Squawking Ident
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QUOTE
As for alltitude reporting, if the passing level is not given in the initial contact then you DO NOT HAVE A RADAR SERVICE. The transponder is NOT verified and in a court of law you wouldn't stand a chance.
UNQUOTE
Just to clarify this: Mode C is only considered as verified when it has been cross checked on the radar display with a level report from the aircraft. This is usually the first radar unit on departure, but may also be an en route sector if you are joining airways from an airfield outside. Once this has been done, the Mode C is considered verified for the rest of the trip unless there are suspicions that it may be incorrect.
Thus, there is no need to give passing level on EVERY new frequency because they are not using that information to reverify your mode C.
However, a 'level passing' report can sometimes be a good trigger for further climb/descent clearance.
As for alltitude reporting, if the passing level is not given in the initial contact then you DO NOT HAVE A RADAR SERVICE. The transponder is NOT verified and in a court of law you wouldn't stand a chance.
UNQUOTE
Just to clarify this: Mode C is only considered as verified when it has been cross checked on the radar display with a level report from the aircraft. This is usually the first radar unit on departure, but may also be an en route sector if you are joining airways from an airfield outside. Once this has been done, the Mode C is considered verified for the rest of the trip unless there are suspicions that it may be incorrect.
Thus, there is no need to give passing level on EVERY new frequency because they are not using that information to reverify your mode C.
However, a 'level passing' report can sometimes be a good trigger for further climb/descent clearance.
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As for alltitude reporting, if the passing level is not given in the initial contact then you DO NOT HAVE A RADAR SERVICE.
At least that's the way it's supposed to work in the UK.
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Good thread with valuable contributions. It has cleared up some issues in my mind. This information is not easily available to the line pilot and non standard practices seem to become established quickly in some airlines. My latest CAP 413 is pretty thin on the ground on these topics and appears to be aimed at PPL level.
While we are on this subject can anyone throw light on why crews from one or two UK airlines call " maintaining FL XXX " when they reach their assigned level, have already been radar identified and no change of frequency has taken place? UK controllers tend to respond with a polite "roger" but the response from a few European agencies is becoming less patient to these seemingly unecessary calls.
While we are on this subject can anyone throw light on why crews from one or two UK airlines call " maintaining FL XXX " when they reach their assigned level, have already been radar identified and no change of frequency has taken place? UK controllers tend to respond with a polite "roger" but the response from a few European agencies is becoming less patient to these seemingly unecessary calls.
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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why crews from one or two UK airlines call " maintaining FL XXX " when they reach their assigned level, have already been radar identified and no change of frequency has taken place?
Agree that there is no need to 'announce' your arrival at a FL whilst under radar control just for the sake of it though.
Peoples' Champion!
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The correct response is Willco followed by the FULL CALLSIGN. Not just the number.
the correct response is just the squawk code followed by the c/s and not wilco. Here's the extract from CAP413 :
ATC: Fastair 345 squawk 6411
A/C: 6411 Fastair 345
ATC: Fastair 345 squawk ident
A/C: Squawk ident, Fastair
ATC: Fastair 345 squawk 6411 and ident
A/C: 6411 and ident, Fastair
ATC: Fastair 345 confirm squawk
A/C: Alpha 6411 Fastair 345
ATC: Fastair 345 reset squawk 6411
A/C: Resetting 6411 Fastair
ATC: Fastair 345 check altimeter setting
A/C: 1013 set Fastair 345
ATC: Fastair 345 confirm transponder operating
A/C: Fastair 345 negative, transponder unserviceable
A/C: 6411 Fastair 345
ATC: Fastair 345 squawk ident
A/C: Squawk ident, Fastair
ATC: Fastair 345 squawk 6411 and ident
A/C: 6411 and ident, Fastair
ATC: Fastair 345 confirm squawk
A/C: Alpha 6411 Fastair 345
ATC: Fastair 345 reset squawk 6411
A/C: Resetting 6411 Fastair
ATC: Fastair 345 check altimeter setting
A/C: 1013 set Fastair 345
ATC: Fastair 345 confirm transponder operating
A/C: Fastair 345 negative, transponder unserviceable
BH
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JAMMIR and cargo boy
Unfortunately, at one large airline in the UK it is company policy to report reaching the cleared level. I don't think this is a very good policy because 1. It is not required and thus adds to RTF loading with no gain and 2. It means that reporting level as a "nudge" if you are expecting climb no longer has an impact.
Just my view, of course.
G W-H
Unfortunately, at one large airline in the UK it is company policy to report reaching the cleared level. I don't think this is a very good policy because 1. It is not required and thus adds to RTF loading with no gain and 2. It means that reporting level as a "nudge" if you are expecting climb no longer has an impact.
Just my view, of course.
G W-H
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I thought it was sufficent to just push the ident button when asked to ident, but from now on I will comply with CAP 413
A previous post referencing 413 said we should state the initial SID required level when checking in on a stepped climb SID along with the passing level and SID designator. I thought that this was only required when ATC have modified the SID...ie maintain 3000'. How else do we communicate the difference when the two levels are the same (they usually are in my experience).
Hope this makes sense
A previous post referencing 413 said we should state the initial SID required level when checking in on a stepped climb SID along with the passing level and SID designator. I thought that this was only required when ATC have modified the SID...ie maintain 3000'. How else do we communicate the difference when the two levels are the same (they usually are in my experience).
Hope this makes sense
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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tishka - my recollection is that it came in a part of the campaign to avoid departure altitude busts so that ATC know WE know the SID limit and that we have 'reminded' ourselves with the call?
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BOAC- OK that makes sense, but i guess I'm thinking of the following situation-
Tower ask you on lining up to "maintain 3000'on reaching". The SID requires 3000' as well and we check into the sector saying "Callsign passing 1700' BPK 1A cleared 3000". Same call in both cases but very different clearances. It could be quite easy for ATC to think we know we are held down when WE don't....maybe we didn't get the message from tower or even worse maybe we have forgotten!!(helped along by making the same call in both cases)
Tower ask you on lining up to "maintain 3000'on reaching". The SID requires 3000' as well and we check into the sector saying "Callsign passing 1700' BPK 1A cleared 3000". Same call in both cases but very different clearances. It could be quite easy for ATC to think we know we are held down when WE don't....maybe we didn't get the message from tower or even worse maybe we have forgotten!!(helped along by making the same call in both cases)
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With regards to calls of 'maintaining FLxxx', or 'reaching FLxxx' I think you may find that these calls are an SOP at the particular airline(s) and are therefore a required call from the crew whether ATC expect or require them or not.
To not give the call would leave a crew open to accusations of operating outside their SOPs ( Yes some companies are THAT pedantic), regardless of what the crew may individually think.
Now I can fully understand how this may drive an ATCO insane after a while - but the answer is to put it in writing to the CAA who should request the particular company(s) to review their SOP in compliance with the CAP 413, or if the operator is registered outside the UK will write to the national authority of registration of that carrier.
Getting short with the crew over the RT helps no-one
To not give the call would leave a crew open to accusations of operating outside their SOPs ( Yes some companies are THAT pedantic), regardless of what the crew may individually think.
Now I can fully understand how this may drive an ATCO insane after a while - but the answer is to put it in writing to the CAA who should request the particular company(s) to review their SOP in compliance with the CAP 413, or if the operator is registered outside the UK will write to the national authority of registration of that carrier.
Getting short with the crew over the RT helps no-one
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I haven't been to work for a few days, so I don't have the materials to check at hand... but don't the notes for many, if not all, UK SIDs include the exact details required for the initial call to Departure? I know the GLA and EDI plates do...
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CarltonBrown
It's the same for all SIDS from London TMA airfields. Clearly states what to include. Doesn't seem to do much use though. Apart from the regulars who get it pretty much spot on each time, it's quite frightening how many don't seem able to read the instructions....
My girlfriend's the same though.....
It's the same for all SIDS from London TMA airfields. Clearly states what to include. Doesn't seem to do much use though. Apart from the regulars who get it pretty much spot on each time, it's quite frightening how many don't seem able to read the instructions....
My girlfriend's the same though.....
