Ryanair launches legal action against pilots' union (merged)
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PO,
I guess those you meet are the lucky few? Or could it be they are not 100% honest in their responses?
Joyce,
Your level of exaggeration is almost reaching that of a Ryanair press release.
Cheers
BHR
I guess those you meet are the lucky few? Or could it be they are not 100% honest in their responses?
Joyce,
Your level of exaggeration is almost reaching that of a Ryanair press release.
Cheers
BHR
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I don't care if it is Joyce or Hairy or Ozi or anybody... but can we have some answers? If not, then why don't we just ask them to go away when they come back for another go. Ryanair and those who make excuses for them must not be allowed to get away with making claims that never stand up.
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atse
No false claims that don't 'stand up'...
I never go by this airline - if I fly somewhere, I prefer to spend a little more money and go in a lot more style and comfort, BUT:
It is a successful airline and is expanding
It provides air travel for people who otherwise couldn't afford it
To places that wouldn't see passengers without it
It provides worthwhile jobs for many pilots, engineers and cabin staff
I might condemn it for a rude and arrogant style that stems from the top but I must be fair and praise it for the reasons above. The pilots don't enjoy the privileged life of old that the likes of me enjoyed - but we must all move with the times.
..and once again, I am not Ryanair management, never was, and never use the airline as a pax.
Joyce
No false claims that don't 'stand up'...
I never go by this airline - if I fly somewhere, I prefer to spend a little more money and go in a lot more style and comfort, BUT:
It is a successful airline and is expanding
It provides air travel for people who otherwise couldn't afford it
To places that wouldn't see passengers without it
It provides worthwhile jobs for many pilots, engineers and cabin staff
I might condemn it for a rude and arrogant style that stems from the top but I must be fair and praise it for the reasons above. The pilots don't enjoy the privileged life of old that the likes of me enjoyed - but we must all move with the times.
..and once again, I am not Ryanair management, never was, and never use the airline as a pax.
Joyce
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Joyce, I was just inviting somebody, anybody, who is a Ryanair apologist - which you seem to be - to answer the question that was posed. You seem to want to be an apologist, but not to taken any interest in how they "do their Ryanair thing". Fine, that says all I need to know.
However, as somebody above has already said, Ryanair apologists quickly go to ground or divert the subject when direct or difficult questions get asked. All I am asking for is an answer. Thanks for telling us that you don't have one.
So, it must be over to Leo - are you still claiming sub judice? Leo you made the claim, give us the info. I have a bias, which is to believe that Ryanair have almost certainly behaved very badly in this matter. That can be successfully challenged by proving that what you said was true. Simple, eh?
However, as somebody above has already said, Ryanair apologists quickly go to ground or divert the subject when direct or difficult questions get asked. All I am asking for is an answer. Thanks for telling us that you don't have one.
So, it must be over to Leo - are you still claiming sub judice? Leo you made the claim, give us the info. I have a bias, which is to believe that Ryanair have almost certainly behaved very badly in this matter. That can be successfully challenged by proving that what you said was true. Simple, eh?
With the greatest of respect,
"t is a successful airline and is expanding
It provides air travel for people who otherwise couldn't afford it
To places that wouldn't see passengers without it
It provides worthwhile jobs for many pilots, engineers and cabin staff"
Yes, but is it sustainable? I suggest after it has survived for about 50 years we will know the answer. Who knows what sort of interesting accounting is going on to make it profitable?
"t is a successful airline and is expanding
It provides air travel for people who otherwise couldn't afford it
To places that wouldn't see passengers without it
It provides worthwhile jobs for many pilots, engineers and cabin staff"
Yes, but is it sustainable? I suggest after it has survived for about 50 years we will know the answer. Who knows what sort of interesting accounting is going on to make it profitable?
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As an independent observer, I have yet to see any of the evidence that atse calls for from any side so what I see is;
One arrogant group shouting it's mouth off in public..........go down the average UK city high street at the weekend and you will see the same thing as the Pubs kick out.........but atleast they have taken drink!
Jim McAuslan, general secretary of the British Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa), said: "We shall vigorously defend our position in refusing to divulge names of pilots who discuss with one another their problems and aspirations."
So Jim McAuslan would see nothing wrong with the CAA inspectors having a public forum where they comment on the internal company issues that they come across in dealing with BALPA mambers in the course of their work.......or would he?
When BALPA members meet to discuss issues that affect their members they normally do so out of the public eye.........they don't stand in the street and shout for all commers to see.
Why do they not do the same for the REPA website........unless that had the motive of doing Ryanair some damage through bad publicity?.
But unions don't ever want to do public damage to the employer because that would be detrimental to the union objectives of fair pay and good working conditions.............unless the "union" had other motives.
Regards,
DFC
One arrogant group shouting it's mouth off in public..........go down the average UK city high street at the weekend and you will see the same thing as the Pubs kick out.........but atleast they have taken drink!
Jim McAuslan, general secretary of the British Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa), said: "We shall vigorously defend our position in refusing to divulge names of pilots who discuss with one another their problems and aspirations."
So Jim McAuslan would see nothing wrong with the CAA inspectors having a public forum where they comment on the internal company issues that they come across in dealing with BALPA mambers in the course of their work.......or would he?
When BALPA members meet to discuss issues that affect their members they normally do so out of the public eye.........they don't stand in the street and shout for all commers to see.
Why do they not do the same for the REPA website........unless that had the motive of doing Ryanair some damage through bad publicity?.
But unions don't ever want to do public damage to the employer because that would be detrimental to the union objectives of fair pay and good working conditions.............unless the "union" had other motives.
Regards,
DFC
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DFC you are not an independent observer, as your entirely one-sided comments make clear. In fact, if you go back to the begining of this entire thread and count down about 20 posts you will find.... EVIDENCE.
It is in the form of a memo issued by Ryanair that delivers .... retribution. This raises an interesting question about what it is that is NOT put in writing.
All you did was to take the opportunity to do something that is very characteristic of Ryanair, which is to twist the situation into creating an opportunity to strike out at unions.
So, while we await the elusive "Leo the Unready" to appear and provide support for his wild claim, can you go read the memo and comment upon same please. That should provide be a good measure of the independence to which you lay claim. After all, the memo is either acceptable or not. Whay say you DFC?
It is in the form of a memo issued by Ryanair that delivers .... retribution. This raises an interesting question about what it is that is NOT put in writing.
All you did was to take the opportunity to do something that is very characteristic of Ryanair, which is to twist the situation into creating an opportunity to strike out at unions.
So, while we await the elusive "Leo the Unready" to appear and provide support for his wild claim, can you go read the memo and comment upon same please. That should provide be a good measure of the independence to which you lay claim. After all, the memo is either acceptable or not. Whay say you DFC?
Yes, Comical Leo Hairy Hole has been conspicuous by his absence of late....
As a mere SLF, I would never consider flying with an airline which treats its people in such a way and makes such wild accusations about bona fide collective bargaining methods. The underlying stress which such behaviour must cause the flight and cabin crews is entirely prejudicial to flight safety and I wouldn't want to be on board an aeroplane under such conditions.
And yet it wouldn't take very much for this to be resolved amicably - it's just a shame that certain people are too thick to realise it.
Will RyanAir still be around in a few years' time if it carries on this way? In the delightful words of one of its hierarchy: "I don't give a ****e".........
As a mere SLF, I would never consider flying with an airline which treats its people in such a way and makes such wild accusations about bona fide collective bargaining methods. The underlying stress which such behaviour must cause the flight and cabin crews is entirely prejudicial to flight safety and I wouldn't want to be on board an aeroplane under such conditions.
And yet it wouldn't take very much for this to be resolved amicably - it's just a shame that certain people are too thick to realise it.
Will RyanAir still be around in a few years' time if it carries on this way? In the delightful words of one of its hierarchy: "I don't give a ****e".........
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atse,
My independence rests on the fact that I have no interest in either side's position. That does not prevent me from commenting about what I observe.
The post you refer to does not contain any evidence of a memo from anyone to anyone else. What is does contain is a claim by someone that what they have included is and I quote;
but hey its only a rumour right?
I could turn round and quote a memo from the Queen saying that she is going to give it all up and go live in a council house on benefit.......at least in the case of the Queen you can read the original print for yourself and make up your own mind about the story!
Part of the problem with Ryanair is that it has expanded from the airline where the pilots help load the bags if necessary to the current situation where pilots complain if they don't get free food on the flight deck but the Management has not moved it's position.
Do ATCOs get free food supplied?........if not then they must have the same argument as Ryanair Pilots have for free food?...........Don't ATCOs have unions?........
While I can't say I agree with how Ryanair handled the situation described by Shamjet - (Shamrock Jet - Aer Lingus?) one can see the point is valid - if you win an argument that a previous agreement is void then anything that was carried out as a result of that void agreement is also void.
No one likes the idea of an airline saying to a pilot that they must either pay for a type training or expect redundancy.......however pilots have brought it on themselves - how many pilots are only too willing to run off and pay for an initial type rating or even two just so as to be at the front of the job que..............................getting a professional pilot job has for many years now been more a case of how much money is in your pocket than how good you are (and that shows in the RH seat ;(.............all Ryanair do is use the willingness of pilots to walkover each other for a few more £ for it's own benefit.
BEagle is typical of people who have no interest in the situation other than to use it to try and put untrue safety fears in the public mind.
If pilots are stressed prior to flight the IAA/CAA requires them not to fly........if they ignore the IAA/CAA requirements then it is the pilot's fault........if they are dismissed as a result of not flying on safety grounds, they will have a field day in court..........provided they have the backbone to actually make that safety decision.
I can't say that I agree with "Leo Hairy-Camel" has to say in some of his posts, I think his treatment by other posters on this forum is typical of almost every thred on PPRune - when anyone fails to agree with some posters, they are personally attacked in various ways.
Isn't that in itself intimidation designed to put pressure on people not to speak out or disagree with the established poster club...........definitely a case of doubble standards comming from professional people who calim to be doing something for people who are intimidated!
Every poster that as used derogitary comments about any poster here regardless of their views is doing exactly what thay complain MOL does...........in person without hiding behind an internet forum!
Regards,
DFC
My independence rests on the fact that I have no interest in either side's position. That does not prevent me from commenting about what I observe.
The post you refer to does not contain any evidence of a memo from anyone to anyone else. What is does contain is a claim by someone that what they have included is and I quote;
but hey its only a rumour right?
I could turn round and quote a memo from the Queen saying that she is going to give it all up and go live in a council house on benefit.......at least in the case of the Queen you can read the original print for yourself and make up your own mind about the story!
Part of the problem with Ryanair is that it has expanded from the airline where the pilots help load the bags if necessary to the current situation where pilots complain if they don't get free food on the flight deck but the Management has not moved it's position.
Do ATCOs get free food supplied?........if not then they must have the same argument as Ryanair Pilots have for free food?...........Don't ATCOs have unions?........
While I can't say I agree with how Ryanair handled the situation described by Shamjet - (Shamrock Jet - Aer Lingus?) one can see the point is valid - if you win an argument that a previous agreement is void then anything that was carried out as a result of that void agreement is also void.
No one likes the idea of an airline saying to a pilot that they must either pay for a type training or expect redundancy.......however pilots have brought it on themselves - how many pilots are only too willing to run off and pay for an initial type rating or even two just so as to be at the front of the job que..............................getting a professional pilot job has for many years now been more a case of how much money is in your pocket than how good you are (and that shows in the RH seat ;(.............all Ryanair do is use the willingness of pilots to walkover each other for a few more £ for it's own benefit.
BEagle is typical of people who have no interest in the situation other than to use it to try and put untrue safety fears in the public mind.
If pilots are stressed prior to flight the IAA/CAA requires them not to fly........if they ignore the IAA/CAA requirements then it is the pilot's fault........if they are dismissed as a result of not flying on safety grounds, they will have a field day in court..........provided they have the backbone to actually make that safety decision.
I can't say that I agree with "Leo Hairy-Camel" has to say in some of his posts, I think his treatment by other posters on this forum is typical of almost every thred on PPRune - when anyone fails to agree with some posters, they are personally attacked in various ways.
Isn't that in itself intimidation designed to put pressure on people not to speak out or disagree with the established poster club...........definitely a case of doubble standards comming from professional people who calim to be doing something for people who are intimidated!
Every poster that as used derogitary comments about any poster here regardless of their views is doing exactly what thay complain MOL does...........in person without hiding behind an internet forum!
Regards,
DFC
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Do ATCOs get free food supplied?........if not then they must have the same argument as Ryanair Pilots have for free food?...........Don't ATCOs have unions?........
No one likes the idea of an airline saying to a pilot that they must either pay for a type training or expect redundancy.......however pilots have brought it on themselves - how many pilots are only too willing to run off and pay for an initial type rating or even two just so as to be at the front of the job que..............................getting a professional pilot job has for many years now been more a case of how much money is in your pocket than how good you are (and that shows in the RH seat ;(.............all Ryanair do is use the willingness of pilots to walkover each other for a few more £ for it's own benefit.
If pilots are stressed prior to flight the IAA/CAA requires them not to fly........
if they ignore the IAA/CAA requirements then it is the pilot's fault........
Sure you can have your field day in court but it would take a brave man to take on the the airlines smear machine and all it entails before the judgement is made. Hard to put a family through that. No, its not right but it's reality and cowardice it certainly ain't.
provided they have the backbone to actually make that safety decision.
ryanair cannot attract pilots,the terms and conditions are so bad and there is now a discernible pilot shortage.
BEagle is typical of people who have no interest in the situation other than to use it to try and put untrue safety fears in the public mind.
Every poster that as used derogitary comments about any poster here regardless of their views is doing exactly what thay complain MOL does...........in person without hiding behind an internet forum!
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DFC, relying only on the opening part of your reply here are my conclusions:
1. You have an interesting notion of wha comprises independence.
2. You have decided that the memo does not merit serious attention or belief. You avoid my challenge to comment on the memo based on quoting the ironic "but hey its only a rumour right? Too clever by half. Too obvious by half too.
3. But you are prepared to rely on a post on the same site taken from a newspaper in order to attack a BALPA official.
4. You have again, like all Ryanair apologists, used the opportunity to avoid difficult questions and to open a string of attacks on other fronts so as to divert attention from your failure.
Reality: you do not want to comment on the memo and you are not independent.
P.S. Do you REALLY believe that it is not a real Ryanair memo?
So far those who won't/ can't answer simple questions in case that might embarrass Ryanair: Joyce Tick, Leo the Reticent, DFC.
1. You have an interesting notion of wha comprises independence.
2. You have decided that the memo does not merit serious attention or belief. You avoid my challenge to comment on the memo based on quoting the ironic "but hey its only a rumour right? Too clever by half. Too obvious by half too.
3. But you are prepared to rely on a post on the same site taken from a newspaper in order to attack a BALPA official.
4. You have again, like all Ryanair apologists, used the opportunity to avoid difficult questions and to open a string of attacks on other fronts so as to divert attention from your failure.
Reality: you do not want to comment on the memo and you are not independent.
P.S. Do you REALLY believe that it is not a real Ryanair memo?
So far those who won't/ can't answer simple questions in case that might embarrass Ryanair: Joyce Tick, Leo the Reticent, DFC.
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Wow, this thread is the MOST magic for some time! I haven't seen so much piss and wind for a while. Not having commented here for some time let me add just a farthing's worth (anybody else remember a farthing?).
DFC - the Queen does, in effect, already have state housing aka Buckingham Palace, what's more she certainly receives State Benefit aka the Royal List - somewhat grander than most, so you've started the right rumour - what a man!
More importantly from the cosiness on my distant perspective, reading what bollocks appears to be levied upon you; I say,'Come on Ryanair pilots rise against all the crap you are fed (or not fed!), the invective of Hairy Camel means nothing if you stand together, better out of service than servitude!!'
And the rest of you should help them - otherwise YOUR airline will be next!!
DFC - the Queen does, in effect, already have state housing aka Buckingham Palace, what's more she certainly receives State Benefit aka the Royal List - somewhat grander than most, so you've started the right rumour - what a man!
More importantly from the cosiness on my distant perspective, reading what bollocks appears to be levied upon you; I say,'Come on Ryanair pilots rise against all the crap you are fed (or not fed!), the invective of Hairy Camel means nothing if you stand together, better out of service than servitude!!'
And the rest of you should help them - otherwise YOUR airline will be next!!
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atse,
3. But you are prepared to rely on a post on the same site taken from a newspaper in order to attack a BALPA official.
What you seem to miss is that I can go an read the newspaper to confirm the accuracy of that post first...........evidence........... I am unable to confirm the existance or not of said memo.
I have not attacked the official, I merely pointe out some inaccuracies that I believe exist in his statement.
P.S. Do you REALLY believe that it is not a real Ryanair memo?
What I believe is up to me. Without evidence it is entirely reasonable to be minded that either the memo does not exist or that the quotation was embelished or perhaps that it is all true.......only the people who have access to said memo know.
---
smartarse,
Go on, you'll be telling me next that several top UK companies have their customer service centres in places like India where people are paid a small fraction of European wages, have no real worker rights and have no protection under EU law!
Regards,
DFC
3. But you are prepared to rely on a post on the same site taken from a newspaper in order to attack a BALPA official.
What you seem to miss is that I can go an read the newspaper to confirm the accuracy of that post first...........evidence........... I am unable to confirm the existance or not of said memo.
I have not attacked the official, I merely pointe out some inaccuracies that I believe exist in his statement.
P.S. Do you REALLY believe that it is not a real Ryanair memo?
What I believe is up to me. Without evidence it is entirely reasonable to be minded that either the memo does not exist or that the quotation was embelished or perhaps that it is all true.......only the people who have access to said memo know.
---
smartarse,
Go on, you'll be telling me next that several top UK companies have their customer service centres in places like India where people are paid a small fraction of European wages, have no real worker rights and have no protection under EU law!
Regards,
DFC
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DFC
Evidently. Your independence allows you to chose what you believe errr.. selectively but independently. This is a bit like being trapped like Alice "in Wonderland" - or should it be in "Ryanair Wonderland"? I think your pedigree is reasonably clear at this stage.
Joyce Tick
The original question was posed by somebody to Leo Hairy Camel after he said the following about some so-called Ryanair “trouble-makers”:
This was followed by chorus of those who were rather keen that good ole Leo the Hairy might clarify what those “perfectly reasonable terms and conditions” actually were. All followed by silence on the part of Leo the Not Available. I just joined in with those who await an answer. It is a good question. Do you know the answer?
(The reason I included you in my “can’t-won’t” list was that you replied directly to a post of mine above saying “atse ‘No false claims that don't 'stand up'’...” and then failed to address the question that I was talking about… geddit?).
What I believe is up to me.
Joyce Tick
The original question was posed by somebody to Leo Hairy Camel after he said the following about some so-called Ryanair “trouble-makers”:
Merely a few Dublin based -200 pilots who threw their collective rattle from the cot when they decided the perfectly reasonable terms and conditions of their transfer to the -800 fleet were not to their liking.
(The reason I included you in my “can’t-won’t” list was that you replied directly to a post of mine above saying “atse ‘No false claims that don't 'stand up'’...” and then failed to address the question that I was talking about… geddit?).
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While I'm new to this forum, having read such a long thread, it seems things are no different in Ireland than in the US.
As for DFC, the rest of you just need to ignore him. He's obviously an apologist and, in fact, probably works in management FOR Ryan.
DFC, you know how I know you're in management? Because, only mgt. would condemn pilots (who are happy to go the extra mile and throw bags to help their company prosper in the early goings) for expecting to share in the prosperity of their company. Mgt never seems to understand that making sacrifices for one's company is done willingly in the beginning, but once the company is cruising, why shouldn't an employee expect more, especially in light of their earlier sacrifices? God knows, Executives expect to be properly compensated, dont' they?
I also love your comment: "If pilots are stressed prior to flight the IAA/CAA requires them not to fly........if they ignore the IAA/CAA requirements then it is the pilot's fault"
Yeah, I'm sure every pilot that's had a heart attack in the cockpit knew beforehand that he was going to have it. More mgt crap along the lines that the pilot "got what he deserved."
And DFC: "What I believe is up to me"?
Puhleeze. You're not in grade school anymore....surely you can do better than that.
Lastly, DFC, why can't you understand why a pilot wants to be fed while on duty? It's easy. Unless, of course, you've never flown scheduled-service or, you've been in mgt so long and the lobotomy was so well done, that you've forgotten what the job entails.
Mo
As for DFC, the rest of you just need to ignore him. He's obviously an apologist and, in fact, probably works in management FOR Ryan.
DFC, you know how I know you're in management? Because, only mgt. would condemn pilots (who are happy to go the extra mile and throw bags to help their company prosper in the early goings) for expecting to share in the prosperity of their company. Mgt never seems to understand that making sacrifices for one's company is done willingly in the beginning, but once the company is cruising, why shouldn't an employee expect more, especially in light of their earlier sacrifices? God knows, Executives expect to be properly compensated, dont' they?
I also love your comment: "If pilots are stressed prior to flight the IAA/CAA requires them not to fly........if they ignore the IAA/CAA requirements then it is the pilot's fault"
Yeah, I'm sure every pilot that's had a heart attack in the cockpit knew beforehand that he was going to have it. More mgt crap along the lines that the pilot "got what he deserved."
And DFC: "What I believe is up to me"?
Puhleeze. You're not in grade school anymore....surely you can do better than that.
Lastly, DFC, why can't you understand why a pilot wants to be fed while on duty? It's easy. Unless, of course, you've never flown scheduled-service or, you've been in mgt so long and the lobotomy was so well done, that you've forgotten what the job entails.
Mo