easyJet - pilot tested over the limit?
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Well said Airbus Girl!
Fully agree with your post, especially this part: "It has been scientifically proven that a small degree of tiredness has the same effect as a small amount of alcohol.
Yet drinking is seen as a heinous crime .... but flying whilst knackered is seen as part of the job."
I donīt want to camouflage the actions of this one pilot, but itīs time people (especially airline managements and policymakers) start looking at the full picture of all factors leading to impaired pilot judgement.
Fully agree with your post, especially this part: "It has been scientifically proven that a small degree of tiredness has the same effect as a small amount of alcohol.
Yet drinking is seen as a heinous crime .... but flying whilst knackered is seen as part of the job."
I donīt want to camouflage the actions of this one pilot, but itīs time people (especially airline managements and policymakers) start looking at the full picture of all factors leading to impaired pilot judgement.
Join Date: Jul 2003
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I fully appreciate all sides of this debate. I can understand how pilots would feel that their integrity is being questioned should airlines elect to make breath tests prior to flights compulsory. But as someone mentioned earlier, do you not have to walk through a metal detector? Do you feel the same way because the airline doesn't trust you not to take a gun on board?
I am also a little disapointed with Danny, being a moderator. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - this is very important. However, why do you insist on basing what should be a common sense decision on statistics that we all know would not produce a negative result?
We are all very quick to attack the free press, but wouldn't a quick breath before each flight stop such stories?
Just a thought.
Cheers all
I am also a little disapointed with Danny, being a moderator. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - this is very important. However, why do you insist on basing what should be a common sense decision on statistics that we all know would not produce a negative result?
We are all very quick to attack the free press, but wouldn't a quick breath before each flight stop such stories?
Just a thought.
Cheers all
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A breath test would stop all stories, it would also save companies money. I would personally take one before every flight, but make sure I had not had any alchohol 24 hrs previous, but if positive then I would take a day off sick.
It is just like somebody walking out of a pub and heading towards their car when a policemen advises that they do not drive the car as they have had too much to drink.
Easy, stop the offence before it is committed.
All this reminds me of the Salem Witch Hunt, kill them before they have a chance.
It is just like somebody walking out of a pub and heading towards their car when a policemen advises that they do not drive the car as they have had too much to drink.
Easy, stop the offence before it is committed.
All this reminds me of the Salem Witch Hunt, kill them before they have a chance.
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Easyprisons comment may appear to be flippant but might not be too short of the mark....anyone who's experinced seemingly endless multi-leg days often ending in faceless hotel rooms, a hopelessly disrupted social life, the tedious repetion of short haul work can become mentally and physically fatigued resulting in depression which is only excaerbated by knowing one is trapped in the system until a way out can be found...not always easy in the aviation environment....
Alcohol can offer a temporary relief...as can drugs....fatigue will result in underperformance just as effectively as either and it's underperformance that is the real issue here.
I know of no recent accidents to aircraft that have been traced to alcohol or drugs (outside of private aviation) but more than a few can be traced directly or indirectly to fatigue....eg. The Halifax 747.
Lets have some media concern about the many hundreds of crew that are operating at below their best due to heavy rostering...
And please spare me the fatuous remarks about getting out of the kitchen etc....we live in the real world..
Alcohol can offer a temporary relief...as can drugs....fatigue will result in underperformance just as effectively as either and it's underperformance that is the real issue here.
I know of no recent accidents to aircraft that have been traced to alcohol or drugs (outside of private aviation) but more than a few can be traced directly or indirectly to fatigue....eg. The Halifax 747.
Lets have some media concern about the many hundreds of crew that are operating at below their best due to heavy rostering...
And please spare me the fatuous remarks about getting out of the kitchen etc....we live in the real world..
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Fatigue vs. abuse
Good morning,
It is a given that any kind of abuse, alcohol or drugs, while involved in aviation is simply not allowed, accepted or legal. It is not and should not be tolerated. Period.
However, I agree with poorwandering1 completely. We cannot take our eyes of the abuse issue but we need to focus the brunt of our attention on Flight Time Limitations/rostering. Those of us involved in aviation probably agree, I hope, that 'predatory scheduling' is a much bigger problem than abuse. It has cost lives in the past and it will continue to do so unless practices are changed.
I can already hear/read the reply: "another spoiled pilot longing for the good old days". Not true. The real issue here of course is safety for the pax AND myself. And I will claim that fatigue is a bigger problem than abuse.
Any takers??
Regards,
Ramrise
It is a given that any kind of abuse, alcohol or drugs, while involved in aviation is simply not allowed, accepted or legal. It is not and should not be tolerated. Period.
However, I agree with poorwandering1 completely. We cannot take our eyes of the abuse issue but we need to focus the brunt of our attention on Flight Time Limitations/rostering. Those of us involved in aviation probably agree, I hope, that 'predatory scheduling' is a much bigger problem than abuse. It has cost lives in the past and it will continue to do so unless practices are changed.
I can already hear/read the reply: "another spoiled pilot longing for the good old days". Not true. The real issue here of course is safety for the pax AND myself. And I will claim that fatigue is a bigger problem than abuse.
Any takers??
Regards,
Ramrise
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Having suffered easyjets rosters for a number of years, I agree totally with Ramrise and I believe easyprisons comment reflects the continuing deliberate failure to address the problem properly.
It is a disgrace.
It is a disgrace.
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Just to clarify my earlier post...I would not tolerate anyone presenting themselves for duty under the influence of either alcohol or drugs....
I simply believe that the use of alcohol on stopovers and short duty breaks is the 'effect' and not the cause...
I don't blieve that we have a problem with hard-core alcoholics...statistics indicate quite the contrary...we must be some of the best disiplined professionals around...
Alcohol is being used by people who are probably only moderate drinkers needing an escape from the repetitive pressures forced on them in an increasingly demanding schedule...
Pilots are flying when they're mentally below par...that's not new...but where is the limit..?
Fatigue can't be measured by blowing into a machine or in blood samples... yet it is every bit as deadly and far more common than alcohol abuse...maybe just not as sexy for the tabloids...
I simply believe that the use of alcohol on stopovers and short duty breaks is the 'effect' and not the cause...
I don't blieve that we have a problem with hard-core alcoholics...statistics indicate quite the contrary...we must be some of the best disiplined professionals around...
Alcohol is being used by people who are probably only moderate drinkers needing an escape from the repetitive pressures forced on them in an increasingly demanding schedule...
Pilots are flying when they're mentally below par...that's not new...but where is the limit..?
Fatigue can't be measured by blowing into a machine or in blood samples... yet it is every bit as deadly and far more common than alcohol abuse...maybe just not as sexy for the tabloids...
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Next thing we will reported by the responsible professionals at screeninig that they think we are too tired to work.
Or a law will be passed to prevent tiredness.
What a joke.
Ithink BALPA & GATCO should adress these issues pretty quick before an accident does happen. They say safety is expensive, wait till you have an accident.
Or a law will be passed to prevent tiredness.
What a joke.
Ithink BALPA & GATCO should adress these issues pretty quick before an accident does happen. They say safety is expensive, wait till you have an accident.
ex-Tanker
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Taking sides
Seems two me that there are two arguments (four parties) here:
A."Generally all is well" vs. B."We should take it a lot more seriously"
&
A."Company breathtesting is a liberty" vs B."Company breathtesting will solve it all".
As I read through, I have to say I tend to belong to the Bs - even though it may seem an extreme stand.
For a start we have company alcohol limits which are not the same as legal limits and we have habits in everyday life (lifestyle) which are not compatible with handling machinery and making good judgements.
Both of these anomolies need addressing. Companies have to toe the party (legal) line here. Crews, whether they like it or not,
have to accept that companies need to make sure that the laws are being followed. Aircrews have the last word in the air, represent their companies and generally take on a lot of responsibility. It isn't a "gentleman's fault" we are talking about here but a life and image threatening one.
And by the way, the British Press has been going downhill for years. When you are out of the country for a while and return to read what was a once reasonable news sheet to find it full of scandals, unknown "personalities" and bad taste, just no real news, then you realise it. The only way to deal with that is to give no cause for criticism, for they will cheerfully ruin anyone's career or position.
A."Generally all is well" vs. B."We should take it a lot more seriously"
&
A."Company breathtesting is a liberty" vs B."Company breathtesting will solve it all".
As I read through, I have to say I tend to belong to the Bs - even though it may seem an extreme stand.
For a start we have company alcohol limits which are not the same as legal limits and we have habits in everyday life (lifestyle) which are not compatible with handling machinery and making good judgements.
Both of these anomolies need addressing. Companies have to toe the party (legal) line here. Crews, whether they like it or not,
have to accept that companies need to make sure that the laws are being followed. Aircrews have the last word in the air, represent their companies and generally take on a lot of responsibility. It isn't a "gentleman's fault" we are talking about here but a life and image threatening one.
And by the way, the British Press has been going downhill for years. When you are out of the country for a while and return to read what was a once reasonable news sheet to find it full of scandals, unknown "personalities" and bad taste, just no real news, then you realise it. The only way to deal with that is to give no cause for criticism, for they will cheerfully ruin anyone's career or position.
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Ramrise you are correct in terms of the industry and esp. in the easyJets case. All aberrations follow an auditable trail-the roster.
Few Cloudy-hows retirement from the eagle's nest-Whilst no sane pilot would disagree with the outcome your measures may deliver-the execution is a little 'rough'; low cost but a sticking plaster on a cut that won't heal.
This is an example of the industry finding is own level and the consequence of fashionable roster practises-its time to pay back.
Your point about the press is correct. So one individual can sink a ship; which is why statistical evidence of the part that alcohol plays is irrelevant from one perspective.
This is a very bright and clear signal that all is not well with the world of low cost who use CAP 371. CEOs and CAA take note.
The very best can become your nemisis in a very short space of time-MAKE easy follow a 5/3 pattern LIMIT changes-and if that does not suit the bussiness or the investors - we all know an airline that can.
Few Cloudy-hows retirement from the eagle's nest-Whilst no sane pilot would disagree with the outcome your measures may deliver-the execution is a little 'rough'; low cost but a sticking plaster on a cut that won't heal.
This is an example of the industry finding is own level and the consequence of fashionable roster practises-its time to pay back.
Your point about the press is correct. So one individual can sink a ship; which is why statistical evidence of the part that alcohol plays is irrelevant from one perspective.
This is a very bright and clear signal that all is not well with the world of low cost who use CAP 371. CEOs and CAA take note.
The very best can become your nemisis in a very short space of time-MAKE easy follow a 5/3 pattern LIMIT changes-and if that does not suit the bussiness or the investors - we all know an airline that can.
ex-Tanker
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Retirement is fine LF, thanks. Lots of bicycle and guitar. Not quite so much Pprune.
How is the nest?
By the way, I donīt think it is only a low cost carrier problem.....
How is the nest?
By the way, I donīt think it is only a low cost carrier problem.....
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Little Friend - I am not being rude but I have just read your post several times and it is almost totally incomprehensible. It is like a riddle or something. What exactly are you trying to put forward? I have the feeling you actually do have something to say but I just cannot get it. Please re-transmit in a non-cryptic form so we can all understand. If English is not your first language then please excuse me.
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I was in a hotel bar last night talking to a captain of a certain eastern european airline. He was completely drunk so I thought he had a few days leave. At midnight, he told me that he had to go to bed as he had to be at the airport at 5am. He staggered up to his room!
Not so unusual I think in some countries.
Not so unusual I think in some countries.
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How the hell did a passenger smell alchohol on the pilot's breath. It is getting into a state of paranoia now. Anyone can accuse anybody under the new laws. It could even get to the situation now when somebody is being ejected from the plane for whatever reason makes an accusation. My view is that the level needs revising and also a re-education (as FL said) is required. Which must include the CAA (as the governing body), the aviation employers, the aviation employees (which includes all subject to the new law), BALPA, GATCO and associated Unions.
Rgds
ILS 119,5
Rgds
ILS 119,5