2 BA flights a day being fight escorted into France?
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2 BA flights a day being fight escorted into France?
Hi all
I heard that an average of 2 BA flights a day were being escorted by French fighter jets into French airspace. Anyone know why? Is it (un)intelligence/French welcome/practice for the French pilots or what?
TIA
PPete
I heard that an average of 2 BA flights a day were being escorted by French fighter jets into French airspace. Anyone know why? Is it (un)intelligence/French welcome/practice for the French pilots or what?
TIA
PPete
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Sounds like BS to me. Escorted into French airspace? That would mean the French had to be lurking on the boundary of their UIR just on the offchance that a BA flight should come along and doesn't make contact with the French after an incorrect/nil handover with London ATC. Seems an unlikely scenario to me. There are occasional intercepts of BA aircraft over French, but there are occasional intercepts of many airlines aircraft over France. Nothing wrong with the flight, just the French airforce practicing.
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Sorry, my bad grammar. Got no idea if the French AF are lurking just outside their airspace and escorting the BA acft into it. I would assume they the BA acft would enter French airspace before being intercepted.
Thanks for the info though.
Thanks for the info though.
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It's not exactly a 'hot' topic in the BA crew room, in fact it's not even an ice cold topic- it's not a topic at all. I don't think it's happening- nobody is talking about it. You 'assume' something that I don't think is happening. Where did you hear such tales?
Think there was some talk that it could happen given French sensitivities ( see Hand's post) and there has been the odd ASR raised about TCAS conflicts with the French military aircraft- but that's it; as far as being escorted. Nope
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There has been a item in the French NOTAMS over the past few weeks re. in case of inadvertant lost comms, keeping a listening watch on 121.5 on box 2 so you can chat to the fighters .. don't spoze rumour control started there and the "story" has snowballed ?
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BA or British ?
I think there has been a mis read somewhere.
Just read our in-house safety mag. On the front it said there were over 700 intercepts of BRITISH a/c in FRENCH airspace in a year.
So 2 british a/c a day, not 2 BA a/c a day. A bit more likely I say !
Just read our in-house safety mag. On the front it said there were over 700 intercepts of BRITISH a/c in FRENCH airspace in a year.
So 2 british a/c a day, not 2 BA a/c a day. A bit more likely I say !
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Intercepts
Intercept doesn't mean a M2000 ACTUALLY went into left wing of a civil A/C. It means that the pilots had to actually start their engines (and start rolling to the RWY), at least the bell was ringing at the quick reaction alert building...
The fact is that even at supersonic speed, intercepting a civil A/C at F350 somewhere around the FIR boundary when your base is Cambrai would take around 10'. Add an extra 10' for the chain of command and time to start/taxi/T/O and you end up with something like 20'==> 150NM travelled by the cookie at M.75 average!!! This is why the intercept is started BEFORE FIR boundary sometimes...
It happens more and more and my ex colleagues in the Air Force told me: nowadays it happens at least once a day for Belgium only!!!
If you watch 121.5 -as you're supposed to do- then the M2000 will be stopped somewhere on the RWY just before T/O. This costs a lot of money/time wasted to the Air Forces of Europe. Several warnings have already been issued to the companies that in some cases the company==> the Captain could be charged....
Food for thought,
The fact is that even at supersonic speed, intercepting a civil A/C at F350 somewhere around the FIR boundary when your base is Cambrai would take around 10'. Add an extra 10' for the chain of command and time to start/taxi/T/O and you end up with something like 20'==> 150NM travelled by the cookie at M.75 average!!! This is why the intercept is started BEFORE FIR boundary sometimes...
It happens more and more and my ex colleagues in the Air Force told me: nowadays it happens at least once a day for Belgium only!!!
If you watch 121.5 -as you're supposed to do- then the M2000 will be stopped somewhere on the RWY just before T/O. This costs a lot of money/time wasted to the Air Forces of Europe. Several warnings have already been issued to the companies that in some cases the company==> the Captain could be charged....
Food for thought,
It doesn’t surprise me that the French escort so many airliners, their controllers are the worst in Europe at letting you fly out of radio range. Don’t they have a system for handing you over before this happens? This has happened to me twice in as many months, I just ASR them now.
Before someone in ATC has a go, no I don’t know it is happening because you hear almost as much R/T on the frequency except that it gradually becomes just other aircraft as the ground station goes out of range.
S & L
PS Yes we were monitoring 121.5 on both occaisions. Had to reestablish comms via another a/c, they hadn't even noticed we were out of range.
Before someone in ATC has a go, no I don’t know it is happening because you hear almost as much R/T on the frequency except that it gradually becomes just other aircraft as the ground station goes out of range.
S & L
PS Yes we were monitoring 121.5 on both occaisions. Had to reestablish comms via another a/c, they hadn't even noticed we were out of range.
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Intercepts also for not properly working transponder. Colleague has been accompanied for that half over Europe. Radios OK.
Last edited by Alaskan Timber; 20th Dec 2004 at 22:28.
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I wonder if it is still the case that the French military and civil ATC staff don't talk to each other and co-ordinate what is going on in the sky.
If so then I expect a lot of these 'intercepts' might be avoided since the civil authorities would know what the track is and whether it is in communication or not.
The timing logic is sound, however, why would you set up an intercept for something that is probably in legitimate contact with an adjacent state and has not been transferred yet ? A flight that is going about its legal business without problem in international airspace. Or do the air defence people operate on a quota per day and miss a bonus payment if they don't tally the required number of civil (British) airliners ?? 
If so then I expect a lot of these 'intercepts' might be avoided since the civil authorities would know what the track is and whether it is in communication or not.
The fact is that even at supersonic speed, intercepting a civil A/C at F350 somewhere around the FIR boundary when your base is Cambrai would take around 10'. Add an extra 10' for the chain of command and time to start/taxi/T/O and you end up with something like 20'==> 150NM travelled by the cookie at M.75 average!!! This is why the intercept is started BEFORE FIR boundary sometimes...
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PPRuNe Radar, I think they have got better than they were as we actually get the occasional call from Brest/Reims civil co-ordinating a military transit just south of the FIR boundary. Even worse, we sometimes get the Mil guys themselves calling, then it can get exciting.
Its occurring too often now that a track approaching the FIR boundary from Brest Control is "out of contact" due to running out of RTF range.
CaptainSandL, the controller has no idea that you have run out of range until they cannot make contact. As it happens so often in Brest airspace, they probably have an idea that it could occur but to support them, the ranges of RTF all depend on so many factors that its not best to second guess (weather, receiving equipment, transmitters available, altitude of a/c etc). If you feel you are running out of range then maybe you have the responsibility of telling ATC they are 'fading out' and request a better frequency. You will probably find this time of year that the controller is using several frequencies at a time, all bandboxed together, so has one that suits coverage further north anyhow. If it does keep happenning then please keep the ASR's flowing, the occasional one that floats a little TOO far north before contact has already caused extra work at the wrong time for us receivers. With your ASR's and our MOR's then eventually they might actually listen.
Its occurring too often now that a track approaching the FIR boundary from Brest Control is "out of contact" due to running out of RTF range.
CaptainSandL, the controller has no idea that you have run out of range until they cannot make contact. As it happens so often in Brest airspace, they probably have an idea that it could occur but to support them, the ranges of RTF all depend on so many factors that its not best to second guess (weather, receiving equipment, transmitters available, altitude of a/c etc). If you feel you are running out of range then maybe you have the responsibility of telling ATC they are 'fading out' and request a better frequency. You will probably find this time of year that the controller is using several frequencies at a time, all bandboxed together, so has one that suits coverage further north anyhow. If it does keep happenning then please keep the ASR's flowing, the occasional one that floats a little TOO far north before contact has already caused extra work at the wrong time for us receivers. With your ASR's and our MOR's then eventually they might actually listen.
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I wonder if it is still the case that the French military and civil ATC staff don't talk to each other and co-ordinate what is going on in the sky.
Of course civil and military ATC talk to each other, we even have running water at the tap
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Many years ago I was flying across Iran in a 1-11. I looked out and saw an Iranian F5 on my wingtip. The Captain then looked out of his side window and found another on his wing as well. Inside were a couple of Iranian Airforce pilots who saluted us.
"I'll sort them out" he said and slowly closed the throttles which was followed by a wingdrop on both of the F5's.
We didn't see them again
"I'll sort them out" he said and slowly closed the throttles which was followed by a wingdrop on both of the F5's.
We didn't see them again
Money for flying?
Baron,
As a local can you explain why 90% of the time it takes at least 2 attempts to make initial contact with French ATC. Are all the controllers now dealing with more than one freq at a time.?
As a local can you explain why 90% of the time it takes at least 2 attempts to make initial contact with French ATC. Are all the controllers now dealing with more than one freq at a time.?
5milesbaby,
Yes it often does happen in Brest airspace, my last two were both on UM601. What annoys me is that having let me go out of range, they did not notice that I had gone until long after I should have been handed over to the next freq. If we had not have noticed that the volume of the other aircraft was getting quieter god knows how far we would have gone.
You say “the controller has no idea that you have run out of range” that seems like a big flaw in the system, anyway isn’t there a formula for VHF radio range (1.25 x Square root of altitude)? Surely a decent controller who works the same sector every day knows where his aircraft start to go out of range; he should have a better idea than the aircraft he works because we don’t know where his aerial is. It should be ATC not pilots who initiate freq changes on airways, otherwise we would be asking for freq changes at the notified points and that would really cheese everybody off.
Anyway, it is not always easy to notice that you have gone out of range, as you say controllers may be working more than one freq so you don’t always hear both sides of the R/T. Also the French often speak French to other aircraft so you don’t know which half you have heard. And of course if it is a long flight at the end of a long day and the calls are not for you, you simply don’t notice.
I still suspect that if they had scrambled a fighter to me I would have got much more of a bollocking than the controller, even though it was his mistake – and possibly the bill in the future!
S&L
Yes it often does happen in Brest airspace, my last two were both on UM601. What annoys me is that having let me go out of range, they did not notice that I had gone until long after I should have been handed over to the next freq. If we had not have noticed that the volume of the other aircraft was getting quieter god knows how far we would have gone.
You say “the controller has no idea that you have run out of range” that seems like a big flaw in the system, anyway isn’t there a formula for VHF radio range (1.25 x Square root of altitude)? Surely a decent controller who works the same sector every day knows where his aircraft start to go out of range; he should have a better idea than the aircraft he works because we don’t know where his aerial is. It should be ATC not pilots who initiate freq changes on airways, otherwise we would be asking for freq changes at the notified points and that would really cheese everybody off.
Anyway, it is not always easy to notice that you have gone out of range, as you say controllers may be working more than one freq so you don’t always hear both sides of the R/T. Also the French often speak French to other aircraft so you don’t know which half you have heard. And of course if it is a long flight at the end of a long day and the calls are not for you, you simply don’t notice.
I still suspect that if they had scrambled a fighter to me I would have got much more of a bollocking than the controller, even though it was his mistake – and possibly the bill in the future!
S&L
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Sorry to butt in outside of my normal forum but the winding up of the QRA machine is not unique to France. I'm surprised at how often UK QRA gets 'called to cockpit ready' (engines running) for you guys entering the UK FIR without talking to the correct agency at the correct time. Even if you are heading outbound, we still get the call.
I can only guess the reasons for this as I only have mil AD experience, no GAT, but the time scale of civ to mil to QRA shed co-ord time + time to scramble and start up must be substantial. How long can you be out of contact for? Does everyone have to listen to 121.5/243? (we think not) Do you get told that we were called out for you not communicating/squawking?
Cheers, merry christmas
Ray
I can only guess the reasons for this as I only have mil AD experience, no GAT, but the time scale of civ to mil to QRA shed co-ord time + time to scramble and start up must be substantial. How long can you be out of contact for? Does everyone have to listen to 121.5/243? (we think not) Do you get told that we were called out for you not communicating/squawking?
Cheers, merry christmas
Ray
