Challenge-can anyone provide a worse roster?
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Join Date: Dec 2001
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Challenge-can anyone provide a worse roster?
Interested to see if this is the worst roster over a 31 period in the world. Do your best!!
PS this is domestic flying in Asia.
4 day trip (every day early start, average 5hrs flight time/day)
1 day off
4 day trip (early as above)
1 day off
4 day trip (early " )
1 day off
4 day trip (early " )
2 days off (harassed 4 times by fltops to try to get me to fly on days off)
5 day trip (early " )
1 day off
4 day trip (late " , yehah)
Few days off at the end of all that.
PS this is domestic flying in Asia.
4 day trip (every day early start, average 5hrs flight time/day)
1 day off
4 day trip (early as above)
1 day off
4 day trip (early " )
1 day off
4 day trip (early " )
2 days off (harassed 4 times by fltops to try to get me to fly on days off)
5 day trip (early " )
1 day off
4 day trip (late " , yehah)
Few days off at the end of all that.
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Well according to CAP371, you shouldn't be able to do that roster. You have to have at least 2 consecutive days off in 14.
Pretty crappy roster I have to say though. I thought ours were appalling...
Pretty crappy roster I have to say though. I thought ours were appalling...
Join Date: May 2001
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on my 4 night-a-week route, i fly (well...it has been averaging...) 8.5 hours a night, 3 nights a week and get a "short" night of 4.5 hours flying once a week. these are all "late" starts of 8pm local. arrive back home at 8am and it's away from the airport for 12 hours to do it all over again the next night.
flying is conducted in a lear 35 under FAA 135. using the company's flight time estimates for this route, i will have logged 1350 hours at the end of 12 months -- the limit is 1400 in that time frame.
at least you're getting a day off! i used to have 5 or 6 nights on followed by 1 or 2 days off and that was rough. it sounds like your company needs to hire more pilots.
flying is conducted in a lear 35 under FAA 135. using the company's flight time estimates for this route, i will have logged 1350 hours at the end of 12 months -- the limit is 1400 in that time frame.
at least you're getting a day off! i used to have 5 or 6 nights on followed by 1 or 2 days off and that was rough. it sounds like your company needs to hire more pilots.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Almost anyone who has ever been a dispatcher would give their right arms for a roster with so much stability and consistency, let alone so much notice. Most rosters are a bizarre mixture of split days off, constant changes mid-roster from earlies/lates/nights to any combination of the same and all for the privelidge of the minimum wage.
Guess it all depends on your perspective as to what makes a 'bad' roster.
Guess it all depends on your perspective as to what makes a 'bad' roster.
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Sure,
3 day-trips
4 days off
repeat next week
Only bragging 'cause I know it won't last...!
Have to admit, that of the original poster WAS about the worst I have ever seen, AND I HAVE WORKED FOR GREAT LAKES!
3 day-trips
4 days off
repeat next week
Only bragging 'cause I know it won't last...!
Have to admit, that of the original poster WAS about the worst I have ever seen, AND I HAVE WORKED FOR GREAT LAKES!
Join Date: Aug 2000
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On the A330 fleet in MAS you can get worse roster than that.And this is the US5 million dollar software program ICMS(inteligent crew management system).
And now it's fondly known as I C A Mess
And now it's fondly known as I C A Mess
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
m_d, what was your report time, and finish time on the 4 day patterns?
Not everyone flies to CAP371 Regs, Mobster l.
In this country (Japan), the rest requirements are predicated on required rest AFTER duty - also deadheading is not counted as duty time...they must think we do it for fun
, so theoretically it's possible to deadhead pre/post flight for indeterminate, unregulated periods. 
Not everyone flies to CAP371 Regs, Mobster l.
In this country (Japan), the rest requirements are predicated on required rest AFTER duty - also deadheading is not counted as duty time...they must think we do it for fun
, so theoretically it's possible to deadhead pre/post flight for indeterminate, unregulated periods.
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Interested to see if this is the worst roster over a 31 period in the world.
At least you can relax and watch it do it by itself through out the period between gear up and gear down!
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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For those of you waffling on about your rosters just pack it all in and come over here to the UK where you have halfway decent legislation to protect you from dangerous rostering practices. Loads of jobs going here at the moment with the majors hiring and the inevitable capillary soak-up from the ranks of the 'easily manipulated' wannabes.
Here's a link to the CAA publication of our flight time limitation rules(CAP371). Just download it (it's free), digest it and start putting pressure on your countries aviation regulators to put something similar in place. I know some of you will complain about corrupt officials and the 'little man' syndrome but instead of whingeing about it on here why don't you actually do something about it. If you're not in a union then don't even bother wasting your time. Without the backing of a large group of you, you might as well be peeing in the wind.
Oh, and by the way, our European politicos have already decided to ignore scientific research into aviation related fatigue and opted for their 'pig trough suppliers' suggestions to amending EU wide FTL's. Never forget that the airlines have their own lobby's and they are far better organised than the unions. Ever wonder how many brown envelopes get passed around Brussels?
Here's a link to the CAA publication of our flight time limitation rules(CAP371). Just download it (it's free), digest it and start putting pressure on your countries aviation regulators to put something similar in place. I know some of you will complain about corrupt officials and the 'little man' syndrome but instead of whingeing about it on here why don't you actually do something about it. If you're not in a union then don't even bother wasting your time. Without the backing of a large group of you, you might as well be peeing in the wind.
Oh, and by the way, our European politicos have already decided to ignore scientific research into aviation related fatigue and opted for their 'pig trough suppliers' suggestions to amending EU wide FTL's. Never forget that the airlines have their own lobby's and they are far better organised than the unions. Ever wonder how many brown envelopes get passed around Brussels?
Join Date: Oct 2002
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bear in mind that whenever you think that you have the worst conditions imaginable out there in civvy world there are still fools like myself flying for the military. we essentially do the same flying as you guys but on a lot less money. i dream of the time when i know exactly what my schedule will be for the upcoming month, and to know that i would have a whole day off and not just 11 1/2 hrs off between 16 hr sectors.
Join Date: Sep 2002
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I think mine might be a tad worse...
Sunday - unemployed
Monday - unemployed
Tuesday - unemployed
Wednesday - unemployed
Thursday - unemployed
Friday - unemployed
and for a change...
Saturday - unemployed
Tell you what mate, do you wanna swap? Since it sounds like you need a break!
Not trying to start an argument, blah blah whatever. Just saying be grateful for what you have.....
Sunday - unemployed
Monday - unemployed
Tuesday - unemployed
Wednesday - unemployed
Thursday - unemployed
Friday - unemployed
and for a change...
Saturday - unemployed
Tell you what mate, do you wanna swap? Since it sounds like you need a break!
Not trying to start an argument, blah blah whatever. Just saying be grateful for what you have.....
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Umm, Asia....well you make your bed &c.
Well we knew what we were getting into when we started.
December. 110 hours plus 18 hours deadheading plus 12 consecutive days off.
So in 19 days, with only one day off during duty period...
london-seoul-bombay-milan-seoul-london-seoul-london-seoul-london...days off at home for Xmas...london-seoul-london.
Felt a bit weary afterwards. But it could have been worse, no USA trips in that schedule.
This is not a whinge, just a comment.
Micro naps are not an apocraphyl tale, they happen, so beware.
Well we knew what we were getting into when we started.
December. 110 hours plus 18 hours deadheading plus 12 consecutive days off.
So in 19 days, with only one day off during duty period...
london-seoul-bombay-milan-seoul-london-seoul-london-seoul-london...days off at home for Xmas...london-seoul-london.
Felt a bit weary afterwards. But it could have been worse, no USA trips in that schedule.
This is not a whinge, just a comment.
Micro naps are not an apocraphyl tale, they happen, so beware.
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Even though this thread is about civilian flying (and my sympathies are truly with you, m_d, that is a very rotten roster)....Juliet brings up a good point about military flying. Monthly rosters? Non-existent, except that you can plan on not being able to plan anything! I'm serious, though -- your "planned" flying roster changes on a daily basis, so there's no telling which days you'll actually be working, or when you'll be off next.
Flying hours and duty period/rest limits? Yes, they exist somewhat, but in times of conflict, some of those can be (and are routinely) waived.
I hope you'll forgive my side-track here, but memories such as these help me to appreciate my current situation, no matter how annoyed I get with my roster. When I feel the temptation to complain, I look back on how things once were.
In a not-so-long-ago conflict, during a pilot/crew shortage in our deployed location, we worked the following:
-- A 20-hour workday (which included a 15-16 hour flight, sometimes extended to 17 hours)
-- 16 hours off
-- start the 20-hour duty day/15-16 hour flight again.
The 16 hours off meant that you were alternating between an early morning flight to an evening flight each time. We hung in there, but I can honestly say that after several consectutive flights like this, I had never been so completely tired in my life.
Additional crews eventually arrived and we were given a reprieve. It must have helped me to know that I could finally relax, because I went back to my quarters and slept for 15 hours straight.
I'm not complaining about the military -- I'm very glad to have served, and I wouldn't trade the flying/experiences for anything. But memories, such as the above, help to keep my airline roster, lifestyle, etc. in perspective
Edited to add my best wishes to m_d for a better situation in the future. Perhaps there's little you can do, but it might be worth taking cargo boy's suggestion regarding putting pressure on your countries' officials. Maybe if enough of you work together on it?? Or is that just wishful thinking in your situation?
I'm serious, though -- your "planned" flying roster changes on a daily basis, so there's no telling which days you'll actually be working, or when you'll be off next. Flying hours and duty period/rest limits? Yes, they exist somewhat, but in times of conflict, some of those can be (and are routinely) waived.
I hope you'll forgive my side-track here, but memories such as these help me to appreciate my current situation, no matter how annoyed I get with my roster. When I feel the temptation to complain, I look back on how things once were.
In a not-so-long-ago conflict, during a pilot/crew shortage in our deployed location, we worked the following:
-- A 20-hour workday (which included a 15-16 hour flight, sometimes extended to 17 hours)
-- 16 hours off
-- start the 20-hour duty day/15-16 hour flight again.
The 16 hours off meant that you were alternating between an early morning flight to an evening flight each time. We hung in there, but I can honestly say that after several consectutive flights like this, I had never been so completely tired in my life.
Additional crews eventually arrived and we were given a reprieve. It must have helped me to know that I could finally relax, because I went back to my quarters and slept for 15 hours straight.
I'm not complaining about the military -- I'm very glad to have served, and I wouldn't trade the flying/experiences for anything. But memories, such as the above, help to keep my airline roster, lifestyle, etc. in perspective
Edited to add my best wishes to m_d for a better situation in the future. Perhaps there's little you can do, but it might be worth taking cargo boy's suggestion regarding putting pressure on your countries' officials. Maybe if enough of you work together on it?? Or is that just wishful thinking in your situation?
Last edited by Crótalo; 13th Feb 2005 at 17:49.
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Roster
Well Murdoch-Disliker, I reckon your roster totalled 31 days with 4 days off, so the reference to a 'few days off' after is pretty meaningless when it comes to the month you just flew.
Last time I saw a roster like that was with National (yellow DC10's where the FEO's used to deadhead MIA/LHR then transit operate back).
So I have to ask you, why do you do it. Do you think it is unsafe ? Which government sanctions this as it would probably fail FAA, CAA, JAROPS, JAA etc. Let us know so we can avoid the airline. Ta
Last time I saw a roster like that was with National (yellow DC10's where the FEO's used to deadhead MIA/LHR then transit operate back).
So I have to ask you, why do you do it. Do you think it is unsafe ? Which government sanctions this as it would probably fail FAA, CAA, JAROPS, JAA etc. Let us know so we can avoid the airline. Ta
Early morning Spain
Early morning Spain
Early mor......car crash
Early morning wake up in hopsital
6 months off, waiting for surgery
Pair of 4.5 inck metal K-wires in wrist, short and feeble muscles, no feeling in hand and deep scar across palm. No more Class1 medical cert.
Early retirement at 36 years old.
Anyone want to buy a pair of used Raybans and a set of 757 manuals? I need the money
Early morning Spain
Early mor......car crash
Early morning wake up in hopsital
6 months off, waiting for surgery
Pair of 4.5 inck metal K-wires in wrist, short and feeble muscles, no feeling in hand and deep scar across palm. No more Class1 medical cert.
Early retirement at 36 years old.
Anyone want to buy a pair of used Raybans and a set of 757 manuals? I need the money
We had a situation where I work where they had a roster of 5 starts before sunrise, consisting of 2 pre-0600 reports (early starts) followed by an 0605(not a legal early, just a morning start) followed by a pair of earlies.
(forgive me for errors of legal/tech jargon, I've been off for a while!)
Technically legal due to it not being 3 earlies in a row. Did they seriously think that the extra 5 minutes lie-in would make it easy to do another 2 earlies.
Plan didn't last for very long. Thankfully the local Pilot Manager saw the roster and got it sorted.
Good company to work for....just that the roster planning was starting to look at legal maximums more as "targets"!
(forgive me for errors of legal/tech jargon, I've been off for a while!)
Technically legal due to it not being 3 earlies in a row. Did they seriously think that the extra 5 minutes lie-in would make it easy to do another 2 earlies.
Plan didn't last for very long. Thankfully the local Pilot Manager saw the roster and got it sorted.
Good company to work for....just that the roster planning was starting to look at legal maximums more as "targets"!