Mr Goss solely for bona fide and operational reasons, corroborated by appropriate evidence. But he warned that if his order were breached and if found contempt it would take an awful lot to convince that jail was not appropriate.
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well done john!kick up the ass for mol and co.
now for all the above bull about unions being no good.where would mr.goss be today without his union.he would be out of work with no way to appeal to the megalomaniac.well done REPA.
now for all the above bull about unions being no good.where would mr.goss be today without his union.he would be out of work with no way to appeal to the megalomaniac.well done REPA.
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But as Mr O'Leary was leaving court he was served in person with new court papers alleging contempt.
Can't stand over this, but it is too good not to repeat and, it must be said, it is spreading like wildfire.
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Another snit eh, zehutiman?
You positively know the type, do you?
I can only laugh at your sad postings.
Do a search, and you will find that I have worked overseas (predominatly with three large state owned carriers, but your search will find which ones) for over thirty five years in command of heavy jets, and the countless ALPO folks that have shown at the door have all had seemingly sad stories.
Staunch ALPO guys to the end they were, until that is they were screwed over big-time by their union.
ALPO is not about representing pilots...it is about money for the ALPO executives.
And as for ShortFinalFred, no, there will be positively no 'shortage' of guys wanting to apply for airline pilot positions.
More accidents you say, from their 'inexperience?'
Not if the airlines boost up their training budgets, as they will have too in any case.
Pilot unions are fine if reasonably managed, but when they ask...no demand far too much (Delta is a perfect example) from the company, the airline may well find that bankruptcy is the only option...as Delta is considering now.
Gee, what a surprise.
Then, pensions aref flushed down the drain (hello UAL, USAir), pilots are laid off big-time, and general misery prevails.
And yet, ALPO fights tooth and nail to keep the regional carriers from partnering with legacy carriers, to provide ample competition in the LLC market.
Scope clauses have done absolutely nothing except throw legacy carrier pilots out of work...and the sad part is, these guys don't have a clue.
Oh yes, one final thought for Fred.
Continental would have been but a very distant memory if Lorenzo had not pulled their bacon out of the fire.
UAL had their eye on closing 'em permantly if they had had their way.
History is long forgotton, by those with short memories, clouded by ALPO BS.
And as for FR, clearly MOL has handled himself in a rather repugnant fashion, but I guess it's just in his nature.
He will certainly get what he deserves...whatever that may be.
In fact, he may well be forced out in the end.
Wouldn't be all that bad, now would it?
You positively know the type, do you?
I can only laugh at your sad postings.
Do a search, and you will find that I have worked overseas (predominatly with three large state owned carriers, but your search will find which ones) for over thirty five years in command of heavy jets, and the countless ALPO folks that have shown at the door have all had seemingly sad stories.
Staunch ALPO guys to the end they were, until that is they were screwed over big-time by their union.
ALPO is not about representing pilots...it is about money for the ALPO executives.
And as for ShortFinalFred, no, there will be positively no 'shortage' of guys wanting to apply for airline pilot positions.
More accidents you say, from their 'inexperience?'
Not if the airlines boost up their training budgets, as they will have too in any case.
Pilot unions are fine if reasonably managed, but when they ask...no demand far too much (Delta is a perfect example) from the company, the airline may well find that bankruptcy is the only option...as Delta is considering now.
Gee, what a surprise.
Then, pensions aref flushed down the drain (hello UAL, USAir), pilots are laid off big-time, and general misery prevails.
And yet, ALPO fights tooth and nail to keep the regional carriers from partnering with legacy carriers, to provide ample competition in the LLC market.
Scope clauses have done absolutely nothing except throw legacy carrier pilots out of work...and the sad part is, these guys don't have a clue.
Oh yes, one final thought for Fred.
Continental would have been but a very distant memory if Lorenzo had not pulled their bacon out of the fire.
UAL had their eye on closing 'em permantly if they had had their way.
History is long forgotton, by those with short memories, clouded by ALPO BS.
And as for FR, clearly MOL has handled himself in a rather repugnant fashion, but I guess it's just in his nature.
He will certainly get what he deserves...whatever that may be.
In fact, he may well be forced out in the end.
Wouldn't be all that bad, now would it?
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zehutiman wants 411 to break out of his closet and say his employer. (Why don't you 'zehutiman'?)
Hold your ammo for a few days, 411; some of us have to leave for 3 days to fly a trip and extract money from our benevolent employers so as to pay our evil, mafia-bent union.