BA losing money ? how can that be ?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: U.K.
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA losing money ? how can that be ?
Perhaps somebody from BA can walk me thru this one. A LGW crew are operating a single sector to Nassau / 5 day trip with a report of 07:55 at Heathrow on sunday. Quite a reasonable report time methinks. So........the whole crew,report at 14:00 on FRIDAY ! YES FRIDAY, and are then coached to Heathrow to languish in a hotel until Sunday morning on full U.K. allowances, until report time, not to mention hotel bill. No wonder they are losing money hand over fist !!. .Anybody else have any similar cases of excess to report in the cosseted world of BA ??
Guest
Posts: n/a
I don't know about cosseted if they did that to me I'd be spitting feathers. I'd sooner spend two more days at home than sat in a hotel at Heathrow, even if I was being paid.
Edited 4 spelling...
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: mainfrog2 ]</p>
Edited 4 spelling...
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: mainfrog2 ]</p>
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yawn...
Usual Sat. morning stuff.
Reason is NAS is operated by a 767 which has only recently been moved to LHR for longhaul. The only people being positioned up the night before are some of the cabin crew as there is a lack of 76 rated crew at LHR post 11/9 in the rush to move things.
LGW crew cannot do the service on the day from their base due to the very tight FTL and the dreaded M25. They should be going out the following day not 48 hours later, that never happens.
Flight crew are LHR based so direct report for them. This whole operation is the result of BA moving quickly to try and stop losing money, and not a cause of it.
Still losing it though!!! oh well....
Usual Sat. morning stuff.
Reason is NAS is operated by a 767 which has only recently been moved to LHR for longhaul. The only people being positioned up the night before are some of the cabin crew as there is a lack of 76 rated crew at LHR post 11/9 in the rush to move things.
LGW crew cannot do the service on the day from their base due to the very tight FTL and the dreaded M25. They should be going out the following day not 48 hours later, that never happens.
Flight crew are LHR based so direct report for them. This whole operation is the result of BA moving quickly to try and stop losing money, and not a cause of it.
Still losing it though!!! oh well....
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the basket.
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And I'm not suprised the money's still being lost whatever the "ah but the real reason is..." tosh. Basically your crews are over-paid and cost too much. I mean your allowances are tantamount to a licence to print money. Also there's an incredible admin overhead.
The amount of money thrown at the above compare very poorly to the absolute penny pinching going on elsewhere in the BA Group, such as BA Citiexpress.
Must be awful to be on a mainline salary. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
The amount of money thrown at the above compare very poorly to the absolute penny pinching going on elsewhere in the BA Group, such as BA Citiexpress.
Must be awful to be on a mainline salary. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, but then this is the same company whose pilots fly to Cyprus. Then go to a hotel to rest for a day or two before they can operate the return flight. I think all the charter companies do "out and back" flights to Cyprus, even at night. Guess this is why the holiday companies are making more than BA right now.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: SE UK
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Climbs Like a Dog - Flies the ATP, works for BA CitiExpress and is jealous.. .Does he... . .a) Ensure these alowances are never paid to him when he joins the BA Master Seniority list when BALPA have finalised a SCOPE agreement in a years time OR. .b) Keep his mouth shut and accept that some employees are paid more than him whilst flying a BA aircraft?
You are essentially paying to work then Mr DOG? You want to pay for all your meals down route? Does the tax man take this into account for you?
NOW MR DOG I have advice. Go back to Waterside and stop stirring you irrelevant Pen Pusher or start dreaming that in ten years time you will be flying Wide Bodies on a BA contract.
Do you know that the average UK salary is now £32,000 p.a.? How do you stand with regard to this benchmark? Do you still want to pay for your meals when you are away?
SNIPE. SNIPE.
You are essentially paying to work then Mr DOG? You want to pay for all your meals down route? Does the tax man take this into account for you?
NOW MR DOG I have advice. Go back to Waterside and stop stirring you irrelevant Pen Pusher or start dreaming that in ten years time you will be flying Wide Bodies on a BA contract.
Do you know that the average UK salary is now £32,000 p.a.? How do you stand with regard to this benchmark? Do you still want to pay for your meals when you are away?
SNIPE. SNIPE.
ENTREPPRUNEUR
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The 60s
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote] LGW crew cannot do the service on the day from their base due to the very tight FTL and the dreaded M25. <hr></blockquote>
This is an example of a sentence which is syntactically correct but actually makes no sense. The point of this thread is that BA people can say things like this without realising that everyone else is living in the real world.
This is an example of a sentence which is syntactically correct but actually makes no sense. The point of this thread is that BA people can say things like this without realising that everyone else is living in the real world.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: SE UK
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Grandad Flyer -
How long does it take to turn a round the Cattle Class of a Charter Airline?. .It takes at least 15 minutes longer for BA with it's Business Class and larger 767's.. .How long does it take from talking to delivery, fully ready, to wheels off at LHR?. .30 mins minimum plus weather delays etc. Let's say an extra 15 minutes compared to provincial airports.. .What are the average inbound holding delays at LHR at peak times?. .10-15 minutes. .What is the average delay for stand allocation and cumulative taxi time at LHR?. .10 minutes more than a provincial airport.
So a BA crew, doing a LCA there and back must therefore do an extra hours duty, compared to a charter airline.
Now the BIG difference between BA and a Charter company.... .We, at British Airways, have an agreement that if we are required to exceed the CAA Flight Time Limitations then BA must pay a premium. So BA prefer to 'slip' the crew rather than pay us the 'Duty Overrun Payment'.. .Well done BALPA, you have helped BA pilots not be fatigued at the bequest of those scoundrels we call managers! If they wish to fatigue us, then we will be paid extra to prevent them doing it too often.
Now, now, Mr Grandad Flyer, aren't we in a new era where an individual can be imprisoned for operating a mode of transport whilst extremely tired? Do you want to spend your life worried that when you cause the death of other individuals due to your fatigue having done yet another LCA day trip or would you prefer it the BA way?
There must be a limit to these fatigue issues. I feel, as a BA pilot, BALPA have got the right balance, so DON'T KNOCK IT!
How long does it take to turn a round the Cattle Class of a Charter Airline?. .It takes at least 15 minutes longer for BA with it's Business Class and larger 767's.. .How long does it take from talking to delivery, fully ready, to wheels off at LHR?. .30 mins minimum plus weather delays etc. Let's say an extra 15 minutes compared to provincial airports.. .What are the average inbound holding delays at LHR at peak times?. .10-15 minutes. .What is the average delay for stand allocation and cumulative taxi time at LHR?. .10 minutes more than a provincial airport.
So a BA crew, doing a LCA there and back must therefore do an extra hours duty, compared to a charter airline.
Now the BIG difference between BA and a Charter company.... .We, at British Airways, have an agreement that if we are required to exceed the CAA Flight Time Limitations then BA must pay a premium. So BA prefer to 'slip' the crew rather than pay us the 'Duty Overrun Payment'.. .Well done BALPA, you have helped BA pilots not be fatigued at the bequest of those scoundrels we call managers! If they wish to fatigue us, then we will be paid extra to prevent them doing it too often.
Now, now, Mr Grandad Flyer, aren't we in a new era where an individual can be imprisoned for operating a mode of transport whilst extremely tired? Do you want to spend your life worried that when you cause the death of other individuals due to your fatigue having done yet another LCA day trip or would you prefer it the BA way?
There must be a limit to these fatigue issues. I feel, as a BA pilot, BALPA have got the right balance, so DON'T KNOCK IT!
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: SE UK
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At my defence Sinbad -
You are very wrong. The census of 2001 states the average gross salary is £32000. You quote the 1991 census. You do, however, provide a very sound statistic which I would like to give you.... .In 1991 the starting salary for a BA co pilot was I.R.O. £24,0000. It is now I.R.O. £20,000. So wage inflation has gone up 33% in 10 years whereas the BA starter salary has fallen.
Interesting eh? BA pilots overpaid?
You are very wrong. The census of 2001 states the average gross salary is £32000. You quote the 1991 census. You do, however, provide a very sound statistic which I would like to give you.... .In 1991 the starting salary for a BA co pilot was I.R.O. £24,0000. It is now I.R.O. £20,000. So wage inflation has gone up 33% in 10 years whereas the BA starter salary has fallen.
Interesting eh? BA pilots overpaid?
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Somewhere else
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Land ASAP - does the expression "There's none so blind as them that cannot see" mean anything to you ? No, I thought not !
Your companies business model is seriously flawed, and made all the worse by an "I'm alright Jack" intransigence / inflexibility / stubbornness / narrow-mindedness / unyieldingness / obduracy / etc that permeates right through the enterprise. Indeed many at BA seem to have an Ostrich like mentality to problems, in that they really seemingly believe that if they carry on with their heads buried well into the mud it'll all turn out ok - but it won't !
The BA gravy train is in dire straights and to be honest, imho, it'll take a miracle to turn it around.
Your companies business model is seriously flawed, and made all the worse by an "I'm alright Jack" intransigence / inflexibility / stubbornness / narrow-mindedness / unyieldingness / obduracy / etc that permeates right through the enterprise. Indeed many at BA seem to have an Ostrich like mentality to problems, in that they really seemingly believe that if they carry on with their heads buried well into the mud it'll all turn out ok - but it won't !
The BA gravy train is in dire straights and to be honest, imho, it'll take a miracle to turn it around.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London, England
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So King Chile - do you seriously believe that exceeding CAA FTLs and reducing co-pilots starting pay to below £20,000pa will save BA?
Even if we worked for free the airline would be in trouble. It is not the front end that is damaging BA but the huge amount of hangers on. We employ more people per airframe than any other carrier yet huge amounts of the airline have been contracted out. What other airlines are offering their IT managers starting pay of over £80,000pa with date of birth equals date of joining staff travel? According to BALPA's research, BA pilots are the most productive in the world.
Even if we worked for free the airline would be in trouble. It is not the front end that is damaging BA but the huge amount of hangers on. We employ more people per airframe than any other carrier yet huge amounts of the airline have been contracted out. What other airlines are offering their IT managers starting pay of over £80,000pa with date of birth equals date of joining staff travel? According to BALPA's research, BA pilots are the most productive in the world.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: St Kitts
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can argue from your corners until you're blue in the face - in the meantime the answer is obvious to all but the logically handicapped.
Who is making a profit? Who is ordering scores of aeroplanes? Who is opening new routes? Who is employing more pilots?
The BA way of doing things, (including its pilots' union Spanish practices), speaks very loudly for itself.
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Sir Kitt Braker ]</p>
Who is making a profit? Who is ordering scores of aeroplanes? Who is opening new routes? Who is employing more pilots?
The BA way of doing things, (including its pilots' union Spanish practices), speaks very loudly for itself.
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Sir Kitt Braker ]</p>
Guest
Posts: n/a
Just to let the likes of Climbs like a dog etc. in on something. I work as a purser for BA at LGW. My salary is just short of 13,000 plus allowances which are under £15 a day regardless of how much work I do that day and let me tell you there are plenty of four sector days in there.
So seeing as how that is less than easyjet would be prepared to pay me where would this indicate the money is going. Moving to BA has opened my eyes greatly to the fact that some people there are on very poor money and others give the appearance of handing the company a lot of old rope.
So seeing as how that is less than easyjet would be prepared to pay me where would this indicate the money is going. Moving to BA has opened my eyes greatly to the fact that some people there are on very poor money and others give the appearance of handing the company a lot of old rope.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Somewhere else
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hot WIngs - Ah, but BALPA would say that, wouldn't they - but hey, I tell you what pray enlighten us by telling us the typical annual Duty & Flight Duty hours that BA mainline crews do (Pilots & Cabin crew) and please also include in your answer how much TAKEHOME pay they got for doing it ?
And too my knowledge none of the main UK carriers, charter or scheduled, require one to bust FTL's,
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: King Chile ]</p>
And too my knowledge none of the main UK carriers, charter or scheduled, require one to bust FTL's,
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: King Chile ]</p>
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the basket.
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Land ASAP. .I'm not jealous at all. I do work for BA Citiexpress and I fly the ATP. It's not difficult to deduce from my profile ('tis now tho').
Your comments about joining the BA seniority list and scope are way wide of the mark. What's currently on the table effectively amounts to nothing for us and a chance for BA to ruin our company's bottom line by reserving work on our larger jets to your own pilots.
I don't pay for my meals down route but there has to be happy medium between the pittance we're paid in allowances and the gold mine BA pilots have access to.
What planet are you on?. . [quote]NOW MR DOG I have advice. Go back to Waterside and stop stirring you irrelevant Pen Pusher or start dreaming that in ten years time you will be flying Wide Bodies on a BA contract <hr></blockquote>
I don't work in Waterside. The overheads from there are helping to turn two profitable smaller airlines into one sclerotic big one. Also I don't want to fly wide bodies for anyone, let alone BA. I'm happy enough with what I'm doing which is regional flying and being at home almost every night.
Reference average salary I think you'll find that 24k is about the right figure. I did read recently a figure of 21k. I suppose it's all about what set of stats you use. Anyway why should you worry. You'll be way above that anyway which does tend to prove my point.
One final point. If you were to talk to a lot of pilots in BACE you'll find that most don't wish to join BA. It isn't quite the pinnacle you make out. Most would have been very happy unmerged and profitable. We now have a growing number of management, adding to costs, knocking profitability. Unfortunately the merger, and the shadow of cossetted individuals like yourself, won't go away. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: climbs like a dog ]</p>
Your comments about joining the BA seniority list and scope are way wide of the mark. What's currently on the table effectively amounts to nothing for us and a chance for BA to ruin our company's bottom line by reserving work on our larger jets to your own pilots.
I don't pay for my meals down route but there has to be happy medium between the pittance we're paid in allowances and the gold mine BA pilots have access to.
What planet are you on?. . [quote]NOW MR DOG I have advice. Go back to Waterside and stop stirring you irrelevant Pen Pusher or start dreaming that in ten years time you will be flying Wide Bodies on a BA contract <hr></blockquote>
I don't work in Waterside. The overheads from there are helping to turn two profitable smaller airlines into one sclerotic big one. Also I don't want to fly wide bodies for anyone, let alone BA. I'm happy enough with what I'm doing which is regional flying and being at home almost every night.
Reference average salary I think you'll find that 24k is about the right figure. I did read recently a figure of 21k. I suppose it's all about what set of stats you use. Anyway why should you worry. You'll be way above that anyway which does tend to prove my point.
One final point. If you were to talk to a lot of pilots in BACE you'll find that most don't wish to join BA. It isn't quite the pinnacle you make out. Most would have been very happy unmerged and profitable. We now have a growing number of management, adding to costs, knocking profitability. Unfortunately the merger, and the shadow of cossetted individuals like yourself, won't go away. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: climbs like a dog ]</p>
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London, England
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well King Chile, I'm delighted that you brought that up. I flew 140 hours more and earned £60,740 less last year than my good friend who also flys 744s but for UAL. We both have similar seniority. I flew 100 hours more and earned £47,000 less than friends at CX, again, with similar seniority. Wake up -it is a global industry and once BA's retirement bulge has gone, most of our Captains will be on about £60,000pa.
Do not make the mistake of assuming that we were all born into BA with a silver spoon in our mouth. Many of us have flown for other airlines/ corporations/the military. We simply wish to stop the erosion of our conditions whilst other parts of the airline remain fat and happy.
Do not make the mistake of assuming that we were all born into BA with a silver spoon in our mouth. Many of us have flown for other airlines/ corporations/the military. We simply wish to stop the erosion of our conditions whilst other parts of the airline remain fat and happy.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the basket.
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK Hot Wings. You're not a politician so please answer the question. The 60,000 basic gets topped up with allowances. What would the allowances be?
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: climbs like a dog ]</p>
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: climbs like a dog ]</p>