747 off rwy in DUS
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>So can anybody explain why freight APPEARS to be more of a risk than scheduled airline type flying ?
Well, naturally you'd take more care with a plane load of passengers than merely boxes of tomatoes, wouldn't you?
Well, naturally you'd take more care with a plane load of passengers than merely boxes of tomatoes, wouldn't you?
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Why would a cargo pilot be more suicidal than a "people" pilot?
When I fly, it makes no difference to me who or what is sitting behind me...and I still don't plan on crashing anytime soon.
When I fly, it makes no difference to me who or what is sitting behind me...and I still don't plan on crashing anytime soon.
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Hull Loss
Well although two dots has been flamed comprehensively..surely he has a point...although perhaps badly made. My perception would be that cargo aircraft do crash with more frequency than passenger aircraft...if only from reading PPrune! Has anyone got the stats for hull loss against distance flown or indeed take offs and landing for pax vs cargo? Since whilst there are lies damn lies and statistics this would give us some idea whether this perception is correct...
Whilst clearly it is unlikely that cargo pilots are any more or less careful than there pax flying colleagues...there are a number of other factors that I can think of that might cause the exercise to be more risky
(a) Older aircraft (a lot of cargo aircraft are ex pax that have reached the end of their commercial life from a pax airline point of view)
(b) Less wealthy operators
(c) Nature of the cargo flown, dangerous goods etc
(d) Unsocial working hours
(e) Operate into out of different potentially less well maintained airports
None of the above will apply to ALL cargo operators but I am sure that you would find that some or all of them do to others.
Whilst clearly it is unlikely that cargo pilots are any more or less careful than there pax flying colleagues...there are a number of other factors that I can think of that might cause the exercise to be more risky
(a) Older aircraft (a lot of cargo aircraft are ex pax that have reached the end of their commercial life from a pax airline point of view)
(b) Less wealthy operators
(c) Nature of the cargo flown, dangerous goods etc
(d) Unsocial working hours
(e) Operate into out of different potentially less well maintained airports
None of the above will apply to ALL cargo operators but I am sure that you would find that some or all of them do to others.
To add to View From The Ground's list of possibly plausible reasons:
1. The economic feedback from the risk of losing hundreds of passengers (at greater than US $1 million per person likely liability regardless of actual fault) is higher than that for cargo flights of the same aircraft type. Despite all "safety first" claims, money talks.
2. Lower political pressure on the regulatory authorities regarding risks to a small crew vs. risks to hundreds of voters could mean a lighter supervisory hand in some aspects?
1. The economic feedback from the risk of losing hundreds of passengers (at greater than US $1 million per person likely liability regardless of actual fault) is higher than that for cargo flights of the same aircraft type. Despite all "safety first" claims, money talks.
2. Lower political pressure on the regulatory authorities regarding risks to a small crew vs. risks to hundreds of voters could mean a lighter supervisory hand in some aspects?
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To PW2040's question:
First of all sorry for not having checked the news forum for quite a while (been strolling around in Jet Blast recently).
Coming from Düsseldorf and being kinda at home on its observation deck, of course I followed the regional news. Unfortunately I don't have a written source on hand right now and have to rely on what I remember from TV. Afaik the stand about one and half a week ago was that the jet is going to be scrapped. It has never belonged to EDDL as far as I know, but until short time ago to Atlas Air, which has paid 900 Dollars (or Euros I dunno) a day for the parking position.
Why people care about it... not many 747 land at Düsseldorf, for the first one. Secondly... at German airports the practice of having wrecked / not used aircrafts on parking positions is unlike to the US not at all common. The 747 has become one of the silent attractions of the airport, and I remember my autumn holidays when I was home that we shot on an airport visit some pics of it aswell. Everybody knew it would not stand there forever. The attention rate was probably because of that higher than normal and because there are not many 747 at Dus at all. This one is at its current position visible from almost everywhere. Even and especially from the Sky Train. And the incident of course made headlines, which were being kept up by the local and regional (state North-Rhine-Westfalia) media. Not many jets overrun runways in Germany and remain at our airports, you know. This case is quite unique so far.
Additionally the airport has been struggling to achieve some kind of movement in this matter, although they are not unhappy about the money either. This has been kept up by the local news too.
Atlas Air has paid the money always the day it was due, but a few days ago the media (as far as I recall) told the jet wreckage has been sold to a company (name I forgot), which is specialised on wrecking down old jets. It won't take off anymore. The engines have indeed been taken already and so will the rest of the parts, which can still be used. You guys probably know the regulations concerning the further use of those spare parts better than I do. It was mentioned that the time is pressing.
As far as I know the 747 won't be leaving again and also won't remain as public attention. No one apart from the airport spokesman commented on this matter.
Maybe a bit of clarification in this matter and again my apologies for not having seen this earlier.
First of all sorry for not having checked the news forum for quite a while (been strolling around in Jet Blast recently).
Coming from Düsseldorf and being kinda at home on its observation deck, of course I followed the regional news. Unfortunately I don't have a written source on hand right now and have to rely on what I remember from TV. Afaik the stand about one and half a week ago was that the jet is going to be scrapped. It has never belonged to EDDL as far as I know, but until short time ago to Atlas Air, which has paid 900 Dollars (or Euros I dunno) a day for the parking position.
Why people care about it... not many 747 land at Düsseldorf, for the first one. Secondly... at German airports the practice of having wrecked / not used aircrafts on parking positions is unlike to the US not at all common. The 747 has become one of the silent attractions of the airport, and I remember my autumn holidays when I was home that we shot on an airport visit some pics of it aswell. Everybody knew it would not stand there forever. The attention rate was probably because of that higher than normal and because there are not many 747 at Dus at all. This one is at its current position visible from almost everywhere. Even and especially from the Sky Train. And the incident of course made headlines, which were being kept up by the local and regional (state North-Rhine-Westfalia) media. Not many jets overrun runways in Germany and remain at our airports, you know. This case is quite unique so far.
Additionally the airport has been struggling to achieve some kind of movement in this matter, although they are not unhappy about the money either. This has been kept up by the local news too.
Atlas Air has paid the money always the day it was due, but a few days ago the media (as far as I recall) told the jet wreckage has been sold to a company (name I forgot), which is specialised on wrecking down old jets. It won't take off anymore. The engines have indeed been taken already and so will the rest of the parts, which can still be used. You guys probably know the regulations concerning the further use of those spare parts better than I do. It was mentioned that the time is pressing.
As far as I know the 747 won't be leaving again and also won't remain as public attention. No one apart from the airport spokesman commented on this matter.
Maybe a bit of clarification in this matter and again my apologies for not having seen this earlier.
Last edited by Avrel; 13th Nov 2005 at 23:55.
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74World wrote:
"For info the 747 in DUS does not belong to Atlas anymore, but to the German Airport authority, since they gave the crew the WRONG breaking action on that day.......I was told that it will be use for fire training or something like that....."
Sorry Buddy but where did you get that info from?
The official Investigation-Report (Intermediate-Edition) states that the Crew was warned minutes before Landing that the Brake-Action decreased compared to the last Test (Which was about One hour before the Accident) and that also the visibility was getting worse (Below 1KM).
It's hard to say it this way in a pilots-forum, but I have to:
This was a pilots-error!
The guys landed slightly below MLW on a RWY in bad Weather-Condition, the touchdown was too late (For this WX) and they overran the RWY - Full Stop!
There is no reason why an airport-authority would/should pay any kind of compensation!
Regars
"For info the 747 in DUS does not belong to Atlas anymore, but to the German Airport authority, since they gave the crew the WRONG breaking action on that day.......I was told that it will be use for fire training or something like that....."
Sorry Buddy but where did you get that info from?
The official Investigation-Report (Intermediate-Edition) states that the Crew was warned minutes before Landing that the Brake-Action decreased compared to the last Test (Which was about One hour before the Accident) and that also the visibility was getting worse (Below 1KM).
It's hard to say it this way in a pilots-forum, but I have to:
This was a pilots-error!
The guys landed slightly below MLW on a RWY in bad Weather-Condition, the touchdown was too late (For this WX) and they overran the RWY - Full Stop!
There is no reason why an airport-authority would/should pay any kind of compensation!
Regars
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Another issue that came up in my mind is why no airport in Germany states the runway condition on the ATIS as e.g. the UK, Belgium,...
I never got the info "runway is wet" even if we could already speak about standing water.
DUS 23L is not the longest runway around for landing.
So maybe the crew is not to blame.
I never got the info "runway is wet" even if we could already speak about standing water.
DUS 23L is not the longest runway around for landing.
So maybe the crew is not to blame.
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"Braking action medium" for the whole runway length was reported to the crew 2 minutes before landing. Also reported was RVR around 1000m in heavy snow showers. Wind on landing clearance 330 deg 11knots.
...
calculated LW 283.300kg
MLW 285.762 kg
...
calculated LW 283.300kg
MLW 285.762 kg
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A few words about Düsseldorf's runway situation:
I definitely agree that Düsseldorf has not "the longest" runway. Combined with poor conditions (as they often exist), it can definitely become a problem for a large jet if the crew reacts a few moments too late or if the warning is not coming in time (I am not the one to judge this as I am not a professional pilot).
Still this is amongst the reasons why Düsseldorf is not approached by more large jets. The Atlas Air 747 is quite unique. I haven't ever seen any other 747 apart from what I suppose to be this particular flight in all the time. In the past of course, it was regularly approached. My parents flew with a Condor 747 in the late 70s/80s. From Dus. These days are over.
Regularly the largest jets taking off from Dus are A330s and perhaps sometimes an A340 (cannot remember now). 757 and 767 were operated by American carriers a few years back.
As it looks now, the airport won't even get the chance to prepare for the A380. Frankfurt is not too far away (in your terms) and the runway is simply too short. The passenger numbers would definitely be allright. The airport could take more and larger jets too because of the nearby Ruhrgebiet. It is the third largest airport in Germany concerning passenger numbers. So I suppose the economic side is not the problem.
These credits go rather to the residents in the surrounding town boroughs and the scattered villages. Afaik they are very good at it. The near airport has ensured that the squaremetre prices were not that high, so many people bought the land some years ago and built their little tiny houses on it (especially in those villages). After they moved in... what a surprise... they realized actually jets are landing there, which ensures a certain level of noise. And of course no one knew in advance of this...
So now we got a ****load of citizen organisations protesting against whatever plan the airport takes to increase the runway length. Of course the forest of Kalkum has to be an area of nature which has to be saved aswell. Would have to be cut down, which poses another problem.
In the end Düsseldorf might lose its importance and probably a lot of jobs with it, if nothing is achieved concerning the runway length. If I remember correctly this thing is still keeping a few courts busy. Involved are the state North-Rhine-Westfalia, the town, the airport, the citizens (which are the main problem) and of course the activists who are so keen on preserving nature.
So much about it if you want to swear (again?) when approaching the "short" runway in bad weather.
Oh and perhaps shortly offtopic a hint after reading el cabellero rojo's post indicating he has approached Dus. Please do not comment on it (or if you wish to, do it via PN).
To those of you who approach Düsseldorf: Watch out when coming in via Echo when it is glider season (end of March till end of October) and VFR conditions. Depending on the day your reaction time might be a few seconds better than the glider pilot's despite the aircraft size. Drinking and sleeping regulations are definitely taken lax and they like to take it up to the given limit (altitude). As far as I heard there has been (at least) one possible near miss in the past with an airline pilot complaining officially later.
I definitely agree that Düsseldorf has not "the longest" runway. Combined with poor conditions (as they often exist), it can definitely become a problem for a large jet if the crew reacts a few moments too late or if the warning is not coming in time (I am not the one to judge this as I am not a professional pilot).
Still this is amongst the reasons why Düsseldorf is not approached by more large jets. The Atlas Air 747 is quite unique. I haven't ever seen any other 747 apart from what I suppose to be this particular flight in all the time. In the past of course, it was regularly approached. My parents flew with a Condor 747 in the late 70s/80s. From Dus. These days are over.
Regularly the largest jets taking off from Dus are A330s and perhaps sometimes an A340 (cannot remember now). 757 and 767 were operated by American carriers a few years back.
As it looks now, the airport won't even get the chance to prepare for the A380. Frankfurt is not too far away (in your terms) and the runway is simply too short. The passenger numbers would definitely be allright. The airport could take more and larger jets too because of the nearby Ruhrgebiet. It is the third largest airport in Germany concerning passenger numbers. So I suppose the economic side is not the problem.
These credits go rather to the residents in the surrounding town boroughs and the scattered villages. Afaik they are very good at it. The near airport has ensured that the squaremetre prices were not that high, so many people bought the land some years ago and built their little tiny houses on it (especially in those villages). After they moved in... what a surprise... they realized actually jets are landing there, which ensures a certain level of noise. And of course no one knew in advance of this...
So now we got a ****load of citizen organisations protesting against whatever plan the airport takes to increase the runway length. Of course the forest of Kalkum has to be an area of nature which has to be saved aswell. Would have to be cut down, which poses another problem.
In the end Düsseldorf might lose its importance and probably a lot of jobs with it, if nothing is achieved concerning the runway length. If I remember correctly this thing is still keeping a few courts busy. Involved are the state North-Rhine-Westfalia, the town, the airport, the citizens (which are the main problem) and of course the activists who are so keen on preserving nature.
So much about it if you want to swear (again?) when approaching the "short" runway in bad weather.
Oh and perhaps shortly offtopic a hint after reading el cabellero rojo's post indicating he has approached Dus. Please do not comment on it (or if you wish to, do it via PN).
To those of you who approach Düsseldorf: Watch out when coming in via Echo when it is glider season (end of March till end of October) and VFR conditions. Depending on the day your reaction time might be a few seconds better than the glider pilot's despite the aircraft size. Drinking and sleeping regulations are definitely taken lax and they like to take it up to the given limit (altitude). As far as I heard there has been (at least) one possible near miss in the past with an airline pilot complaining officially later.
Last edited by Avrel; 14th Nov 2005 at 20:54.
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The 747 is def. being scraped.
She was used for emergency training some time in june/july
impressiv pictures with smoke, cases and people(dolls) lying about.
Heard from inside atlas that the information about the breaking aktion was wrong.
Do not know the outcome.
Anybody got the report?
quote
These credits go rather to the residents in the surrounding town boroughs and the scattered villages. Afaik they are very good at it. The near airport has ensured that the squaremetre prices were not that high, so many people bought the land some years ago and built their little tiny houses on it (especially in those villages). After they moved in... what a surprise... they realized actually jets are landing there, which ensures a certain level of noise. And of course no one knew in advance of this...
happens every where...
lets fly to spain for the summerholiday...but do not fly over my house...etc etc
She was used for emergency training some time in june/july
impressiv pictures with smoke, cases and people(dolls) lying about.
Heard from inside atlas that the information about the breaking aktion was wrong.
Do not know the outcome.
Anybody got the report?
quote
These credits go rather to the residents in the surrounding town boroughs and the scattered villages. Afaik they are very good at it. The near airport has ensured that the squaremetre prices were not that high, so many people bought the land some years ago and built their little tiny houses on it (especially in those villages). After they moved in... what a surprise... they realized actually jets are landing there, which ensures a certain level of noise. And of course no one knew in advance of this...
happens every where...lets fly to spain for the summerholiday...but do not fly over my house...etc etc
