Ryanair worry the heck out of me and many other professional pilots
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Well I am amazed at this thread. When are some of you going to stop behaving like big girls. If FR, BA, or any one on the UK/Eire airlines were operating to unsafe procedures they would get hammered by the authorities. All airlines will use the law to maximise their profitability, and yes individual crews will make mistakes, live with it. That is the real world. This tittle tattle between companies is pathetic for so called professionals.
Good luck in the market to BA,FR,EZ, VS et all. There is enough pressure on us all without childish infighting.
Regards and Respect to all
Wide
Good luck in the market to BA,FR,EZ, VS et all. There is enough pressure on us all without childish infighting.
Regards and Respect to all
Wide
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Low Cost Airlines - reaching a "critical" mass?
Morning everyone,
with the LoCo carriers all over Europe buying new Boeings at record levels, what happenes, when all those aircrafts need their thorough D-Checks?
And next point: You have an airline that flies 50.000 sectors each year. If it has a safety level of 1 accident every 500.000 sectors, itīll have one loss every 10 years (which is.. acceptable in a management point of view, i guess..).
An airline whith 500.000 sectors a year needs a much higher standard than that, it needs a safety level of 1 accident every 5.000.000 sectors to match the level of the above mentioned airline, otherwise, with the same level, it would have a total loss EVERY YEAR!
So, how do the Low Cost structures look like, if the carriers reach a "critical" mass?
It costs a lot of money to increase your safety standards by a factor of 10..
with the LoCo carriers all over Europe buying new Boeings at record levels, what happenes, when all those aircrafts need their thorough D-Checks?
And next point: You have an airline that flies 50.000 sectors each year. If it has a safety level of 1 accident every 500.000 sectors, itīll have one loss every 10 years (which is.. acceptable in a management point of view, i guess..).
An airline whith 500.000 sectors a year needs a much higher standard than that, it needs a safety level of 1 accident every 5.000.000 sectors to match the level of the above mentioned airline, otherwise, with the same level, it would have a total loss EVERY YEAR!
So, how do the Low Cost structures look like, if the carriers reach a "critical" mass?
It costs a lot of money to increase your safety standards by a factor of 10..
Last edited by Charly; 3rd Mar 2005 at 10:10.
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Hotel Charlie
Thank you for your informed comment. I can not comment on the Norweigan authority I have not delt with them. In the dealings I have had with the UK authorities, they want airlines to fly. They will help airlines to operate within the LAW. As for spineless I do not know, but I have seen their teeth.
Like all professionals, they do not abuse their authority rather excercise it with care.
Again there will always be individual cases where this is not so. But as a real overal situation, this IS what goes on.
Regards
Wide
Thank you for your informed comment. I can not comment on the Norweigan authority I have not delt with them. In the dealings I have had with the UK authorities, they want airlines to fly. They will help airlines to operate within the LAW. As for spineless I do not know, but I have seen their teeth.
Like all professionals, they do not abuse their authority rather excercise it with care.
Again there will always be individual cases where this is not so. But as a real overal situation, this IS what goes on.
Regards
Wide
Sorry Charly.....
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D checks do they exist anymore? Also I think you'll find that easyJet will roll out their A319s before they need heavy maintenance checks and given they got them for a knock down price may make some money out of it. I am sure the same will go for Ryanair and their "bargain basement priced" 737-800s.
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The LoCo are very efficient businesses working to a different business plan than more established carriers. They will replace aircraft when it is most economic to do so. Is there a problem with that, that a business should use its assets in the most effective manner possible?
If a regulator has decreed that a pilot should fly no more than 900 hours/year, why should an operator not try to utilise all of those 900 hours? Either the operator is unreasonable, or the limit is unreasonable. I wonder which it is?
Slightly off topic, there seem to be 2 different points of view being expressed here. On the one side we have thise who are watching T&C being eroded by LoCos, and on the other side seems to be those who have known nothing different, for whom the FR or EZ way is the norm, not the new idea. I remember thinking everything my dad said was rubbish, until I got older.....
If a regulator has decreed that a pilot should fly no more than 900 hours/year, why should an operator not try to utilise all of those 900 hours? Either the operator is unreasonable, or the limit is unreasonable. I wonder which it is?
Slightly off topic, there seem to be 2 different points of view being expressed here. On the one side we have thise who are watching T&C being eroded by LoCos, and on the other side seems to be those who have known nothing different, for whom the FR or EZ way is the norm, not the new idea. I remember thinking everything my dad said was rubbish, until I got older.....
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If there was a problem with the limits they would be reduced.
Maybe you don't think that working to CAP371 is a problem, but many pilots do. Why? Just so they can 'improve' their terms and conditions? NO. Because they know how they feel when they are pushed to the limits of the document.....absolutely shattered and that is a flight safety issue.
PP
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FTLs were devised many years ago before the phenomenon of LoCo's. They were intended to allow airlines to operate pilots to a limit greater than that deemed to be the ideal, in times of shortages, unexpected happenings etc. In other words to allow for short term flexibility. The limts were NOT intended to be the norm. However, they are treated as such by the FR's of this world, hence the problem.
And yep, the authority is question IS spineless. Remember its the IAA, not the CAA.
And yep, the authority is question IS spineless. Remember its the IAA, not the CAA.
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I thought that T&C were generally hammered out between employers (who want as much as possible for their money) and unions (who want as much as possible for their members). Regulators define safe limits using the lowest common denominator principle (ie to cover all situations and persons). Duty time should be linked to duty and rostering IHMO. If one's roster is all over the place with rest not properly allowed for or time zone changes mean rest is very difficult then duty times below FTL are well in order. However, I would contend that the closer an Ops department gets to offering a stable 5 on 2 off roster with no change between early and late during a duty cycle, the more an operator is likely to think that crew can fly close to FTL.
Oh, and by the way, I think MoL has done more to harm the image of LCC than anyone else to date. I furthermore think that his method of dealing with staff, customers and pretty much everyone is appalling. Some of FR "so-called" cost saving measures are a) short sighted and b) repugnant. And the Ryanair method of doing business has very little to do with SouthWest Airlines other than looking the same.
Oh, and by the way, I think MoL has done more to harm the image of LCC than anyone else to date. I furthermore think that his method of dealing with staff, customers and pretty much everyone is appalling. Some of FR "so-called" cost saving measures are a) short sighted and b) repugnant. And the Ryanair method of doing business has very little to do with SouthWest Airlines other than looking the same.
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Quote from Reuters ....
"March 3, 2005
Irish no-frills airline Ryanair said on Thursday passenger numbers in February rose 13 percent from last year to 2.12 million.
The carrier said in a statement its passenger load factor was 79 percent in February compared to 77 percent a year ago.
Ryanair announced last week it had ordered new planes worth more than USD$4 billion from Boeing as part of an ambitious plan to double its passenger numbers by 2012.
Dublin-based Ryanair, which aims to become Europe's largest airline in seven years, plans to expand aggressively in Europe, particularly in Spain and Italy, despite falling ticket prices and high fuel costs.
Rivals easyJet and British Airways have also reported consistently higher passenger numbers as more people travel in Europe on cheaper air fares.
(Reuters)"
Who are these 25 million passengers a year who keep on flying with them if they are as bad as some would say
"March 3, 2005
Irish no-frills airline Ryanair said on Thursday passenger numbers in February rose 13 percent from last year to 2.12 million.
The carrier said in a statement its passenger load factor was 79 percent in February compared to 77 percent a year ago.
Ryanair announced last week it had ordered new planes worth more than USD$4 billion from Boeing as part of an ambitious plan to double its passenger numbers by 2012.
Dublin-based Ryanair, which aims to become Europe's largest airline in seven years, plans to expand aggressively in Europe, particularly in Spain and Italy, despite falling ticket prices and high fuel costs.
Rivals easyJet and British Airways have also reported consistently higher passenger numbers as more people travel in Europe on cheaper air fares.
(Reuters)"
Who are these 25 million passengers a year who keep on flying with them if they are as bad as some would say
implies that current FTL are less safe than they could be.
Iflyplanes. Your comparison between a brand new BMW and a clapped out Morris Minor is incorrect.
When you buy a new aircraft, you are also buying the teething problems and hidden defects that come with it, as the owners of BMW 7 Series cars with software problems will tell you.
It may be news to you, but Airbus and Boeing go to very great lengths to make sure that everything that can be replaced or rebuilt in an aircraft, can be returned to original condition.
The bits that cannot be replaced or rebuilt easily, like the wing center section, are built not to fail within the likely life of the aircraft, like the chassis of your hypothetical car.
Furthermore, my guess would be that when your bright shiny new aircraft arrives from the factory, the first thing maintenance will do is take out at least one of those bright shiny new engines and chuck an old "Clapped out" (your term, not mine) engine on the wing in order to equalise things in its engine module maintenance schedule.
Furthermore, the tires, wheels and brake packs you run will be similarly "clapped out".
Please do not confuse bright shiny aircraft interiors and cockpits with increased safety. There is little if any connection provided maintenance is first class.
When you buy a new aircraft, you are also buying the teething problems and hidden defects that come with it, as the owners of BMW 7 Series cars with software problems will tell you.
It may be news to you, but Airbus and Boeing go to very great lengths to make sure that everything that can be replaced or rebuilt in an aircraft, can be returned to original condition.
The bits that cannot be replaced or rebuilt easily, like the wing center section, are built not to fail within the likely life of the aircraft, like the chassis of your hypothetical car.
Furthermore, my guess would be that when your bright shiny new aircraft arrives from the factory, the first thing maintenance will do is take out at least one of those bright shiny new engines and chuck an old "Clapped out" (your term, not mine) engine on the wing in order to equalise things in its engine module maintenance schedule.
Furthermore, the tires, wheels and brake packs you run will be similarly "clapped out".
Please do not confuse bright shiny aircraft interiors and cockpits with increased safety. There is little if any connection provided maintenance is first class.
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I thought that T&C were generally hammered out between employers (who want as much as possible for their money) and unions (who want as much as possible for their members).
(I thought) Regulators define safe limits using the lowest common denominator principle (ie to cover all situations and persons).
Politics is the main decider.
Duty time should be linked to duty and rostering IHMO. If one's roster is all over the place with rest not properly allowed for or time zone changes mean rest is very difficult then duty times below FTL are well in order. However, I would contend that the closer an Ops department gets to offering a stable 5 on 2 off roster with no change between early and late during a duty cycle, the more an operator is likely to think that crew can fly close to FTL.
Oh, and by the way, I think MoL has done more to harm the image of LCC than anyone else to date. I furthermore think that his method of dealing with staff, customers and pretty much everyone is appalling. Some of FR "so-called" cost saving measures are a) short sighted and b) repugnant. And the Ryanair method of doing business has very little to do with SouthWest Airlines other than looking the same
How perverse!
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As for the comments on old vs new planes, blve that it takes about 12-18 months to de-bug a new plane and make it really reliable (sort out the wiring looms etc), so don't knock your used planes, someone has sweated hard to make them right...
- I also recall PR's issues with some 747's it acquired off an airline in the same region that only use new planes, turned out that airline hadn't bothered to upkeep the anti-corrosion regime recommended because it was cheaper, cost poor old PR a fortune to rectify.......
- I also recall PR's issues with some 747's it acquired off an airline in the same region that only use new planes, turned out that airline hadn't bothered to upkeep the anti-corrosion regime recommended because it was cheaper, cost poor old PR a fortune to rectify.......
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Ryanair Standards
Having worked with AIR UK [the uk traingschool for many british airlines and foreign.] 'The standard of training and airmanship in Ryanair is to a higher standard than otherl arge and high profile companys in the UK.
We have the most adavanced AFDM monitoring system available which is actioned upon if required and it is. and working 90 hours every 28 days is no problem. I have a fantastic home and social life ,no night stops and get over Ģ5000a month take home after tax. I love flying do the job with 100% enthuisiasm [spelt wrong?]
and I stick to the SOP's. I get on the 800 and set a good tone for the day. and what's more I enjoy every minute of it.
Yup they are ruthless but I am proud to work for the most succesful airline in the UK and soon to be Europe.
And I certainley will not be leaving!!!!!!!!!!
We have the most adavanced AFDM monitoring system available which is actioned upon if required and it is. and working 90 hours every 28 days is no problem. I have a fantastic home and social life ,no night stops and get over Ģ5000a month take home after tax. I love flying do the job with 100% enthuisiasm [spelt wrong?]
and I stick to the SOP's. I get on the 800 and set a good tone for the day. and what's more I enjoy every minute of it.
Yup they are ruthless but I am proud to work for the most succesful airline in the UK and soon to be Europe.
And I certainley will not be leaving!!!!!!!!!!
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Sunfish,
Are you saying when Ryanair receive a brand new aeroplane from Boeing that they remove all the new high value parts and replace them with older worn parts? (i am not being pedantic and referring to every part) How on earth is this managable? Have they got enough half worn out gear to keep replacing everything? Also i refute your claim as this would be a complete waste of manpower and raise costs unneccessarily - something Ryanair will never do.
Will you please expand? Just does not make sense what they are doing.
FYI i am about to join so would like to know
Are you saying when Ryanair receive a brand new aeroplane from Boeing that they remove all the new high value parts and replace them with older worn parts? (i am not being pedantic and referring to every part) How on earth is this managable? Have they got enough half worn out gear to keep replacing everything? Also i refute your claim as this would be a complete waste of manpower and raise costs unneccessarily - something Ryanair will never do.
Will you please expand? Just does not make sense what they are doing.
FYI i am about to join so would like to know
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Yup they are ruthless ...
Like ... if they give you a few days notice to move - on your next two days off - to another base with reduced pay.... will you then celebrate their "ruthlessness" or their fine business and management practices?
Of course you post has a (key) characteristic of many of the pro-management posts here: you sing the praises of a particular version of Ryanair life, appeal to earnings that ... well not everyone gets, forget about the Ryanair induced costs and then give a grudging acknowledgment that Ryanair are not entirely "kosher". Your concession was on "ruthless". We were granted some relief from the "visionary leader" bit. (Kim il MOL as someone here called him).
Do you, as a matter of interest wish to take the opportunity of denouncing this "ruthlessness" here? After all, some pilots with years of experience are convinced that you are right about this and that people with a high profile get targeted by management. How do you feel about that? Good or bad? Or just indifferent to the tune of Ģ5,000 p.m? What do you stand for - greed?