Airmanship

[RoyHudd]

Qatar Airways crew. Go learn about the topic. No evidence of understanding so far. LGW ATC can validate.

[faheel]

Roy, what a complete waste of bandwidth
If you are going to post something at the very least offer up a rumour not some crap like this.

I cannot believe I am bothering to reply to this I must be bored

[SilentHandover]

I assume RoyHudd is talking about a Qatari flight yesterday morning, aircraft landed long on a wet runway and rolled to H to vacate the runway, it wasn't super quick vacating (but H is not a RET) necessitating a My Travel A330 to go-around behind.

Edited to add: Not commenting on the first post just trying to add some details to what RoyHudd may be talking about.

[eal401]

So what did QR do wrong then?

Forgive the assumption, but "landing long" on a wet runway doesn't sound much like poor airmanship to me. Can someone explain?

[Right Way Up]

eal401,
I am assuming that you are not a pilot (at least on big stuff). Landing long means not touching down in the touchdown zone, and therefore having a lot less runway to use after touchdown. Very poor airmanship especially on a wet runway.
Any ATCers at LGW know who the light turboprop was coming in last night. I mistook his callsign for a Kestrel one and assumed early on that we were following a normal arrival. However having spotted his low level arrival (do CDAs count for turboprops?), we started to be a bit more wary and already started to slown down before asked by ATC (the joys of TCAS!). I was very impressed at the coolness of the tower controller, which most definately saved a go-around!

[M.Mouse]

Landing long means not touching down in the touchdown zone, and therefore having a lot less runway to use after touchdown. Very poor airmanship especially on a wet runway.

You forgot to add that the rest of us don't do this, ever, because we are all perfect.

What a pathetic thread.

[eal401]

Thanks, Right Way Up, all is understood now.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<already started to slown down before asked by ATC (the joys of TCAS!). >>

If you do things like that too often you will defintely get your fingers very seriously burned...

[Right Way Up]

M.Mouse,
There is landing long and then there is landing long. And where exactly did I say that I had not done it before. It still means it is bad airmanship. If you do not like a thread don't read it, its a free world after all.
HD, don't worry I do not ignore ATC speed requests. It was late at night and we had no speed control. My colleague on the flight deck rather than steaming in, selected sensible speeds which with the ATC request to slown down to Min App speed saved a definite go-around.

[757operator]

China Eastern A340 tailstrike

If we are looking at airmanship, how about China Eastern (Flight International 19-25 April, p8)?

Serious tailstrike on takeoff from Heathrow, told about it by ATC, QRH says don't pressurise - but they fly it all the way to Shanghai!

With damage to the pressure hull, it could have split open like a banana at any time.

[exvicar]

So someone lands long & is slow to vacate, hardly fair to condemn the entire workforce of Qatar. Having had to Go-around twice at LHR recently (on separate occasions), both due to aircraft being slow to exit the runway, I cannot see what your point is. Go arounds are a fact of life, poor airmanship would be landing with one still on! Oh & the airlines that were slow to vacate were BA & BMI, while you are at it why don't you condemn all of their work forces as well!

[10 DME ARC]

I agree with the vicar, you don't know the reasoning behind the Qatar landing long, could have had a problem on short finals or during the landing roll!
I have seen much worse airmanship that that!

[RoyHudd]

I was not criticising the whole QR pilot workforce, just the people who unnecessarily caused another wide-body back into some unpleasant weather at the end of a long flight, with consequent waste of fuel and time. Plus causing problems for other arriving traffic and ATC at a busy period. Plus decreasing safety margins for all involved.

Autobrake MED, coupled with a touchdown in the correct zone would have prevented this, and enabled the said a/c (Airbus) to vacate at the first high-speed turn-off.

Granted, the China A340 was another classic example of poor airmanship. And yes, we all have made mistakes, but it is a good thing if we are informed of our errors and learn from them, especially in this unforgiving environment. I have no time for political correctness in aviation, nor uninformed comments from many of the "contributors" to this thread.

And I am curious why the QR PNF should announce "Oh, good" in reply to London ATC when informed of a r/w change from 08R to 26L when about 100nm's out. Hardly professional in any sense.

[fireflybob]

Maybe the handling pilot was very new to type and/or they were training?

How do you define "long" - surely you need some hard facts before making any judgements?

How do you define "Airmanship"?

[away from home]

The reason the Qatari gave for his lack of expedition(!) was due to breaking action being 'medium'. However the next arrival, a B777, stated that he thought the breaking action was fine.
The landing itself was interesting-well past the TDZ and mostly on one set of wheels!
quote -
"a touchdown in the correct zone would have prevented this, and enabled the said a/c (Airbus) to vacate at the first high-speed turn-off."

- if it had even made the 3rd exit (GR), i think it would probably have worked! But hey, that's life!

(PS-Haven't ever had any great problems with that airline either)

AFH

[Jerricho]

just the people who unnecessarily caused another wide-body back into some unpleasant weather at the end of a long flight

Roy you're displaying a lack of airmanship yourself, questioning another aviator in a situation like this. You're not the only bloody airplane in the sky. For whatever reason the driver of that aircraft decided to land as such. A go-around by the following was executed. What's the big deal?

Why not have a go at ATC for not providing extra spacing if the conditions were such? When I grow up I want to be as perfect as you mate.

[gingernut]

Roy Hudd's a fine one to talk about airmanship.

You would have thought he'd take his emu with him when fixing the arial.

Or was that Rod Hull ?

[Inuksuk]

Ah yes, the brethern of aviators supporting each other with differing and measured views. Meowwwwwwwww...

We've all screwed up a landing in less than perfect conditions, and in my early days attempting to plop down a big aluminium tube (744), I totally overcooked it, with the ear bashing from the left hand seat, and no doubt rolling eyes, and shaking heads at the EGLL tower...I believe i just about made the TDZ....j u s t...

If however, we are saying there is a generic problem in Qatar or elsewhere, regarding competence and/or training or anything else affecting safe operations, then that's something to get out in the open...any takers lads and/or lassies ?



P.S. Gingernut: fair point - and emus can't fly...so much for their airmanship

I believe Roy Hudd is a comedian, not the one with his arm shoved in the carcass of feathered poultry

[Max Angle]

My view would be that having performed what was perhaps not the best landing in his career he then exercised GOOD airmanship by not trying to rush a big airliner off a wet runway at high speed just to suit ATC and the aircraft behind him. If they had ended up in the grass at the side of the turn-off there would have been a hell of lot more than one go-around.

[Rockhound]

Away from home,
Give us a break! Since nothing broke on touchdown or during rollout, maybe the Moderator can put the brakes on this thread, which doesn't seem to be going anywhere. (I totally agree with M. Mouse).
Rockhound