Ryanair launches legal action against pilots' union (merged)
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Ryanair pilots take a huge paycut
A short update to those unaware of have the FR flightpay(sectorpay) works.. It is different from base to base whether it is in mainland Europe, Irland or UK.
In the UK there are 4 different pays
0- 3.5 blockhours = £45
3.5 - 5 blockhours = £80
5 - 7 blockhours = £130
7+ blockhours = £185
This is all after tax for a days work depending on how many blockhours you are SCHEDULED to do. It doesn`t matter how many duty hours you do it is only scheduled block hours that counts.
When this agreement was reached 5 years ago you would normally be doing 5.5 hours days to long days of 7.5 hours. But after MOL predicted the "bloodbath" this all changed. Not what you are beeing pay because the agreement is still the same. But the way rostering is done.
It is today the norm to do a 6 hours 50 min or 6 hours 55 min days. Or if you finally do a more than 7 hours day it is usually between 8 - 9 hours 30 min for the longest day.
The 6 hours 55 min days could be a 4 sector day where you do 2 sectors of 2 hours 5 min, Treviso the last to to Poiters in france are 1 hour 30 min down there and strangely only 1 hour 15 back. The flighttime on the way back from Poiters is mostly between 1. 15 and 1.20 so we WILL be late but FR has just save 2 times £55.
On some sectors they have even changed turnaround time from normal 25 min to 30 min. And then taken 5 min of the blocktime so it will be a 6.55 day instead of a 7 hour day, thus saving money
Over a month this means that compared to before the "bloodbath" we are working atleast 1 hour more FOR FREE per day.
Average sector pay is about £22 per hours. With about 15 working days a month you are working 15 hours for FREE or taking home £22 times 15= £330 LESS than before A MONTH or £3960 less a year AFTER TAX
FR has offered there pilots a 3% payincrease on there BASIC PAY. Which for a first officer on £28000 a year is £840 or £70 per months BEFORE tax. But you are taking home £330 less per months on your flightpay which for a SFO is more than half your take home pay.
Hope there is not to many numbers in here. But FR pilots have taken a HUGE paycut over the last year allthough MOL will off course tell you otherwise
In the UK there are 4 different pays
0- 3.5 blockhours = £45
3.5 - 5 blockhours = £80
5 - 7 blockhours = £130
7+ blockhours = £185
This is all after tax for a days work depending on how many blockhours you are SCHEDULED to do. It doesn`t matter how many duty hours you do it is only scheduled block hours that counts.
When this agreement was reached 5 years ago you would normally be doing 5.5 hours days to long days of 7.5 hours. But after MOL predicted the "bloodbath" this all changed. Not what you are beeing pay because the agreement is still the same. But the way rostering is done.
It is today the norm to do a 6 hours 50 min or 6 hours 55 min days. Or if you finally do a more than 7 hours day it is usually between 8 - 9 hours 30 min for the longest day.
The 6 hours 55 min days could be a 4 sector day where you do 2 sectors of 2 hours 5 min, Treviso the last to to Poiters in france are 1 hour 30 min down there and strangely only 1 hour 15 back. The flighttime on the way back from Poiters is mostly between 1. 15 and 1.20 so we WILL be late but FR has just save 2 times £55.
On some sectors they have even changed turnaround time from normal 25 min to 30 min. And then taken 5 min of the blocktime so it will be a 6.55 day instead of a 7 hour day, thus saving money
Over a month this means that compared to before the "bloodbath" we are working atleast 1 hour more FOR FREE per day.
Average sector pay is about £22 per hours. With about 15 working days a month you are working 15 hours for FREE or taking home £22 times 15= £330 LESS than before A MONTH or £3960 less a year AFTER TAX
FR has offered there pilots a 3% payincrease on there BASIC PAY. Which for a first officer on £28000 a year is £840 or £70 per months BEFORE tax. But you are taking home £330 less per months on your flightpay which for a SFO is more than half your take home pay.
Hope there is not to many numbers in here. But FR pilots have taken a HUGE paycut over the last year allthough MOL will off course tell you otherwise
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Ryanair legal action
quote:
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We (aviation docs) use four historical cases as the only known ones in cardiac/flying accident analysis. An almost insignificant (statistically speaking) number.
Do you know of more?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I do. So you tell me yours and I'll tell you mine. Cite references, dates, journals please. Otherwise I will not believe that you are an "aviation doc."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
We (aviation docs) use four historical cases as the only known ones in cardiac/flying accident analysis. An almost insignificant (statistically speaking) number.
Do you know of more?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I do. So you tell me yours and I'll tell you mine. Cite references, dates, journals please. Otherwise I will not believe that you are an "aviation doc."
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The latest from RTE's website
Ryanair denies pilot's contempt claim
19 April 2005 12:25
Ryanair has told the High Court there is no foundation to allegations by one of its pilots that the company is in breach of a court order preventing proposed disciplinary measures against him.
John Goss of Yellow Walls Road, Malahide, Co Dublin is seeking to have Ryanair Chief Executive Michael O'Leary and the company's Head of Flight and Ground Operations, David O'Brien, jailed for alleged contempt of an injunction issued earlier this year.
Counsel for Ryanair told Mr Justice Michael Peart that there had been no breach of a court order.
Counsel for Mr Goss said they needed extra time to consider two affidavits delivered to them by the airline.
Mr Justice Peart adjourned the matter until Thursday.
19 April 2005 12:25
Ryanair has told the High Court there is no foundation to allegations by one of its pilots that the company is in breach of a court order preventing proposed disciplinary measures against him.
John Goss of Yellow Walls Road, Malahide, Co Dublin is seeking to have Ryanair Chief Executive Michael O'Leary and the company's Head of Flight and Ground Operations, David O'Brien, jailed for alleged contempt of an injunction issued earlier this year.
Counsel for Ryanair told Mr Justice Michael Peart that there had been no breach of a court order.
Counsel for Mr Goss said they needed extra time to consider two affidavits delivered to them by the airline.
Mr Justice Peart adjourned the matter until Thursday.
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Proper union support ?
Dutchie, I think Capt Goss is getting very good union support.
You are trying to compare IALPA and the recognised CAL MEC who were thrown a consolation crumb / sacraficial lamb in exchange for $213M a year in concessions.
The members of the Gigginstown ERC will be in court tomorrow and we will see how humps the camel has left after the judge hears the case.
Dutchie, I think Capt Goss is getting very good union support.
You are trying to compare IALPA and the recognised CAL MEC who were thrown a consolation crumb / sacraficial lamb in exchange for $213M a year in concessions.
The members of the Gigginstown ERC will be in court tomorrow and we will see how humps the camel has left after the judge hears the case.
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If anyone is going to go to the "TOWN HALL" crap in Dublin monday and tuesday,please say nothing and just listen dont fall for any of the old tricks from MOL and the gob****es,they are in trouble and they know it.
Last edited by ALLRIGHTFORTHEHEIGHT; 25th Apr 2005 at 09:18.
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MOL was constrained and produced same old nonsense (not for turning our MOL). Foolish. But no stupid personal attacks or overt threats this time. But the twit based his entire pitch on two absolute lies about IALPA (delay and "union recognition") that have long since been explained to those involved.
Lots of management types there, but a poor pilot turnout, despite IALPA and management encouragement to attend. (IALPA even sent a text message yesterday encouraging attendance!).
They still have not got an idea of the scale of their problem.
Lots of management types there, but a poor pilot turnout, despite IALPA and management encouragement to attend. (IALPA even sent a text message yesterday encouraging attendance!).
They still have not got an idea of the scale of their problem.
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Leopards never change their spots
The latest news (from the Tuesday Town Hall meeting) is a reminder that Leopards never change their spots.
So guess what? - a reduction in some sector payments was announced - the old "hit them back" approach has returned after last nights outburst of appearing to be reasonable. Apparently the bad people in IALPA did it ... euh... made MOL do it. This man really is quite weird and frightening.
Apparently more management people than pilots turned up. The saga moves on to the courts tomorrow.
So guess what? - a reduction in some sector payments was announced - the old "hit them back" approach has returned after last nights outburst of appearing to be reasonable. Apparently the bad people in IALPA did it ... euh... made MOL do it. This man really is quite weird and frightening.
Apparently more management people than pilots turned up. The saga moves on to the courts tomorrow.
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I have no personal interest in it either way, but a european lawyer advised me some years ago, when my employer tried the same thing, that an employees conditions of service can not be changed, detrimentally, i.e. reduced, in a unilateral manner. It must be done via mutual negotiations. However, it will take someone of the workforce to sue for breach of contract to correect the issue. If no one complains, officially, then the imposed changes will stand.
Surely, an imposed reduction in sector pay is a reduction of income and must be agreed by both parties. Considering all the other items we've heard about being deducted, e.g. uniforms & medicals, tea/coffee etc, this sector pay, and all those previous removals, should fall into the category requiring mutual consent. However, no-one sued about the earlier deductions and see what is happening now. Every little peice is being sliced off, unless someone says NO!
Surely, an imposed reduction in sector pay is a reduction of income and must be agreed by both parties. Considering all the other items we've heard about being deducted, e.g. uniforms & medicals, tea/coffee etc, this sector pay, and all those previous removals, should fall into the category requiring mutual consent. However, no-one sued about the earlier deductions and see what is happening now. Every little peice is being sliced off, unless someone says NO!
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Why saying NO is so very hard to to
RAT 5, what an excellent summary of how it works.
But why does it work? It works because, in the absence of effective third party representation to stop it, it is up to each individual to stand up for their rights. The one thing this thread makes clear is that those who stand up in Ryanair in the slightest way become targets. It also explains why people appear to accept outrageous Ryanair management actions that are clearly illegal.
Thus it is that pay, conditions, pensions, etc. get taken away from Ryanair employees and nobody seems to complain. What is probably the most amazing thing of all is that there still are a few Ryanair pilots who think MOL is really open to "doing a deal". The man only deals if he is in a corner - he knows that he can always decide to ignore what he negotiated later!
But why does it work? It works because, in the absence of effective third party representation to stop it, it is up to each individual to stand up for their rights. The one thing this thread makes clear is that those who stand up in Ryanair in the slightest way become targets. It also explains why people appear to accept outrageous Ryanair management actions that are clearly illegal.
Thus it is that pay, conditions, pensions, etc. get taken away from Ryanair employees and nobody seems to complain. What is probably the most amazing thing of all is that there still are a few Ryanair pilots who think MOL is really open to "doing a deal". The man only deals if he is in a corner - he knows that he can always decide to ignore what he negotiated later!
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Missing you all ... wish you were here
I really miss Leo Hairy Turret Ozi-Hansol, etc. Yes... I'm ashamed to have to say this, but it's true. My Prune existence has emptied of its meaning and I have deep sense of dread that they are spending their time on trying to run an airline somewhere.
Please come back. We need your sense of the ridiculous. Who could do other than admire your boundless ability to find methods of sprouting propaganda in the most difficult of circumstances? Is there no one left to demonstrate respect, even craven grovelling, on the subject of the genius of "Great Leader MOL"? What are we to do at this time of international loss? Am I the only one to suffer pangs of remorse that this might be a craven retreat by many of the colourful walk on characters in our little drama?
You are (almost) forgiven for your errors of omission and those "little distortions" that are the hallmark of a particular airline. I particularly miss the happless errors and excised posts ...
Any chance we could negotiate for your return (promise, absolutely promise, not to use a union of any description for the negotiations - I know they are bad and a source of utter economic and personal destruction for all those who come into contact with them). That was why they were taken to court in the first place, right? I'm sure they deserved it.
BTW, anybody know what has happened with that legal effort against the union that led to this thread in the first place?
Please come back. We need your sense of the ridiculous. Who could do other than admire your boundless ability to find methods of sprouting propaganda in the most difficult of circumstances? Is there no one left to demonstrate respect, even craven grovelling, on the subject of the genius of "Great Leader MOL"? What are we to do at this time of international loss? Am I the only one to suffer pangs of remorse that this might be a craven retreat by many of the colourful walk on characters in our little drama?
You are (almost) forgiven for your errors of omission and those "little distortions" that are the hallmark of a particular airline. I particularly miss the happless errors and excised posts ...
Any chance we could negotiate for your return (promise, absolutely promise, not to use a union of any description for the negotiations - I know they are bad and a source of utter economic and personal destruction for all those who come into contact with them). That was why they were taken to court in the first place, right? I'm sure they deserved it.
BTW, anybody know what has happened with that legal effort against the union that led to this thread in the first place?
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Ryanair today (Tuesday, 17th May 2005) confirmed that following a round of direct negotiations with its staff in the month of April, it had implemented a 3% pay increase backdated to 1st April 2005.
Ryanair are also doing their usual game with figures and say that average Ryanair salaries are just the best in the business. Who, just who, do these people think they are kidding?
Clearly somewhere in Ryanair is to be found an idiot looking for a village.
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The headline in today's Irish Times is "Ryanair could have to pay out €44m to pilots". This appears in an article which is with another one on the court case yesterday on Captain Goss.
I'm sure some technical whizz kid will be able to post it here in due course. Things are certainly getting interesting!
I'm sure some technical whizz kid will be able to post it here in due course. Things are certainly getting interesting!
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Irish Times: May 19th 2005
Ryanair could have to pay out €44m to pilots
Siobhán Creaton, Finance Correspondent
Ryanair could potentially face a compensation bill of up to €44 million if the 170 victimisation claims taken by its Dublin-based pilots were to be upheld by a rights commissioner. The first of these cases is expected to be heard in mid-June.
The complaints, some of which have been lodged by the airline's most senior pilots, stem from Ryanair's action in seeking to persuade the pilots to accept terms and conditions attached to their training to fly its new fleet of aircraft.
The initial complaints were first submitted by the airline's eight most senior captains to the Labour Relations Commission last November. Many of the pilots have made multiple complaints.
In the past week, fresh victimisation claims have been made on grounds of the airline's refusal to give the pilots a pay rise. Ryanair said on Tuesday that it had awarded a 3 per cent pay increase to its staff with the exception of its pilots.
It said that the increase, backdated to April 1st, had been granted following "direct negotiations" with its staff last month.
It claimed that the pay rise was awarded to staff who negotiated directly with the company. The pilots are members of the Irish Air Line Pilots Association (Ialpa), which is part of trade union Impact. Ryanair claimed it withheld their pay increase because they had chosen not to negotiate with the airline.
The victimisation claims will be heard by a rights commissioner who has the powers to award a maximum settlement equal to twice the complainant's salary where a claim is upheld.
Ryanair has claimed that its team of pilots are among the highest paid in the airline industry and earn up to €130,000 a year.
Each of the pilots could stand to win compensation of up to €260,000 if successful.
Sources among the pilots suggest that up to 70 further victimisation complaints may yet be taken.
The Labour Court is to investigate a case taken by the Ialpa on behalf of some Ryanair pilots relating to their terms and conditions of employment.
The investigation will centre on the pilots' right to training by the airline, their contracts and rights where redundancies are sought.
The Labour Court findings are binding.
Ryanair is claiming that the new Industrial Relations (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2004 cannot be used to enforce trade union recognition against an employer, such as Ryanair, which does not engage in negotiations with trade unions.
The Labour Court accepted this submission but noted that the legislation does provide a measure of protection to employees when pay and conditions are not freely determined by collective bargaining.
Capt John Goss, the pilot who secured an injunction restraining Ryanair from conducting disciplinary proceedings against him pending a full court challenge, was among the group of the airline's eight most senior pilots to lodge the first victimisation claim.
The airline is also fighting a number of separate legal challenges related to its ongoing dispute with its pilots.
These include High Court proceedings it has taken against Ialpa accusing it of conducting an "organised campaign of harassment and intimidation of Ryanair pilots" through a website set up last year for its pilots.
Ryanair has claimed the website, www.repaweb.org, had been a conduit for intimidation of pilots considering flying the airline's new Boeing 737-800 series aircraft to be based in Dublin later this year.
"In addition to threatening and intimidating Ryanair pilots, this website has also published specific threats ... which have been the source of a formal complaint to the Garda Síochána," it said.
Ryanair could have to pay out €44m to pilots
Siobhán Creaton, Finance Correspondent
Ryanair could potentially face a compensation bill of up to €44 million if the 170 victimisation claims taken by its Dublin-based pilots were to be upheld by a rights commissioner. The first of these cases is expected to be heard in mid-June.
The complaints, some of which have been lodged by the airline's most senior pilots, stem from Ryanair's action in seeking to persuade the pilots to accept terms and conditions attached to their training to fly its new fleet of aircraft.
The initial complaints were first submitted by the airline's eight most senior captains to the Labour Relations Commission last November. Many of the pilots have made multiple complaints.
In the past week, fresh victimisation claims have been made on grounds of the airline's refusal to give the pilots a pay rise. Ryanair said on Tuesday that it had awarded a 3 per cent pay increase to its staff with the exception of its pilots.
It said that the increase, backdated to April 1st, had been granted following "direct negotiations" with its staff last month.
It claimed that the pay rise was awarded to staff who negotiated directly with the company. The pilots are members of the Irish Air Line Pilots Association (Ialpa), which is part of trade union Impact. Ryanair claimed it withheld their pay increase because they had chosen not to negotiate with the airline.
The victimisation claims will be heard by a rights commissioner who has the powers to award a maximum settlement equal to twice the complainant's salary where a claim is upheld.
Ryanair has claimed that its team of pilots are among the highest paid in the airline industry and earn up to €130,000 a year.
Each of the pilots could stand to win compensation of up to €260,000 if successful.
Sources among the pilots suggest that up to 70 further victimisation complaints may yet be taken.
The Labour Court is to investigate a case taken by the Ialpa on behalf of some Ryanair pilots relating to their terms and conditions of employment.
The investigation will centre on the pilots' right to training by the airline, their contracts and rights where redundancies are sought.
The Labour Court findings are binding.
Ryanair is claiming that the new Industrial Relations (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2004 cannot be used to enforce trade union recognition against an employer, such as Ryanair, which does not engage in negotiations with trade unions.
The Labour Court accepted this submission but noted that the legislation does provide a measure of protection to employees when pay and conditions are not freely determined by collective bargaining.
Capt John Goss, the pilot who secured an injunction restraining Ryanair from conducting disciplinary proceedings against him pending a full court challenge, was among the group of the airline's eight most senior pilots to lodge the first victimisation claim.
The airline is also fighting a number of separate legal challenges related to its ongoing dispute with its pilots.
These include High Court proceedings it has taken against Ialpa accusing it of conducting an "organised campaign of harassment and intimidation of Ryanair pilots" through a website set up last year for its pilots.
Ryanair has claimed the website, www.repaweb.org, had been a conduit for intimidation of pilots considering flying the airline's new Boeing 737-800 series aircraft to be based in Dublin later this year.
"In addition to threatening and intimidating Ryanair pilots, this website has also published specific threats ... which have been the source of a formal complaint to the Garda Síochána," it said.
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Not a single toy left in the cot this morning
* JG cleared for take-off this PM
* No camel friendly second terminal
* A caller to RTE's 5 -7 live programme (the drive time news slot) complaining about the lack lustre Ryanair share performance and demanding that O'Leary spend more time looking after the business and less time shooting his mouth off.
Is this the beginning of the end? Concerns at the board table about failure to follow legal advice? Where will it all end?
* JG cleared for take-off this PM
* No camel friendly second terminal
* A caller to RTE's 5 -7 live programme (the drive time news slot) complaining about the lack lustre Ryanair share performance and demanding that O'Leary spend more time looking after the business and less time shooting his mouth off.
Is this the beginning of the end? Concerns at the board table about failure to follow legal advice? Where will it all end?
Last edited by Camel Killer; 19th May 2005 at 10:41.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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to quote "737"on the "Monopoly thread"
The Ryanair Ops Manual was ammended on March 24 2005 to remove all mention of MOL.
The CEO/Accountable Manager is now listed as Mr Howard Miller.
"Me wonders" if the IAA had anything to do with it?
The Ryanair Ops Manual was ammended on March 24 2005 to remove all mention of MOL.
The CEO/Accountable Manager is now listed as Mr Howard Miller.
"Me wonders" if the IAA had anything to do with it?