easyJet - pilot tested over the limit?
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flapless,
Others have already pointed out that my first words were not to be taken as sincere, and I agree with Wizofoz's analysis.
I hope - no, I'm sure - that your new rostering system will solve all your problems, after all, the 'new rostering systems' that have been churned in and out in the last seven years or so in your company have invariably worked beautifully and to always to the pilots' benefits.
(That, again, was sarcasm, just in case you still couldn't spot it).
A quick call to the T&G office in Luton will confirm that there are (and have been for some time) a number of easyJet pilots who are members of that union, as was the pilot who was assisted by them some time ago.
Oh, and I'll stay in the conversation when it suits me, thanks all the same for your offer!
Others have already pointed out that my first words were not to be taken as sincere, and I agree with Wizofoz's analysis.
I hope - no, I'm sure - that your new rostering system will solve all your problems, after all, the 'new rostering systems' that have been churned in and out in the last seven years or so in your company have invariably worked beautifully and to always to the pilots' benefits.
(That, again, was sarcasm, just in case you still couldn't spot it).
A quick call to the T&G office in Luton will confirm that there are (and have been for some time) a number of easyJet pilots who are members of that union, as was the pilot who was assisted by them some time ago.
Oh, and I'll stay in the conversation when it suits me, thanks all the same for your offer!
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Final 3 Greens
I hate to disappoint.....
It may have escaped your notice, but this happened in Germany, it is therefore a matter of how the German Police and Prosecution Authority chose to proceed. Nothing to do with UK law and how that is enforced.(although there are circumstances when she could be prosecuted under UK law)
In any event, yes, law is passed to be obeyed, if not, then yes it gets enforced. As for impingement on life style? Well depends on your life style doesn't it? I don't drink often, so the UK legislation would make no change to my world. Others drink more, but with some care they can easily avoid being over the limit for flying or driving.
As far as I can find, there are no airline accidents where alcohol was involved in the UK. That may be different in other parts of the world.
If you do some research, you will find that the CAA asked for the UK legislation to be introduced as a result of a recommendation from AAIB in respect of a light aircraft accident. (Pauses for howls of indignation). Common sense says you cannot have one rule for private pilots and one for airline pilots. Hence the law applies to both, in the same way as a bus driver is subject to the same drinking driving laws as a car driver is.
As to the levels, I have no idea why Europe decided they were the levels that should be set, but they did, the CAA and Government adopted that level as a result. In any event, it really doesn't matter as both the pilots so far dealt with in the UK were well over that limit.
As to this lady being drunk, I doubt she was. Having said that, I have known people arrested as the result of a breath test result of about the same level who were certainly also unfit to drive also.
I hate to disappoint.....
It may have escaped your notice, but this happened in Germany, it is therefore a matter of how the German Police and Prosecution Authority chose to proceed. Nothing to do with UK law and how that is enforced.(although there are circumstances when she could be prosecuted under UK law)
In any event, yes, law is passed to be obeyed, if not, then yes it gets enforced. As for impingement on life style? Well depends on your life style doesn't it? I don't drink often, so the UK legislation would make no change to my world. Others drink more, but with some care they can easily avoid being over the limit for flying or driving.
As far as I can find, there are no airline accidents where alcohol was involved in the UK. That may be different in other parts of the world.
If you do some research, you will find that the CAA asked for the UK legislation to be introduced as a result of a recommendation from AAIB in respect of a light aircraft accident. (Pauses for howls of indignation). Common sense says you cannot have one rule for private pilots and one for airline pilots. Hence the law applies to both, in the same way as a bus driver is subject to the same drinking driving laws as a car driver is.
As to the levels, I have no idea why Europe decided they were the levels that should be set, but they did, the CAA and Government adopted that level as a result. In any event, it really doesn't matter as both the pilots so far dealt with in the UK were well over that limit.
As to this lady being drunk, I doubt she was. Having said that, I have known people arrested as the result of a breath test result of about the same level who were certainly also unfit to drive also.
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BJCC
I was just being playful, thus the :-) icon. As (you are) a police officer, I realise that you must enforce the laws passed by the government of the day, regardless of your personal feelings.
The condundrum seems to be how an individual tests their own compliance, accurately and thus avoids becoming a criminal.
I do fnd it ironic that the people who pass such laws in this country have bars in the workplace and apparently use them on duty.
I was just being playful, thus the :-) icon. As (you are) a police officer, I realise that you must enforce the laws passed by the government of the day, regardless of your personal feelings.
The condundrum seems to be how an individual tests their own compliance, accurately and thus avoids becoming a criminal.
I do fnd it ironic that the people who pass such laws in this country have bars in the workplace and apparently use them on duty.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 12th Jan 2005 at 18:41.
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Final 3 Greens,
I think you'll find BJCC is no longer in the police, although when asked when he left by myself, he wouldn't answer.
You'd be forgiven for thinking he was indeed plodding away given the flavour of his answers.
However for someone who tries to write in precise terms re the law and its application, he does make some howlers.
The idea of drunkeness re driving law in the UK has no definition.The merely differentiates as to whether tou are over the limit, or whether you are "unfit" either through drink or drugs.
The analogy of the Public Sevice Vehicle-busdriver-and the car driver is not quite so simple.
Same law yes, but eg in the case of a bus driver with schoolchildren on board, the penalties would be much more severe.
With aviation, things are simpler with in effect a zero tolerence approach.
There is a concept of he idea of public responsibility that an airline pilot should have to his pax which seperates the probable punishment notwithstanding the same legislation applies
I think you'll find BJCC is no longer in the police, although when asked when he left by myself, he wouldn't answer.
You'd be forgiven for thinking he was indeed plodding away given the flavour of his answers.
However for someone who tries to write in precise terms re the law and its application, he does make some howlers.
The idea of drunkeness re driving law in the UK has no definition.The merely differentiates as to whether tou are over the limit, or whether you are "unfit" either through drink or drugs.
The analogy of the Public Sevice Vehicle-busdriver-and the car driver is not quite so simple.
Same law yes, but eg in the case of a bus driver with schoolchildren on board, the penalties would be much more severe.
With aviation, things are simpler with in effect a zero tolerence approach.
There is a concept of he idea of public responsibility that an airline pilot should have to his pax which seperates the probable punishment notwithstanding the same legislation applies
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Final 3 Greens
Who would these people who have bars and use them on duty be?
I was a Police officer, no longer.
I agree with the condundrum, but one or 2 glasses 8-12 hours before you fly, or work isn't going to be there in the morning. 10 pints then you are running a big risk. The problem is the area in between. It may not be a popular thing to say, but being careful, or going without is really the only way....It all comes down to what someone values most, thier job or a drink.
As to feeling safer? Well, I arrested a pilot, turned out to be just over the drink drive limit, on his way into LHR one afternoon. He insisted his driving was not affected (it was, it was crap which is why he was stopped). He didn't fly that afternoon, mostly because he spent a fair amount of it sat in the Police station but to be honest I wouldn't want him flying me or my family, so if this deters him then great.
Who would these people who have bars and use them on duty be?
I was a Police officer, no longer.
I agree with the condundrum, but one or 2 glasses 8-12 hours before you fly, or work isn't going to be there in the morning. 10 pints then you are running a big risk. The problem is the area in between. It may not be a popular thing to say, but being careful, or going without is really the only way....It all comes down to what someone values most, thier job or a drink.
As to feeling safer? Well, I arrested a pilot, turned out to be just over the drink drive limit, on his way into LHR one afternoon. He insisted his driving was not affected (it was, it was crap which is why he was stopped). He didn't fly that afternoon, mostly because he spent a fair amount of it sat in the Police station but to be honest I wouldn't want him flying me or my family, so if this deters him then great.
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Final 3 Greens
If he drove like that sober, then he would never have passed a driving test.
mach79
I ignored your question, because it's not relevent.
Any more than your claims to be 'more senior' than PC are, or your reasons for no longer being.
If you want to turn this into a slanging match, feel free, to do it elsewhere.
You are right, there are 2 offences as you stated, and your point is?
As regards to the bus driver, the fact he had passengers on board would lead to a stiffer penelty, in exactly the same way, I would guess that a private pilot would get a lower penelty to an airline pilot with the same BAC reading. However time will tell on that score.
If he drove like that sober, then he would never have passed a driving test.
mach79
I ignored your question, because it's not relevent.
Any more than your claims to be 'more senior' than PC are, or your reasons for no longer being.
If you want to turn this into a slanging match, feel free, to do it elsewhere.
You are right, there are 2 offences as you stated, and your point is?
As regards to the bus driver, the fact he had passengers on board would lead to a stiffer penelty, in exactly the same way, I would guess that a private pilot would get a lower penelty to an airline pilot with the same BAC reading. However time will tell on that score.
Last edited by bjcc; 12th Jan 2005 at 19:51.
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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Oh for heavens sake, who woke bjcc up? Do we have to endure the endless replies that try to whittle the argument down to its sub atomic particle levels with comparisons to bus drivers and whatever? Give us a break. If you're going to post your opinion then at least give it 12-24 hours before you jump in with your 'last word' analasys instead of trying to reply to every post as it appears. It makes the thread ever so dull when we have to hear [sic] the monotonous and never ending drone of one mans reminiscing about when he was a plod and the law actually means this or that. 
Can't you just point us to previous threads on similar topics where you have dragged a dead subject up umpteen times with your stock answers. 
I'll get me hat now.
Can't you just point us to previous threads on similar topics where you have dragged a dead subject up umpteen times with your stock answers. I'll get me hat now.
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I do find it ironic that the people who pass such laws in this country have bars in the workplace and apparently use them on duty
Our own Parlament has a number of Bars and were recently discovered to have never been "Licensed"
after xxx knows how many years of operation
Last edited by hobie; 13th Jan 2005 at 09:49.
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BJCC,
You ignored my question because you wouldn't have liked the answer you would have to have given because it would have given the date you joined-and no, Z-Cars probably wasn't on TVwhile you pounded your beat-correct?
Thanks for telling me I was right about drink driving legislation son.Only thing is, I was was probably reading ot while you were still at school.
Re your question"The point is?" , the point is the definition of being drunk is nowhere to be mentioned.When you said that you doubted she was drunk, it was meaningless.
Regards testing the pilot, you appear to write with such relish, that you seem to have issues re pilots that will probably cause you problems in your new chosen career.
You ignored my question because you wouldn't have liked the answer you would have to have given because it would have given the date you joined-and no, Z-Cars probably wasn't on TVwhile you pounded your beat-correct?
Thanks for telling me I was right about drink driving legislation son.Only thing is, I was was probably reading ot while you were still at school.
Re your question"The point is?" , the point is the definition of being drunk is nowhere to be mentioned.When you said that you doubted she was drunk, it was meaningless.
Regards testing the pilot, you appear to write with such relish, that you seem to have issues re pilots that will probably cause you problems in your new chosen career.
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What has annoyed me reading through the posts has been the reaction of some pilots to this "rumour and news" posting which was pretty obvious to be genuine from the start
I wonder what would your response would be if you had a child on a bus that was going to be driven by someone caught under the influence, would you mind if the story was out in the open as soon as?
The days of keeping things quiet until proven guilty are over.
I genuinly feel sorry for her and maybe airlines and unions should be taking more steps to understand why it seems to be happening more often, if indeed it is.
I wonder what would your response would be if you had a child on a bus that was going to be driven by someone caught under the influence, would you mind if the story was out in the open as soon as?
The days of keeping things quiet until proven guilty are over.
I genuinly feel sorry for her and maybe airlines and unions should be taking more steps to understand why it seems to be happening more often, if indeed it is.
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Astro Domine (ex nav per chance?), as I stated previously easyJet have not made any attempt to hide this incident from their employees.
You seem to be suggesting that easyJet are misleading everyone in that there has been previous drink/flying incidents involving pilots within the company. Pilot members of the TGWU are extremely rare (I have met one in my whole career), but you are suggesting that a number of pilots have used the T&G to somehow assist them to escape from retribution in previous incidents. I personally am not aware of a single other incident of this kind in easyJet's history, nor am I aware of any pilot ever attempting to fly whilst 'under the influence' and it subsequently being hushed up. You, however, appear to have the advantage of me. Despite not appearing to be either a commerical pilot or an employee of easyJet your 'insight' into all that goes on within the company is remarkable. It is quite simple - either easyJet or you is not telling the truth. You are hiding under a cloak of anonimity to make exremely serious and unsubstantiated allegations. You should either clarify your previous claim or withdraw it completely.
You seem to be suggesting that easyJet are misleading everyone in that there has been previous drink/flying incidents involving pilots within the company. Pilot members of the TGWU are extremely rare (I have met one in my whole career), but you are suggesting that a number of pilots have used the T&G to somehow assist them to escape from retribution in previous incidents. I personally am not aware of a single other incident of this kind in easyJet's history, nor am I aware of any pilot ever attempting to fly whilst 'under the influence' and it subsequently being hushed up. You, however, appear to have the advantage of me. Despite not appearing to be either a commerical pilot or an employee of easyJet your 'insight' into all that goes on within the company is remarkable. It is quite simple - either easyJet or you is not telling the truth. You are hiding under a cloak of anonimity to make exremely serious and unsubstantiated allegations. You should either clarify your previous claim or withdraw it completely.
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This world seems to full of self righteous twits with ready commentary on a subject of which they know very little but such is the pilots' lot I guess. It was until relatively recently that, should you have been sitting in a french cockpit, a glass wine would have been an integral part of the crew meal. Lots of pranged french aircraft everywhere ? I don't think so.
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Autobrake
It was from this knowledge, as a long time pax user of AF (and others) that prompted my earlier comment that I don't feel any safer because of this new legislation.
There are plenty of reasons that I do feel safer, e.g. new generation aircraft, more experience operating jet aircraft and learning the lessons (as 411a recently pointed out about upsets), better nav kit etc etc
Hope I'm not one of the opinionated twits you mention
It was from this knowledge, as a long time pax user of AF (and others) that prompted my earlier comment that I don't feel any safer because of this new legislation.
There are plenty of reasons that I do feel safer, e.g. new generation aircraft, more experience operating jet aircraft and learning the lessons (as 411a recently pointed out about upsets), better nav kit etc etc
Hope I'm not one of the opinionated twits you mention