Ryanair launches legal action against pilots' union (merged)
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
Join Date: May 1999
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hec7or
No I wasn't joking. The sick joke is that so many people are so afraid of their management that they are prepared to put up with the flagrant breach of the law. The result of not eating properly is a low blood sugar level and possible collapse hardly what you need in the crew of an operating aircraft.
It is however a bit "off topic" but a good reason why people need a Union or effective Association. The strange thing about some current airline management is that they appear to make the case for pilot representation better than the pilots do themselves.
The best way for you to defend yourselves just now is use a fax to communicate with your managers and send a copy to the IAA.
No I wasn't joking. The sick joke is that so many people are so afraid of their management that they are prepared to put up with the flagrant breach of the law. The result of not eating properly is a low blood sugar level and possible collapse hardly what you need in the crew of an operating aircraft.
It is however a bit "off topic" but a good reason why people need a Union or effective Association. The strange thing about some current airline management is that they appear to make the case for pilot representation better than the pilots do themselves.
The best way for you to defend yourselves just now is use a fax to communicate with your managers and send a copy to the IAA.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: my cockpit
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your only solution is to stick together and STRIKE !!!
No blablas, just strike and make your demands clear. Strike over a long period of time or everyone of you guys will be running on miserable T&Cs in less time needed to even realise what's happening.
The image Jo Public is receiving of you is not important and should not be considered. Also, WHO IS THE FAT CAT HERE ? If there is one, that's MOL and a handfull of associates. Not you. I'd love to know how much is on his bank account in cash and stocks. You'd be weeping before you miserable plastic sandwich thinking about it.
Have no fear, just act as MOL does : be hard.
Good luck to you.
No blablas, just strike and make your demands clear. Strike over a long period of time or everyone of you guys will be running on miserable T&Cs in less time needed to even realise what's happening.
The image Jo Public is receiving of you is not important and should not be considered. Also, WHO IS THE FAT CAT HERE ? If there is one, that's MOL and a handfull of associates. Not you. I'd love to know how much is on his bank account in cash and stocks. You'd be weeping before you miserable plastic sandwich thinking about it.
Have no fear, just act as MOL does : be hard.
Good luck to you.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your only solution is to stick together and STRIKE !!!
Absolutely...........but is there the backbone to do it, will BALPA/IALAP provide strike pay to REPA members and will it acheive anything?
Regards,
DFC
PS - Why does maxalt sign his message "BOAC"?.........does BOAC not object to this being a moderator and all that?
Absolutely...........but is there the backbone to do it, will BALPA/IALAP provide strike pay to REPA members and will it acheive anything?
Regards,
DFC
PS - Why does maxalt sign his message "BOAC"?.........does BOAC not object to this being a moderator and all that?
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Euroland
Posts: 2,814
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This whole argument about unions is apparently taking an unexpected twist!!!
Ryanair have gone to the courts to have the identity of people making posts on a web site revealed.
Everyone has jumped up and down and shouted about how bad this is and how a union is required to sort the whole thing out.
Now we hear that the Irish teacher's union ASTI, is watching very carefully what happens in the Ryanair case because it is hoping that Ryanair are succesfull. !!!!!
If as the teacher's union hope Ryanair are succesful, the ASTI can use the precident to close down a site that they claim is posting defamatory statements from students about tecahers in Ireland!
However, we see that in France, there is a strike today in protest about companies using workers from outside the EU when EU workers are available.
In Ireland today there is a "protest" by nurses regarding conditions.
Come on the complainers - have a "protest" - stop whinging and do something.........or eventually you will simply be regarded as boys that call wolf. (Ryanair bashing in PPRuNe terms).
Don't forget that all the Ryanair pilots paying UK tax are paying a part of the wages at the heavily unionised (3 unions) longbridge plant this week.........yet another case of a workforce that can't compete in todays efficient and cost effective industry but expect that the public should support a product that does not sell and costs too much to produce.
The goose that lays the low cost golden egg may peck your ass incessantly but are you really going to kill it?
Regards,
DFC
Ryanair have gone to the courts to have the identity of people making posts on a web site revealed.
Everyone has jumped up and down and shouted about how bad this is and how a union is required to sort the whole thing out.
Now we hear that the Irish teacher's union ASTI, is watching very carefully what happens in the Ryanair case because it is hoping that Ryanair are succesfull. !!!!!
If as the teacher's union hope Ryanair are succesful, the ASTI can use the precident to close down a site that they claim is posting defamatory statements from students about tecahers in Ireland!
However, we see that in France, there is a strike today in protest about companies using workers from outside the EU when EU workers are available.
In Ireland today there is a "protest" by nurses regarding conditions.
Come on the complainers - have a "protest" - stop whinging and do something.........or eventually you will simply be regarded as boys that call wolf. (Ryanair bashing in PPRuNe terms).
Don't forget that all the Ryanair pilots paying UK tax are paying a part of the wages at the heavily unionised (3 unions) longbridge plant this week.........yet another case of a workforce that can't compete in todays efficient and cost effective industry but expect that the public should support a product that does not sell and costs too much to produce.
The goose that lays the low cost golden egg may peck your ass incessantly but are you really going to kill it?
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DFC what a strange set of attitudes. You want some kind of action, you talk about "strike pay" and you talk about not "killing the goose that lays the low cost golden egg". A change of orientation in your posts perhaps?
You seem to have missed the often repeated point that all Ryanair pilots want is to be treated properly (you know, civilised, rational, and non-ranting management behaviour in an airline where undertakings mean what they say). Specifically, Ryanair pilots wish to work in an environment in which they will not be subject to implicit or explicit threats and vindicative behaviour.
Nobody wants to go on strike or to damage Ryanair. Even those bad union people don't seem to want it. How come you have had an attack of the "let's rush to the barricades"?
Interestingly your tone very much reflects the word from Dublin about sentiments expressed by great leader MOL at yesterday's early morning management meeting. You are either very well informed, or an interesting coincidence has just occurred.
You seem to have missed the often repeated point that all Ryanair pilots want is to be treated properly (you know, civilised, rational, and non-ranting management behaviour in an airline where undertakings mean what they say). Specifically, Ryanair pilots wish to work in an environment in which they will not be subject to implicit or explicit threats and vindicative behaviour.
Nobody wants to go on strike or to damage Ryanair. Even those bad union people don't seem to want it. How come you have had an attack of the "let's rush to the barricades"?
Interestingly your tone very much reflects the word from Dublin about sentiments expressed by great leader MOL at yesterday's early morning management meeting. You are either very well informed, or an interesting coincidence has just occurred.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: right behind you
Posts: 523
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dfc,
no one wants to see ryanair destroyed.we want to see it led successfully.not by a bunch of bluffers and bullies.
we are taking action and it will take time.we have plenty of that.
no one wants to see ryanair destroyed.we want to see it led successfully.not by a bunch of bluffers and bullies.
we are taking action and it will take time.we have plenty of that.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: my cockpit
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exclusive legal action will only lead to grim compromise as it is not representative of pure and absolute justice. The outcome in a trial is the result of clout, PR, etc... That applies especially to industrial trials (as opposed to civil issues). They are very much teinted by influences acting in the shade of the court room. And MOL and his flock are battling hard to get the pin pointing in THEIR right direction.
A mixture of industrial action and industrial trial is way more efficient. In any case, you must not allow yourselves to get mislead by fear. What you need to fear is a situation whereby power is not balanced as it will ruin every single one of you in a longer run.
Also, a strike will not destroy Ryanair. Ryanair has way enough cash at hand to face grounded aircraft for weeks.
What a strike will do is make shareholders very, VERY unhappy and demanding explanations and results from the board of directors. Pressure on them will be immense. Nobody\'s expecting a strike and the share price would surely get hurt for a while.
This pressure on MOL\'s shoulders would be even greater as orders for an extra 70 acft has just been launched.
On the opposite, you pilots would feel a great pressure relief watching the scene. And negociations would finally be efficient, both-sided and creative for both sides for a long while. You would not be feeling stuffed anymore and you would feel respected again. On top of this, you\'d probably have more time for yourselves (family, leisure...) should negociations lead to better rosters.
BUT ! Rest assured operations would keep going. Ryanair would keep existing. Maybe without MOL but it would live. It\'s just too strong to go down the drain.
Good luck.
P.S. There\'s no reason why you should lose where many have won before.
A mixture of industrial action and industrial trial is way more efficient. In any case, you must not allow yourselves to get mislead by fear. What you need to fear is a situation whereby power is not balanced as it will ruin every single one of you in a longer run.
Also, a strike will not destroy Ryanair. Ryanair has way enough cash at hand to face grounded aircraft for weeks.
What a strike will do is make shareholders very, VERY unhappy and demanding explanations and results from the board of directors. Pressure on them will be immense. Nobody\'s expecting a strike and the share price would surely get hurt for a while.
This pressure on MOL\'s shoulders would be even greater as orders for an extra 70 acft has just been launched.
On the opposite, you pilots would feel a great pressure relief watching the scene. And negociations would finally be efficient, both-sided and creative for both sides for a long while. You would not be feeling stuffed anymore and you would feel respected again. On top of this, you\'d probably have more time for yourselves (family, leisure...) should negociations lead to better rosters.
BUT ! Rest assured operations would keep going. Ryanair would keep existing. Maybe without MOL but it would live. It\'s just too strong to go down the drain.
Good luck.
P.S. There\'s no reason why you should lose where many have won before.
With almost half a century of flying behind me and having spent quite a lot of that trying to "organise" pilots my advice to you is that you have no chance of getting a total walk-out in Ryanair.
There are too many nationalities and bases involved and I very much doubt that you have all developed such an esprit de corps that a 100% militant desire to walk out between all of the bases exists.
MOL has cleverly built up a devisive society and is obviously counting on the fact that if "the Irish" won't do it the "Belgians will".
Even if you were to organise a total walk out what do you think would happen then? The European Union has now been expanded to 25 countries and I am quite sure that 737 qualified pilots from some of those new countries would not hesitate to take your jobs (I have already seen this).
The saddest thing that I have ever witnessed was a bunch of ex-Continental guys dressed up in their uniforms at Denver holding up anti-Continental banners in front of the terminal whilst all the new guys walked straight past them - 3 years after they had lost their battle.
If you want to beat MOL, you will have to be very, very clever. Indeed, you will have to do it quite quickly for I saw him on Continental TV recently promising that he was going to retire in three years time for sure.
I had a boss like that once - he sold all the aeroplanes overnight and retired as a billionaire!
There are too many nationalities and bases involved and I very much doubt that you have all developed such an esprit de corps that a 100% militant desire to walk out between all of the bases exists.
MOL has cleverly built up a devisive society and is obviously counting on the fact that if "the Irish" won't do it the "Belgians will".
Even if you were to organise a total walk out what do you think would happen then? The European Union has now been expanded to 25 countries and I am quite sure that 737 qualified pilots from some of those new countries would not hesitate to take your jobs (I have already seen this).
The saddest thing that I have ever witnessed was a bunch of ex-Continental guys dressed up in their uniforms at Denver holding up anti-Continental banners in front of the terminal whilst all the new guys walked straight past them - 3 years after they had lost their battle.
If you want to beat MOL, you will have to be very, very clever. Indeed, you will have to do it quite quickly for I saw him on Continental TV recently promising that he was going to retire in three years time for sure.
I had a boss like that once - he sold all the aeroplanes overnight and retired as a billionaire!
With the greatest of respect, how do any of us know that Ryanaire's performance is sustainable? My B.S. detector has started to twitch.
DFC you say "that can't compete in todays efficient and cost effective industry but expect that the public should support a product that does not sell and costs too much to produce."
I am afraid I have seen many companies in many industries undercut their competition, claiming that they have found new business methods and strategies that make them more "cost competitive" than other merket participants.
They generally make life miserable for their competitors until they eventually go spectacularly broke.
It then transpires that one of the following "strategies" was in play all along.
- "buying business", this is a convoluted game where you convince yourself that you can sell below cost, betting that your major competitors will go bankrupt before you do. You can then dominate the market and make up your losses.
- "Milking", a form of what is euphemistically often called "harvesting". This is where you bludgeon your staff, suppliers and regulators into giving you their products and services at less than their cost of production.
This is a form of bettting that other companies will not pay your staff more and lure them away, and that your suppliers will not have better companies to sell their goods to. The usual management rationale for this game is "If I can get big enough, soon enough, then my suppliers will have no option but to supply me, and my staff will have no one else to work for".
There are infinite variations and combinations of these two processes, but companies that do this eventually change or go under.
Ryanaire's attempts to get pilots names appears to be an extremely thinly veiled attempt to find people to victimise. My view is that if their entire business strategy is to bludgeon their staff into submission this way, then they are not a stable company to work for in the longer term.
DFC you say "that can't compete in todays efficient and cost effective industry but expect that the public should support a product that does not sell and costs too much to produce."
I am afraid I have seen many companies in many industries undercut their competition, claiming that they have found new business methods and strategies that make them more "cost competitive" than other merket participants.
They generally make life miserable for their competitors until they eventually go spectacularly broke.
It then transpires that one of the following "strategies" was in play all along.
- "buying business", this is a convoluted game where you convince yourself that you can sell below cost, betting that your major competitors will go bankrupt before you do. You can then dominate the market and make up your losses.
- "Milking", a form of what is euphemistically often called "harvesting". This is where you bludgeon your staff, suppliers and regulators into giving you their products and services at less than their cost of production.
This is a form of bettting that other companies will not pay your staff more and lure them away, and that your suppliers will not have better companies to sell their goods to. The usual management rationale for this game is "If I can get big enough, soon enough, then my suppliers will have no option but to supply me, and my staff will have no one else to work for".
There are infinite variations and combinations of these two processes, but companies that do this eventually change or go under.
Ryanaire's attempts to get pilots names appears to be an extremely thinly veiled attempt to find people to victimise. My view is that if their entire business strategy is to bludgeon their staff into submission this way, then they are not a stable company to work for in the longer term.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Mid Atlantic
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maxalt drew attention in his post of April 1st to the plight of non-unionised workers in Ireland. In particular he mentioned Turkish building workers. Those of you who aren't based in Ireland might be interested in the latest on the issue...it is illustrative of how non-unionised workers will be treated in extremis.
All hell has broken loose in the media here. It has emerged that these workers have had a total of thirty (30) million euro with-held from them and lodged in a Dutch bank account which they can't access. The workers are currently on strike, and (as one supporter at their protest outside the Irish parliament today noted) they didn't even have the bus money to get to the rally!
The buiding project these guys were working on was (get this) a government road project, and the coalition government minority party (the 'Progressive Democrats') had long sung the praises of how great the Turkish workers were, and how great the Turkish company was, and how market forces were exposing the weakness of the lazy/overpaid Irish workforce! This came in the same week as a report that shows Irish workers are working longer hours on average than ANY other european population.
The naked greed of the modern Capitalist system is being laid bare for all to see in this lovely little country - this is what O'Leary stands for. Exploitation.
As Sunfish points out, the ultimate destination of this race to the bottom, led by the grasping avarice of Big Business, is the enslavement and impoverishment of working people.
All those who bash unions and aid this project are satans little helpers.
All hell has broken loose in the media here. It has emerged that these workers have had a total of thirty (30) million euro with-held from them and lodged in a Dutch bank account which they can't access. The workers are currently on strike, and (as one supporter at their protest outside the Irish parliament today noted) they didn't even have the bus money to get to the rally!
The buiding project these guys were working on was (get this) a government road project, and the coalition government minority party (the 'Progressive Democrats') had long sung the praises of how great the Turkish workers were, and how great the Turkish company was, and how market forces were exposing the weakness of the lazy/overpaid Irish workforce! This came in the same week as a report that shows Irish workers are working longer hours on average than ANY other european population.
The naked greed of the modern Capitalist system is being laid bare for all to see in this lovely little country - this is what O'Leary stands for. Exploitation.
As Sunfish points out, the ultimate destination of this race to the bottom, led by the grasping avarice of Big Business, is the enslavement and impoverishment of working people.
All those who bash unions and aid this project are satans little helpers.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: my cockpit
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JW411, I understand your point eventhough I do not agree with you.
First of all, I think a well-organised movement can ground around 90% of aircraft through all Ryanair bases. It only takes one pilot going on strike to keep the airplane on the ground. And even if the airline manages to find another pilot, disruptions will be great for this specific flight and for others. THere is a snowball effect which is absolutely uncontrollable. You find that in many cases before, 50% of staff walking out caused 80% of flights cancelled over a week. It always starts well and gets more complicated with the hours (resting time of those who flew, pilots who flew on the first place and decided to join into the battle after 1 or 2 days into such movement, etc...)
Second, Ryanair has become so big it would simply be impossible to recruit, train, control such a number of pilots. Especially as so few people in Europe want to work for Ryanair, apart from rookies. This was not the case for Continental which was a decent airline. You won't build a pilot's population from rookies who leave the airline at the first whistle's blow from the market (i.e. BA, Virgin, etc...)
I think for once, power is in the pilots' hands. Never have so many pilots joined a union and figures are increasing. The situation IS evolving and is much different from that 1 year ago (except T&Cs have gone more complex and worsened since then).
First of all, I think a well-organised movement can ground around 90% of aircraft through all Ryanair bases. It only takes one pilot going on strike to keep the airplane on the ground. And even if the airline manages to find another pilot, disruptions will be great for this specific flight and for others. THere is a snowball effect which is absolutely uncontrollable. You find that in many cases before, 50% of staff walking out caused 80% of flights cancelled over a week. It always starts well and gets more complicated with the hours (resting time of those who flew, pilots who flew on the first place and decided to join into the battle after 1 or 2 days into such movement, etc...)
Second, Ryanair has become so big it would simply be impossible to recruit, train, control such a number of pilots. Especially as so few people in Europe want to work for Ryanair, apart from rookies. This was not the case for Continental which was a decent airline. You won't build a pilot's population from rookies who leave the airline at the first whistle's blow from the market (i.e. BA, Virgin, etc...)
I think for once, power is in the pilots' hands. Never have so many pilots joined a union and figures are increasing. The situation IS evolving and is much different from that 1 year ago (except T&Cs have gone more complex and worsened since then).
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: ireland
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are Ryanair trying to sack their senior pilots
I hear that ryanair are taking the 8 most senior pilots off the roster in the hope that the rest will go on strike and therby nullify the court action being taken against the company. is this credible.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is credible. With Ryanair anything is credible. (However the idea of provoking a strike is unlikely since everyone has been saying for some time that a strike is neither necessary nor appropriate).
Also the information you provided is not correct. The correct version will take a little more time to surface. It looks like one pilot has been suspended (on pay) and that a number of the most senior and the most junior have received letters from Ryanair.
Another period of "fun and games with Ryanair" looks likely to commence. This is starting in the normal way: something adverse happens to one (as a warning) and the others are given unpalatable (or disgraceful) choices against a close deadline. One to one "bumping into in the corridor" and "doom laden" meetings will occur. Old formula, new manifestation!
P.S. Should this not be part of the existing thread on Ryanair? If we have a new post for each new Ryanair affront to civilised standards there will be one every couple of hours.
Also the information you provided is not correct. The correct version will take a little more time to surface. It looks like one pilot has been suspended (on pay) and that a number of the most senior and the most junior have received letters from Ryanair.
Another period of "fun and games with Ryanair" looks likely to commence. This is starting in the normal way: something adverse happens to one (as a warning) and the others are given unpalatable (or disgraceful) choices against a close deadline. One to one "bumping into in the corridor" and "doom laden" meetings will occur. Old formula, new manifestation!
P.S. Should this not be part of the existing thread on Ryanair? If we have a new post for each new Ryanair affront to civilised standards there will be one every couple of hours.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Bucks
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
New Legal Action
Will the camel be put behind bars.
Its not over till the fat lady sings.
High Court on Tuesday, buy your ticket now.
http://www.rte.ie/business/2005/0414/ryanair2.html
Its not over till the fat lady sings.
High Court on Tuesday, buy your ticket now.
http://www.rte.ie/business/2005/0414/ryanair2.html
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Asia
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Once upon a time,
in a small country the other side of the channel pilots thinks they had a strong case of non respect of their contracts by the management of their company.
They sued the company. After several years, the company lawyers using a lot of "time gaining" technique, the company lost the trial.
Obviously, the pilots were very happy except nothing changed. The company still was not respecting both contracts and court ruling. So the pilots return to see the judge, but it took a long time, company lawyers still using the same techniques. And when decision should finally have been taken, it didn't matter anymore because company have issued new contracts since several months.
But of course, lawyers fees have nearly bankrupt the small pilot association.
Several months later, another dispute arrives, this time pilots go the airport and read their newpapers in the crew room waiting for the dispute to be solved.
The next day everything was solved maybe not to the satisfaction is everyone but at least to the acceptance of both parties.
STRIKE guys, don't wait, solve the problem one and for all !
in a small country the other side of the channel pilots thinks they had a strong case of non respect of their contracts by the management of their company.
They sued the company. After several years, the company lawyers using a lot of "time gaining" technique, the company lost the trial.
Obviously, the pilots were very happy except nothing changed. The company still was not respecting both contracts and court ruling. So the pilots return to see the judge, but it took a long time, company lawyers still using the same techniques. And when decision should finally have been taken, it didn't matter anymore because company have issued new contracts since several months.
But of course, lawyers fees have nearly bankrupt the small pilot association.
Several months later, another dispute arrives, this time pilots go the airport and read their newpapers in the crew room waiting for the dispute to be solved.
The next day everything was solved maybe not to the satisfaction is everyone but at least to the acceptance of both parties.
STRIKE guys, don't wait, solve the problem one and for all !
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
According to this mornings Irish papers the accusation is that Ryanair is in contempt of court as a result of the injunction obtained at an earlier date by the Ryanair captain. He is quoted as saying in his affidavit that:
Long time Ryanair observers will no doubt feel that there is a lot of truth in what he has had to say.
...... he believed the real reason for his suspension was to subject him to further bullying, harassment and intimidation. It was also meant to send out a message to other Ryanair pilots that anyone who challenged the company or attempted to enforce their lawful rights as employees, as he had done, would be made to suffer by the company and may have their employment put in jeopardy.
"In a statement (Thursday) evening, Ryanair said it had no knowledge of any court proceedings (on Thursay) nor had it been notified of any. 'Furthermore we do not respond to trade union leaks or tip offs to RTE,' the statement added."
He really is adding to his fan club, isn't he? That's RTE insulted for reporting the truth.
He really is adding to his fan club, isn't he? That's RTE insulted for reporting the truth.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nope BEagle, it is worse. In fact it is a complete misrepresentation of the facts. I have been told that on the evening radio show on RTE yesterday evening their claim generated a comment from the RTE presenter to the effect that the information came from a reporter attached to the courts and not from any trade union source. And, as for the denial of any knowledge about the matter, it turns out that the Court – not the pilot’s legal representatives – were responsible for delivering the relevant documents to Ryanair + the two named Executives, and obtaining the necessary signatures for same. Only after those documents were delivered, and signed for, could the action before the judge have taken place.
Ryanair’s famous economy with the truth demonstrating itself once again!
Where are DFC, Hairy thing, etc, etc. now that we need them to interpret and clarify things for us?
Ryanair’s famous economy with the truth demonstrating itself once again!
Where are DFC, Hairy thing, etc, etc. now that we need them to interpret and clarify things for us?