Mixed mode at LHR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 531
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mixed mode at LHR
Regular operations of landing on both runways (a set amount every hour on the depature runway) during the whole day.
Coming to an airport near Windsor soon. Fear it on GMC!
Coming to an airport near Windsor soon. Fear it on GMC!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, what's the big deal?
LAX did this for years, with 25L/R, before the 24's were available...and occasionally all 4 runways are used for landings...mixed with departures.
Surely good 'ole LHR can cope?
All the folks there need is more stiff upper lip.
LAX did this for years, with 25L/R, before the 24's were available...and occasionally all 4 runways are used for landings...mixed with departures.
Surely good 'ole LHR can cope?
All the folks there need is more stiff upper lip.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahh.. will it ever happen, I ask? As I write this I have in front on me an article I wrote for a magazine in December 1965 (yes - nineteen sixty-five) entitled "Parallel Landing Procedures at London (Heathrow) Airport". A novel idea, which never caught on! Let me know when it comes in - I want to watch GMC!!!
411A - just try popping a map of Heathrow onto a map of LAX. Your place takes up half of California whereas our little strip is tucked away in the middle of a housing estate. We don't have the room you people have...
411A - just try popping a map of Heathrow onto a map of LAX. Your place takes up half of California whereas our little strip is tucked away in the middle of a housing estate. We don't have the room you people have...
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Isn't the PPRuNe 'ignore list' a wonderful thing?
HD, The recent developments alluded to here mean that in effect we can TEAM much more often than now. Instead of just using the inbound holding delay as the trigger point for TEAM, I hear that we'll soon be able to use the holding delay plus any delay a/c are getting on the ground at their departure airports.
i.e. BA315 LFPG-EGLL gets 20 minutes slot delay in LFPG and then ten mins at BIG, we can TEAM.
TC are still very reluctant to do simultaneous parallels.
HD, The recent developments alluded to here mean that in effect we can TEAM much more often than now. Instead of just using the inbound holding delay as the trigger point for TEAM, I hear that we'll soon be able to use the holding delay plus any delay a/c are getting on the ground at their departure airports.
i.e. BA315 LFPG-EGLL gets 20 minutes slot delay in LFPG and then ten mins at BIG, we can TEAM.
TC are still very reluctant to do simultaneous parallels.
The question is will it be used to expedite the traffic already using the place, in which case lets get on with it, or to cram more traffic in?. Somehow I know the answer without waiting for a reply, oh well it should provide some go-around practice if nothing else.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Problem they found back in the 60s was that traffic offering from the north and south stacks was rarely equal - there would be a rush from the north all for 28R (now 27R) and nothing from the south for 28L, causing problems for the #2 Directors (now Final Director). Of course, back in those days there were plenty of staff to provide for two #2s.... but now???
Similar problems occurred with outbounds so although both runways were available the GMC problems were horrific.
Similar problems occurred with outbounds so although both runways were available the GMC problems were horrific.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: London, England
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A few reasons why it's not such a good idea....
1) Far too complicated on GMC..... It's hard enough now with all the construction work going on without adding opposite direction taxiing traffic into it as well
2) The majority of people at Heathrow have never done any kind of solid single runway training (the simulator doesn't count because it's not particularly realistic). Therefore, expect more incidents in a similar vein to a couple of years ago (BA B744, BMI A320). Piggyback go-arounds will become a lot more commonplace
3) It is rapidly becoming the norm at Heathrow that controllers have either no or very little radar experience, hence when it all goes horribly wrong they don't have the skills to get themselves out of it. A few reasonably recent cases have also highlighted this, and as long as the college of knowledge keep trying to send us people with no radar training whatsoever then you can expect a few of the 21 Destinations to take a hit
4) Runways 27L/27R are reasonably well set up for Mixed Mode. Turn-offs are in a good location and of a good standard, and so there is no reason purely from a runway useage angle that 6nm spacing with one away in a gap couldn't be done. Runways 09L/09R however will be awful for Mixed Mode as there are no rapid turn-offs and what turn-offs are present are poorly located. Couple this with the fact that on 09L the Holding Area does not permit any aircraft to overtake each other at all, then the chance of marshalling to sneak two aircraft away in a gap becomes zero.
I would be interested to hear other peoples thoughts on this because I'm sure it could be a long and productive debate
I do feel however that unless the Terminal 4 situation is resolved i.e. traffic can park/has a stand/has somewhere to hold for a stand/has enough tug crews to cope.... then we are putting ourselves at risk by allowing a whole barrage of BA aircraft and their affiliates to land 27L/09R and block up the whole airfield. We can only get so many in there waiting for stands before we can't get anybody out of there from stands!!
1) Far too complicated on GMC..... It's hard enough now with all the construction work going on without adding opposite direction taxiing traffic into it as well
2) The majority of people at Heathrow have never done any kind of solid single runway training (the simulator doesn't count because it's not particularly realistic). Therefore, expect more incidents in a similar vein to a couple of years ago (BA B744, BMI A320). Piggyback go-arounds will become a lot more commonplace
3) It is rapidly becoming the norm at Heathrow that controllers have either no or very little radar experience, hence when it all goes horribly wrong they don't have the skills to get themselves out of it. A few reasonably recent cases have also highlighted this, and as long as the college of knowledge keep trying to send us people with no radar training whatsoever then you can expect a few of the 21 Destinations to take a hit
4) Runways 27L/27R are reasonably well set up for Mixed Mode. Turn-offs are in a good location and of a good standard, and so there is no reason purely from a runway useage angle that 6nm spacing with one away in a gap couldn't be done. Runways 09L/09R however will be awful for Mixed Mode as there are no rapid turn-offs and what turn-offs are present are poorly located. Couple this with the fact that on 09L the Holding Area does not permit any aircraft to overtake each other at all, then the chance of marshalling to sneak two aircraft away in a gap becomes zero.
I would be interested to hear other peoples thoughts on this because I'm sure it could be a long and productive debate
I do feel however that unless the Terminal 4 situation is resolved i.e. traffic can park/has a stand/has somewhere to hold for a stand/has enough tug crews to cope.... then we are putting ourselves at risk by allowing a whole barrage of BA aircraft and their affiliates to land 27L/09R and block up the whole airfield. We can only get so many in there waiting for stands before we can't get anybody out of there from stands!!
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ah halo, the voice of reason-you should be management....o yeah you are
Must agree that whilst it may alleviate the inbound delay surely it will affect the outbound rate...is this not robbing Peter to pay Paul?
And as previously stated what is the point of having the aicraft on the ground if it cant get to its gate, quite possibly because the aircraft on it cant get out because of outbound delays(!)...or am i missing something???
*expect fluctuation in the glidepath*
Must agree that whilst it may alleviate the inbound delay surely it will affect the outbound rate...is this not robbing Peter to pay Paul?
And as previously stated what is the point of having the aicraft on the ground if it cant get to its gate, quite possibly because the aircraft on it cant get out because of outbound delays(!)...or am i missing something???
*expect fluctuation in the glidepath*
Paxing All Over The World
Am I right in thinking that simultaneous landings occur in the very early morning? I'm thinking of from opening at 06:00 for an hour or so when many of the long haul birds come home to roost?
Ohcirrej
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: This is the internet FFS.........
Posts: 2,921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PAXboy, normally when the 0600 "all stations go" hits, both runways may be used if the arrival delay is sufficient (help me out with the numbers here Gonze et al. Isn't it something like 10 minutes holding between 0600 and 0630 then 5 mins between 0630 and 0700? Can't remember)
Ideally the BA/T4 arrivals land on the south runway, but as halo has described, it can get very congested down that part of the field very quickly.
Ideally the BA/T4 arrivals land on the south runway, but as halo has described, it can get very congested down that part of the field very quickly.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clearly, the radar folks at LHR have their knickers in a twist, as do the folks that are supposed to co-ordinate ground ops/construction.
Do they not talk to one another...at all??
And, if not, why are we not surprised?
Do they not talk to one another...at all??
And, if not, why are we not surprised?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Cheshire, UK
Age: 56
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have somewhat limited experience of the innards of ATC operations at LHR.
But who has overall control over runways, taxiways and GM ?
I suspect it is a mixture of HAL, BAA and NATS.
Do any of you actually talk to each other ?
What are the real, major issues behind mixed mode not being workable ?
halo's post raised some good questions and gave some good answers.
Why are there not the same high speed exits when the Westerly approaches are in use ?
I am sure my understanding is very lacking and that it is not so simple, but money must be a factor. All very well investing in T5 but what about better planning of manouvering space ?
As always, the technology is there. The skill of ATC is there for sure. Are the restrictrictions simply due to lack of space on the ground for traffic moving about ?
Many questions from one who is rather unintiated in current matters, but as a regular LHR transit passenger, valid ones I think.
But who has overall control over runways, taxiways and GM ?
I suspect it is a mixture of HAL, BAA and NATS.
Do any of you actually talk to each other ?
What are the real, major issues behind mixed mode not being workable ?
halo's post raised some good questions and gave some good answers.
Why are there not the same high speed exits when the Westerly approaches are in use ?
I am sure my understanding is very lacking and that it is not so simple, but money must be a factor. All very well investing in T5 but what about better planning of manouvering space ?
As always, the technology is there. The skill of ATC is there for sure. Are the restrictrictions simply due to lack of space on the ground for traffic moving about ?
Many questions from one who is rather unintiated in current matters, but as a regular LHR transit passenger, valid ones I think.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jer, re: the delay 0600-0700 you are correct.
LL34,
We do talk to BAA/HAL (they are the same enitity). However, as you've pointed out, money is a big factor. Everything that we suggest that would expedite traffic flow, i.e. more high speed turn offs, whatever, everything has to have a business case attached to it, and we have to show HAL that they would get their money back in x years time.
HAL airside ops staffing levels are way below requirement.
Mixed mode will not work because we haven't got enough space on the ground. As has been pointed out, we struggle presently. Another big reason is lack of stands to park all the planes on.
LL34,
We do talk to BAA/HAL (they are the same enitity). However, as you've pointed out, money is a big factor. Everything that we suggest that would expedite traffic flow, i.e. more high speed turn offs, whatever, everything has to have a business case attached to it, and we have to show HAL that they would get their money back in x years time.
HAL airside ops staffing levels are way below requirement.
Mixed mode will not work because we haven't got enough space on the ground. As has been pointed out, we struggle presently. Another big reason is lack of stands to park all the planes on.