Santa Maria HF c alling for REECH-1005
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USAF R/T procedures
HI all, just a quick follow-up. Recently separated (this year) after ten years flying USAF C-130s all over the world. The problem is indeed what one post mentions. The AF has yet to install SelCal on its 130 fleet. We were (and still are) forced to continuously monitor HFs that, in accordance with generally accepted government contracting practices, are of inferior quality. End result? Repeated radio calls that you can hear because the 130 crew cannot receive the reply.
Trust me, as annoying as it may be to listen to them from another aircraft, the AF crews are infinitely more annoyed...
Cheers,
Trust me, as annoying as it may be to listen to them from another aircraft, the AF crews are infinitely more annoyed...
Cheers,
BusyB > I'd much rather hear all the hot air on this thread being used in favour of a much better system than HF, there has to be one!<
SatCom, Data Link as a starter?
All proves that speech RT is probably one of the worst communications systems - all the more reason to stick to standard phraseology etc.
SatCom, Data Link as a starter?
All proves that speech RT is probably one of the worst communications systems - all the more reason to stick to standard phraseology etc.
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I was taught NATS proceedures by TWA people who had flown the Connie across the Atlantic. I was taught to do it right. I still occasionally make mistakes.
One night a couple of months ago I flew from WAW-DUS-MXP. I worked the radio on those legs and I was a disaster! The guy flying had to cover for me on 75% of the calls. I just wasn't used to flying around Europe. It takes a while to adjust.
Unless you are operating exclusively onutside the U.S., it's difficult to maintain proper radio disipline(the U.S. ATC system being weak in that regard). Maintaining currency in that area of operations is difficult if you don't do it frequently.
I can't speak for the military but it seems many civilian operators in the U.S. just don't take communications seriously enough.
Always trying to improve.TC
One night a couple of months ago I flew from WAW-DUS-MXP. I worked the radio on those legs and I was a disaster! The guy flying had to cover for me on 75% of the calls. I just wasn't used to flying around Europe. It takes a while to adjust.
Unless you are operating exclusively onutside the U.S., it's difficult to maintain proper radio disipline(the U.S. ATC system being weak in that regard). Maintaining currency in that area of operations is difficult if you don't do it frequently.
I can't speak for the military but it seems many civilian operators in the U.S. just don't take communications seriously enough.
Always trying to improve.TC
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Oh my Gosh....
The USAF lost again...
My tax dollars at work, training the few who, by this time, should sure as hell know how to make position reports in a respectable fashion, and not sound like an eight year old child, doing so.
Good grief......
PS: Affirmative action at work. 
My tax dollars at work, training the few who, by this time, should sure as hell know how to make position reports in a respectable fashion, and not sound like an eight year old child, doing so.
Good grief......
PS: Affirmative action at work.
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Must say that there is far too much inane "chat",especially in US airspace.
Why do US carriers insist on asking for ride reports every 5 minutes,even when the air is as smooth as a baby's behind ?
And why do we have to be subjected to "Have you got the score for the big game please"-you know the one,when the Boston Badgers are playing the Pittsburgh Potbellies
Why do US carriers insist on asking for ride reports every 5 minutes,even when the air is as smooth as a baby's behind ?
And why do we have to be subjected to "Have you got the score for the big game please"-you know the one,when the Boston Badgers are playing the Pittsburgh Potbellies
I gather that someone once tried asking London Information for the result of some footie match or other - and was very quickly told "NO!"
But a call was received a few years ago at Brize Ops asking which horse had won some particular race..... As it came from a certain red Andover and was of great interest to the horse's owner - their rather important passenger - the Ops guys quickly checked the teletext news to find out!
I sympathise with those USAF guys who don't have SelCal - it must be dreadfully fatiguing having to listen to all the HF noise for hours at a time in something slow like a C130. Surely it's a safety hazard? Or have they got some gucci automatic position reporting data link?
But a call was received a few years ago at Brize Ops asking which horse had won some particular race..... As it came from a certain red Andover and was of great interest to the horse's owner - their rather important passenger - the Ops guys quickly checked the teletext news to find out!
I sympathise with those USAF guys who don't have SelCal - it must be dreadfully fatiguing having to listen to all the HF noise for hours at a time in something slow like a C130. Surely it's a safety hazard? Or have they got some gucci automatic position reporting data link?
ZbV
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Ferrying light airplanes many moons ago listening to HF for hours was the norm. Longest flight I ever did was 18h 6min.
Our HF system was at best rather crude and you could not get it hooked to the aircraft audio system.
JJ
Our HF system was at best rather crude and you could not get it hooked to the aircraft audio system.
JJ
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Hi Beagle
I flew MAC from '71-'78, over 100 hrs/month, sometimes...usually involving a Pacific or Atlantic leg. Selcal was not provided, and as I said, had we not turned down the volume between required calls, and hoped for the best, I'd have busted FAA physicals hearing exams starting 27 years ago. This might give some insight as to why USAF flights don't respond (quickly, or at all) to HF calls. Very bad practice, but all the alternatives were bad. $800 for toilet seats, but no selcal!
Also, back then, were were told in '72 that HF would no longer be used in the North Atlantic after '75...or was my hearing that bad already!
I flew MAC from '71-'78, over 100 hrs/month, sometimes...usually involving a Pacific or Atlantic leg. Selcal was not provided, and as I said, had we not turned down the volume between required calls, and hoped for the best, I'd have busted FAA physicals hearing exams starting 27 years ago. This might give some insight as to why USAF flights don't respond (quickly, or at all) to HF calls. Very bad practice, but all the alternatives were bad. $800 for toilet seats, but no selcal!
Also, back then, were were told in '72 that HF would no longer be used in the North Atlantic after '75...or was my hearing that bad already!
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>>Also, back then, were were told in '72 that HF would no longer be used in the North Atlantic after '75...or was my hearing that bad already!<<
Yep, I remember exactly the same prediction in the '70's "don't worry son, this will all be on the satellites in five years..."
Kinda like a few years ago when they were going to shut down all ground based navaids in the U.S. and go to GPS.
Yep, I remember exactly the same prediction in the '70's "don't worry son, this will all be on the satellites in five years..."
Kinda like a few years ago when they were going to shut down all ground based navaids in the U.S. and go to GPS.
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American carriers ask for ride reports because they can be sued for turbulence-caused personal injury - and even threatened with FAA violations - happened to a UAL whale crew back in the nineties.
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Huck,
Fair point,but then so could European carriers.
I suppose the culture is different in the States where it seems you can be sued for even breaking a finger nail !!
Is it a FAA requirement to know the result of the "Big Game" too ?
(Are there any "Small" games played?)
American carriers ask for ride reports because they can be sued for turbulence-caused personal injury - and even threatened with FAA violations - happened to a UAL whale crew back in the nineties.
I suppose the culture is different in the States where it seems you can be sued for even breaking a finger nail !!
Is it a FAA requirement to know the result of the "Big Game" too ?
(Are there any "Small" games played?)
Thread Starter
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Hi Guys,
I started this topic a few weeks ago and since that time I was flying.
Now I come back and see all these posts!!
But my actual question was... Did anyone hear about the Reach1005.
I think the American RT is quite operational. No problem with it at all. Their controllers are always very helpfull and willing to give directs.
I dont mention that in Europe! Well... Less atleast!
Its dinndertime here... Everybody take care in 2005 and happy landings
Cheers
Skylark3
I started this topic a few weeks ago and since that time I was flying.
Now I come back and see all these posts!!
But my actual question was... Did anyone hear about the Reach1005.
I think the American RT is quite operational. No problem with it at all. Their controllers are always very helpfull and willing to give directs.
I dont mention that in Europe! Well... Less atleast!
Its dinndertime here... Everybody take care in 2005 and happy landings
Cheers
Skylark3
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Well, Skylark3
Figure. If you haven't heard of a USAF transport down in the last few weeks, he made it ok. Also, your question concerned his lack of response....if you've read the posts, as you inferred, you'd have concluded that it's highly likely he wasn't monitoring his HF ver efficiently, for physiological reasons (Pain in the Ears), and thus missed the call(s). This has been going on for at least 35 years, and there must be some good excuse for the US military knowingly endangering their own and other enroute aircraft by not providing Selcal in HF areas.
Figure. If you haven't heard of a USAF transport down in the last few weeks, he made it ok. Also, your question concerned his lack of response....if you've read the posts, as you inferred, you'd have concluded that it's highly likely he wasn't monitoring his HF ver efficiently, for physiological reasons (Pain in the Ears), and thus missed the call(s). This has been going on for at least 35 years, and there must be some good excuse for the US military knowingly endangering their own and other enroute aircraft by not providing Selcal in HF areas.
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zero zero, don't think for one minute that those previous responses are from "perfect" pilots. Some of them might not even be pilots...
I have recently heard absolutely terrible R/T from various Flag Carriers during an Atlantic crossing and I strongly doubt if any of them were born with an ATPL pinned to their crib.
We all have to learn somewhere and we all make mistakes somewhere along the line, hopefully not big ones.
Live and learn
I have recently heard absolutely terrible R/T from various Flag Carriers during an Atlantic crossing and I strongly doubt if any of them were born with an ATPL pinned to their crib.
We all have to learn somewhere and we all make mistakes somewhere along the line, hopefully not big ones.
Live and learn
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Thank you sir.
Sorry for the late reply, I've been busy crossing the Atlantic. Three times in one week!! You can bet my R/T is quite polished by now.
Now if I could just learn to stay awake!
Now if I could just learn to stay awake!
Left Seat 747
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Thanks Danny
Your comments about the childish taunting that occur regularly in these forums is right on the mark. I am appalled at the bashing that regularly goes on among "professional" pilots.
If the frequency is guiet at 2:00 AM the occassional "Have a nice day" by the pilot leaving the frequency or "happy landings" by the Turkish controller to the departing flight is not out of order, or a safety issue in my opinion. Notice I said "if the frequency is quiet."
Relative to the "Reach" aircraft, I have spent more than an hour on more than one occasion trying to get somebody on HF in the middle of the ocean to no avail. Sometimes, you just can't get through. So you try to get a relay and do a position report in the blind. We have all been there!
If the frequency is guiet at 2:00 AM the occassional "Have a nice day" by the pilot leaving the frequency or "happy landings" by the Turkish controller to the departing flight is not out of order, or a safety issue in my opinion. Notice I said "if the frequency is quiet."
Relative to the "Reach" aircraft, I have spent more than an hour on more than one occasion trying to get somebody on HF in the middle of the ocean to no avail. Sometimes, you just can't get through. So you try to get a relay and do a position report in the blind. We have all been there!
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Couple of days back heard Jeddah controller going crazy calling a reech aircraft, with no reply, for at least 20 mins. The guys climbed from FL220 to FL330 without clearance. Lots of aircraft vectored out of his way. It then took about 10 mins for these guys to understand their routing, blocking the freq for everyone else, embarassing is not the word. Nobody was surprised cause they do this stuff all the time, ask anyone who flys in the gulf region. When you hear them you pay extra special attn to TCAS.
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For what it's worth chaps if you do not reply to the R/T in U.K especially in the Upper Air ,certain wheels may start to be put in motion.Ironically it is our U.S cousins who appear to be the worst offenders. 
AyrTC
AyrTC
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For what it's worth, I can recall a retired captain from a US major airline telling me that at times, some of the most difficult ATC to understand were instructions given by Scottish and Welsh controllers in UK airspace, on account of their strongly accentuated English!
I've often heard virtually unintelligable RT emanating from a certain UK lo-cost airline due to a combination of excessively fast speech and word slurring. IMHO the problem of poor RT isn't the fault of any particular group or nationality of flyers.
I've often heard virtually unintelligable RT emanating from a certain UK lo-cost airline due to a combination of excessively fast speech and word slurring. IMHO the problem of poor RT isn't the fault of any particular group or nationality of flyers.