Pilots sleeping on the job?
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Pilots sleeping on the job?
Article in the Sunday Mail today suggesting that a significant number of pilots are falling asleep on the flightdeck. Is this being hammed up by the Mail (as if!!??) or is there something in it?
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A proper controlled napping policy gets you through those long fatigued inducing flights.
With no rest areas or proper breaks apart from a quick toilet visit, roster changes from earlies to lates etc with minimum rest, it can only be advantageous to have at least one pilot awake, the other catnapping in their seat.
Both are then a lot fresher for the arrival, or the warning sounds of system failures.
With no rest areas or proper breaks apart from a quick toilet visit, roster changes from earlies to lates etc with minimum rest, it can only be advantageous to have at least one pilot awake, the other catnapping in their seat.
Both are then a lot fresher for the arrival, or the warning sounds of system failures.
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I have frequently slept on flights. Most pilots I know do. Forget the alcohol stories in the press, the major problem is fatigue. I hope the journo's get hold of this thread and do an in depth story. I am tired of being knackerd on flights!!!
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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There was something written that x hours awake = so much over the drink-DRIVE limit (as opposed to the drink-fly limit of 20mg/100ml).
Sadly, I can't remember what x or how much over the limit are. Too tired....
If anyone can find out, please post it below.......
Sadly, I can't remember what x or how much over the limit are. Too tired....
If anyone can find out, please post it below.......
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There's been more than a few occasions when I've been at the controls having been continuously awake for 24 hours ( or more ) – and yes, how one feels is indeed somewhat akin to being intoxicated ( i.e. trouble thinking clearly / quickly, lethargy, etc ).
Of course when your brain insists that some shut-eye must be had you’ve really got no choice but to have a nap ( headset off, move your seat rearwards and recline…. sound familiar to a good many of us ?! ) and wherein you just hope that the guy in the adjacent seat is able to hold the fort whilst you get some kip.
What the Flight Times Limitations (FTL) scheme does not take account of is that we live in the real world, people can’t just go to sleep at the drop of hat, the kids can keep you awake, your wife’s on the warpath, etc. to say nothing of how you’ve been rostered.
E.g. I’ve had rosters that have me finishing at close to midnight on a Monday. Then on Tuesday we’d do a long night flight - finishing in some foreign port on Wednesday morning. That is then followed by a fractured sleep and a down-route hotel. Which is then followed by the return flight on Wednesday night ( arriving back in the UK on Thursday morning ) – I’d defy anybody not to be tired in the early hours of that Thursday.
And it’s all ‘legal’, and one can’t shout the ‘F’ word ( i.e. Fatigue ) coz the FTL’s say that you shouldn’t be….. but you are !
And the biggest joke of the lot is that if you have a road traffic accident as you’re leaving the crew car park, on that Thursday morning, you stand to get banged-up for operating your motor vehicle whilst unfit ( and yet, just a short time previously, you were landing tons of metal, onto a narrow strip of concrete, at close on 160 mph, in god only knows what weather ! ). The irony of it should not be lost on us.
One would like to think that the newspaper(s) could do an honest article about this, but somehow I doubt it - which is a shame, as it's a far more prevalent issue than is the boozing, and is probably just ( or even more so ) as dangerous.
Of course when your brain insists that some shut-eye must be had you’ve really got no choice but to have a nap ( headset off, move your seat rearwards and recline…. sound familiar to a good many of us ?! ) and wherein you just hope that the guy in the adjacent seat is able to hold the fort whilst you get some kip.
What the Flight Times Limitations (FTL) scheme does not take account of is that we live in the real world, people can’t just go to sleep at the drop of hat, the kids can keep you awake, your wife’s on the warpath, etc. to say nothing of how you’ve been rostered.
E.g. I’ve had rosters that have me finishing at close to midnight on a Monday. Then on Tuesday we’d do a long night flight - finishing in some foreign port on Wednesday morning. That is then followed by a fractured sleep and a down-route hotel. Which is then followed by the return flight on Wednesday night ( arriving back in the UK on Thursday morning ) – I’d defy anybody not to be tired in the early hours of that Thursday.
And it’s all ‘legal’, and one can’t shout the ‘F’ word ( i.e. Fatigue ) coz the FTL’s say that you shouldn’t be….. but you are !
And the biggest joke of the lot is that if you have a road traffic accident as you’re leaving the crew car park, on that Thursday morning, you stand to get banged-up for operating your motor vehicle whilst unfit ( and yet, just a short time previously, you were landing tons of metal, onto a narrow strip of concrete, at close on 160 mph, in god only knows what weather ! ). The irony of it should not be lost on us.
One would like to think that the newspaper(s) could do an honest article about this, but somehow I doubt it - which is a shame, as it's a far more prevalent issue than is the boozing, and is probably just ( or even more so ) as dangerous.
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I have slept on the flight deck. Sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally. There is something in it, believe me. Fatigue is a serious problem and much more so than minute traces of alcohol in blood-streams.
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I'm no pilot but after spending time on the road with my father as a trucker, some 18hour days, min rest that at it again..... just 40mins sleep can work wonders.
Ok it isn't a miracle and your fresh to go for another 9 hours but it definitely has you in a better state of mind than before.
Ok it isn't a miracle and your fresh to go for another 9 hours but it definitely has you in a better state of mind than before.
ex-Tanker
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Policy Change
In the eighties, a Swissair captain, after organising the cockpit accordingly, took a sleep on a north Atlantic flight. The cabin chief saw him and happened to mention it a week or so later during a party to the chief pilot.
Tha captain was suspended and flew I think for a while as first officer before reinstatement. Sleeping on a flight was unheard of.
Later the policy changed and common sense took over. Instead of dancing instruments before the eyes and heads leaning onto the side windows, an organised nap policy was introduced. This allowed for short recovery naps with the other pilot being alerted, the "egg-timer" being set and a few other precautions.
With the intoduction of enlarged or heavy crew on long range flights this problem decreased but on so called short range flights is still a problem - Spain gets very big at night...
I am not sure what Swissair's successor Swiss has for a policy but a short nap really revises you and it makes more sense to have one sleeping pilot than a whole crew dozing off.
Tha captain was suspended and flew I think for a while as first officer before reinstatement. Sleeping on a flight was unheard of.
Later the policy changed and common sense took over. Instead of dancing instruments before the eyes and heads leaning onto the side windows, an organised nap policy was introduced. This allowed for short recovery naps with the other pilot being alerted, the "egg-timer" being set and a few other precautions.
With the intoduction of enlarged or heavy crew on long range flights this problem decreased but on so called short range flights is still a problem - Spain gets very big at night...
I am not sure what Swissair's successor Swiss has for a policy but a short nap really revises you and it makes more sense to have one sleeping pilot than a whole crew dozing off.
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The Fighter Pilot gets it rough sometimes when the chips are down. !!
Extract from memoirs. - Korean War Ops
Our relaxation over protecting our rear changed dramatically later when we were occasionally attacked by the USAF F80 Shooting Stars. Initially apart from one other USAF Mustang Squadron we were the only prop driven fighters in the action and somehow the USAF jet pilots thought anything with a prop was fair game.
Fortunately we always picked up the F80 attacks on our formations and called breaks in time to cause them to miss with their firing passes. Some of the radio calls made to these F80s are unrepeatable. They were too fast for us to do any effective reverse break on to their tails and we just had to be continually alert. This and the summer heat added to extreme physical demands.
On one occasion my section of 4 were returning to base in battle formation from Korea to Iwakuni, Japan, after having flown 3 exhausting missions. Weary and short on food intake during the day we were droning along at about 10,000 ft over the sea. I tried closing one eye for a while alternating from one eye to the other. Soon both eyes stayed closed and I was immediately asleep. Trimmed a little nose down, the Mustang dropped down out of the wide formation and the speed built up. The change in noise awakened me with a start and I was aghast to see the rest of my flight about 2,000 ft above. I sneaked back into the formation before anyone else noticed my little excursion.
There were often times when we could have benefited from some form of medication to keep us alert for longer periods. I guess one ended up being very low on one's supply of adrenalin already drawn upon extensively by the demands at the peaks of an operational mission. Often it was necessary to call up any remaining reserves to enable a reasonable approach and landing particularly at night. There was the ocassional landing accident.
Extract from memoirs. - Korean War Ops
Our relaxation over protecting our rear changed dramatically later when we were occasionally attacked by the USAF F80 Shooting Stars. Initially apart from one other USAF Mustang Squadron we were the only prop driven fighters in the action and somehow the USAF jet pilots thought anything with a prop was fair game.
Fortunately we always picked up the F80 attacks on our formations and called breaks in time to cause them to miss with their firing passes. Some of the radio calls made to these F80s are unrepeatable. They were too fast for us to do any effective reverse break on to their tails and we just had to be continually alert. This and the summer heat added to extreme physical demands.
On one occasion my section of 4 were returning to base in battle formation from Korea to Iwakuni, Japan, after having flown 3 exhausting missions. Weary and short on food intake during the day we were droning along at about 10,000 ft over the sea. I tried closing one eye for a while alternating from one eye to the other. Soon both eyes stayed closed and I was immediately asleep. Trimmed a little nose down, the Mustang dropped down out of the wide formation and the speed built up. The change in noise awakened me with a start and I was aghast to see the rest of my flight about 2,000 ft above. I sneaked back into the formation before anyone else noticed my little excursion.
There were often times when we could have benefited from some form of medication to keep us alert for longer periods. I guess one ended up being very low on one's supply of adrenalin already drawn upon extensively by the demands at the peaks of an operational mission. Often it was necessary to call up any remaining reserves to enable a reasonable approach and landing particularly at night. There was the ocassional landing accident.
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'Cat naps' are very common. It is amazing the difference they make.
The other day I asked if the other minded if I shut my eyes for ten minutes. I left my headset on and just kicked back my seat, before this I was f****ed. Cabin crew binged us 15 mins later, I opened my eyes and felt great.
Should be encouraged I think..there is definately a difference between cat napping and sleeping though!!
The other day I asked if the other minded if I shut my eyes for ten minutes. I left my headset on and just kicked back my seat, before this I was f****ed. Cabin crew binged us 15 mins later, I opened my eyes and felt great.
Should be encouraged I think..there is definately a difference between cat napping and sleeping though!!
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Sleeping during a duty is common place. Crews are always tired due to poor rostering practices. IMHO sleeping on a flight deck is bang out of order because of the safety implications. However it is a dam site safer to have a cat nap than to struggle to stay awake.
It is high time that the CAA woke up and stopped the Airlines abusing an outdated FTL scheme. The CAA should be brought to book for not enforcing malpractice within the Airlines. They are more concerned that the Captain fills out the tech log correctly than they are about knakered pilots.
How about sending this thred to the CAA and the Daily Mirror? Lets expose the bad players and bring these abusers to the table and get the idiots to explain themselves. For me I just have my own FTL scheme and it works rather well!
It is high time that the CAA woke up and stopped the Airlines abusing an outdated FTL scheme. The CAA should be brought to book for not enforcing malpractice within the Airlines. They are more concerned that the Captain fills out the tech log correctly than they are about knakered pilots.
How about sending this thred to the CAA and the Daily Mirror? Lets expose the bad players and bring these abusers to the table and get the idiots to explain themselves. For me I just have my own FTL scheme and it works rather well!
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If Landmark works in the media, compiles an accurate with correct facts article, (not jurno headlining spread- anyone can do that) that may bring public or political pressure on european goverments to review FTL's with scientific up to date data for todays aviation enviroment, that operators have to compliy with, not aim to met than so much the better.
If Landmark is not in the media can he or she pass this thread on to someone who is.
If Landmark is not in the media can he or she pass this thread on to someone who is.
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In theory there should be no danger involved in one pilot being allowed a short nap in the cruise.....unfortunately that's theory only....
The chances are that f one pilot is suffering from sleep deprivation then it's quite likely that the other pilot could be similarly suffering and with one pilot asleep who will keep the other awake.....I've been tempted in the past to allow an FO to grab 40 winks but always resisted the temptation....better to try to stimulate some brain activity....
Hapzim has a point...what's needed is some media attention....much waffle about any pilot who's caught trying to slip aboard while suffering from a hangover but fatigue is mentioned regularly as a factor in air accidents/incidents while alcohol never....( at least in the airline world)
The effects of fatigue are every bit as lethal as alcohol yet no one cares overmuch.... strange world isn't it ?
The chances are that f one pilot is suffering from sleep deprivation then it's quite likely that the other pilot could be similarly suffering and with one pilot asleep who will keep the other awake.....I've been tempted in the past to allow an FO to grab 40 winks but always resisted the temptation....better to try to stimulate some brain activity....
Hapzim has a point...what's needed is some media attention....much waffle about any pilot who's caught trying to slip aboard while suffering from a hangover but fatigue is mentioned regularly as a factor in air accidents/incidents while alcohol never....( at least in the airline world)
The effects of fatigue are every bit as lethal as alcohol yet no one cares overmuch.... strange world isn't it ?