Japan Air Lines nails pilots for 1 knot taxi speed.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Japan Air Lines nails pilots for 1 knot taxi speed.
In their inhouse Flight Safety magazine the crew of JAL Flight 791 who hit a floodlight during taxi at Shanghai PuDong Internatinal Airport have been cited for "exceeded that of the Boeing suggestion (the Boeing operation standard for the taxi speed at turning is less than 10 knots), while the actual taxi speed at turning of the airplane was 11 knots."
1 knot faster. Are they be serious ?
Another factor cited: "The pilot, who conducted the taxi, didn't observe the obstacle around and the the marks on ground during his taxi to the gate, while the other crew members didn't also have good sense of the situational awareness and didn't alarm the obstacle around the airplane.".
Does anyone now believe that the companies will hang you for even a minor - make that trivial - deviation from the Ops manual whenever they feel like it.
ONE KNOT.....a JOKE isn't it!!
1 knot faster. Are they be serious ?
Another factor cited: "The pilot, who conducted the taxi, didn't observe the obstacle around and the the marks on ground during his taxi to the gate, while the other crew members didn't also have good sense of the situational awareness and didn't alarm the obstacle around the airplane.".
Does anyone now believe that the companies will hang you for even a minor - make that trivial - deviation from the Ops manual whenever they feel like it.
ONE KNOT.....a JOKE isn't it!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
I'd believe it. The Japanese approach to aviation is totally unlike anywhere else in the world. This is a country where the comercial pilot flight test is two full days long, and where even the slightest deviation on a checkride can be cause for failure. Those folks are ready to hang anybody for poor performance.
At the same time, the performance that they are required to demonstrate is very carefully scripted, and Japanese crews can be very reluctant to do anything in training that is not specifically on the test. The result is that while they will know their stuff and know it well FOR THE TEST, they may have very poor skills in such areas as decision making, etc. It is a cultural thing in the end, and for the most part it seems to work for them. They have fewer big accidents than some of their neighbouring countries, and everybody knows the rules. If they want to analyse the fault to this level, then I'm not surprised. And yes, every pilot there would know that 10kt speed limit and would likely call out if it was exceeded.
------------------
Elliot Moose is on the Loose!
At the same time, the performance that they are required to demonstrate is very carefully scripted, and Japanese crews can be very reluctant to do anything in training that is not specifically on the test. The result is that while they will know their stuff and know it well FOR THE TEST, they may have very poor skills in such areas as decision making, etc. It is a cultural thing in the end, and for the most part it seems to work for them. They have fewer big accidents than some of their neighbouring countries, and everybody knows the rules. If they want to analyse the fault to this level, then I'm not surprised. And yes, every pilot there would know that 10kt speed limit and would likely call out if it was exceeded.
------------------
Elliot Moose is on the Loose!
Guest
Posts: n/a
I concur - have you watched a Japanese train driver at work? Meticulous is one word....
Working to the book is great and fabulous and reduces incidents and accidents - until you meet the person/crew that is NOT working to the book!
------------------
A window seat on the sunny side of the aircraft, please!
Working to the book is great and fabulous and reduces incidents and accidents - until you meet the person/crew that is NOT working to the book!
------------------
A window seat on the sunny side of the aircraft, please!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Risking the wrath of pilots everywhere, I'm kind of with the regulators on this one.
I appreciate that this is only a minor transgression and I sympathise to an extent with the pilots.
But I remember being b*llocked for taxiing a Cessna a little faster than walking-pace during one of my first lessons, and for creeping up on a hold-line. My instructor said that an acceptance of small breaches when it doesn't really matter leads to big trouble when it does.
If you begin breaking rules -- however small -- you're gradually eroding the safety margin that's designed to stop you getting dead one day.
(Meekly climbs off soapbox)
[This message has been edited by moschops (edited 08 June 2001).]
I appreciate that this is only a minor transgression and I sympathise to an extent with the pilots.
But I remember being b*llocked for taxiing a Cessna a little faster than walking-pace during one of my first lessons, and for creeping up on a hold-line. My instructor said that an acceptance of small breaches when it doesn't really matter leads to big trouble when it does.
If you begin breaking rules -- however small -- you're gradually eroding the safety margin that's designed to stop you getting dead one day.
(Meekly climbs off soapbox)
[This message has been edited by moschops (edited 08 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
I don't see how anyone can come up with an accurate FORWARD speed in a tight taxiing turn. INS/IRS/GPS, they'll be baffled during the turn and until they again see some essentially ‘forward' movement. Any momentary inputs to FDR's, which is presumably what hung the crew, certainly won't be accurate to 10%. Seems to me the crew could fight this on a sound technical defense. Anybody disagree?
Guest
Posts: n/a
And so who amongst us is going to be the FIRST to taxi in excess of his/her Company's OM, from now on?!
After all, exactly HOW MUCH time do you save by taxi-ing at, say 10-15 knots ABOVE the Ops Man max speed?...10 or 15 seconds, perhaps, on a l o n g taxi.
But....have an INCIDENT or ACCIDENT along the way, and the company will CRUCIFY you!
After all, exactly HOW MUCH time do you save by taxi-ing at, say 10-15 knots ABOVE the Ops Man max speed?...10 or 15 seconds, perhaps, on a l o n g taxi.
But....have an INCIDENT or ACCIDENT along the way, and the company will CRUCIFY you!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yes, it certainly does happen!
A good friend of mine who was a undergoing line training to be a 747 Captain with an airline that shall remain nameless, (and who was told that under no circumstances was he going to pass the line check no matter how well he did) failed one of his last rides becasue when he was taxying in he went up to 11kts on the ground speed indicator, and the limit was 10kts.
There was a couple of other rather silly things, but the point is that if 'they' feel like failing you then there's a multitude of ways.
A good friend of mine who was a undergoing line training to be a 747 Captain with an airline that shall remain nameless, (and who was told that under no circumstances was he going to pass the line check no matter how well he did) failed one of his last rides becasue when he was taxying in he went up to 11kts on the ground speed indicator, and the limit was 10kts.
There was a couple of other rather silly things, but the point is that if 'they' feel like failing you then there's a multitude of ways.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I'm pretty sure it wouldn't stand up in a court of law - everyone of the 737's that I fly indicate a ground-speed of 1kt when sat on the stand with the air-bridge attached.
------------------
"After V1, we'll take the emergency into the air - You call 'Positive Climb' and I'll ask for the gear up. We'll climb away at between V2 and V2 + 25"
------------------
"After V1, we'll take the emergency into the air - You call 'Positive Climb' and I'll ask for the gear up. We'll climb away at between V2 and V2 + 25"
Guest
Posts: n/a
Moschops. Your instructor needs to mature a little. The term "taxy only at a fast walking pace" was coined back in the war years where students flew Tiger Moths with no brakes and only a tail skid. Then it was sound advice.
Cessnas and what-have-you, have hydraulic brakes and a partially steerable nosewheel which makes taxying more controllable, with commensurate sensible faster taxy speed.The operative word is "sensible". Mind you, the instructor makes more money from you if you taxy as slow as a Tiger Moth. Looks like you were truly taken for a ride in more ways than one.
Cessnas and what-have-you, have hydraulic brakes and a partially steerable nosewheel which makes taxying more controllable, with commensurate sensible faster taxy speed.The operative word is "sensible". Mind you, the instructor makes more money from you if you taxy as slow as a Tiger Moth. Looks like you were truly taken for a ride in more ways than one.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Anytime flying with JAL it always seems to me that there are two landings – the initial one, and then the next one about one second later. As it doesn’t seem to happen with other Japanese airlines, I wondered if it was part of the training?
PAXboy’s point about train drivers is also very true – a recent incident with a Bullett Train driver led to him being disciplined. He realised that he wasn’t wearing his cap as he drove the train, and as this was against regulations he propped open the dead man’s handle, and then went back several carriages to collect the cap. The train apparently went 1 or 2 miles in Tokyo with no-one in the cab. Let’s hope this doesn’t set a precedent for pilots to follow.
PAXboy’s point about train drivers is also very true – a recent incident with a Bullett Train driver led to him being disciplined. He realised that he wasn’t wearing his cap as he drove the train, and as this was against regulations he propped open the dead man’s handle, and then went back several carriages to collect the cap. The train apparently went 1 or 2 miles in Tokyo with no-one in the cab. Let’s hope this doesn’t set a precedent for pilots to follow.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Okay guys, this was a 747-200 - and we ALL know HOW accurate the ground speed readout is, on THIS particular series! (For those of you who are not (familiar), I would give it a plus or minus 50% rate of accuracy).
And, btw. I, nor no-one I know personally or otherwise, was involved in tnis incident/accident.
And, btw. I, nor no-one I know personally or otherwise, was involved in tnis incident/accident.
Guest
Posts: n/a
But that's not the point mate, is it!
If the thing says 10kts (whether it's accurate or not) that's the limit, and if you go faster than 10kts when you hit something then it's your neck.
Of course, here in FR we rarely taxi over 10kts...and then only with permission.
If the thing says 10kts (whether it's accurate or not) that's the limit, and if you go faster than 10kts when you hit something then it's your neck.
Of course, here in FR we rarely taxi over 10kts...and then only with permission.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Precisely max - whatever the OM states, no matter how ridiculously SLOW it may seem to us, exceed that speed and you are violating your Company's procedures.
As a further aside to the JAL accident, the final (4th) "Safety Recommendation" to come out of this states "The Shanghai Pu Dong International Airport shall remove all the floodlights along the parking lots (in the area where the transgression occurred)." (But as maxalt pointed out, this is not the point of the posting.)
As a further aside to the JAL accident, the final (4th) "Safety Recommendation" to come out of this states "The Shanghai Pu Dong International Airport shall remove all the floodlights along the parking lots (in the area where the transgression occurred)." (But as maxalt pointed out, this is not the point of the posting.)
Guest
Posts: n/a
AVMAN, it's not a question of getting away with anything but rather one of common sense,
I assume you are'nt a pilot or you would know we don't have speedometers in our aircraft. In fact even if we did I doubt they would be accurate to 1 knot! End of lesson, you are the weakest link AVMAN-GOODBYE!!!
I assume you are'nt a pilot or you would know we don't have speedometers in our aircraft. In fact even if we did I doubt they would be accurate to 1 knot! End of lesson, you are the weakest link AVMAN-GOODBYE!!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Obviously JAL won't be hiring any ex-Southwest pilots if 10kts is not to be exceeded (only kidding SWA)!
As most of us are paid by the minute, it's a pity 10 kts isn't a global standard.
Monitoring 10 kts would be tough, though. As one poster already noted we don't all have "speeometers" and, to the best of my knowledge, Halfords are unlikely to have anything suitable.
Seems more likely that JAL decided it was the Captain's fault and this was the easiest way to pin it on him/her.
dd
Guest
Posts: n/a
Oh for Christ's sake Deadleg what do you think the smilie and the wink was for??? And by the way, are you really a Captain??? If you had the intelligence to check my profile you would see that indeed I'm not a professional pilot. Yet, I bet I have more hours in the cockpit then you do. It was a little jokey jokey Mister Captain Sir (based on a fact regarding my speeding indiscretion).
[This message has been edited by Avman (edited 08 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Avman (edited 08 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Avman (edited 08 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Avman (edited 08 June 2001).]