Another fine piece of journalism (CX IFES)
Usual disclaimers apply!
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Usually not a problem keeping it running if it becomes stable enough, just don't touch the thrust lever.
Although in this case I believe the EGT decided to approach the 1K deg mark.
Are all the CX engines to 'T' standard? We certainly have a lot of the original cored motors with the 2c HPT blade and they are fine, tough as old boots, and take all sorts of damage, the only weakness (if you could call it that) being the shroud interlocks. The 211 always did have a reasonable EGT margin that didn't deteriorate much over it's service life.
From what I remember the limit of 2500 cyc stemmed from the original 2b blade.
Although in this case I believe the EGT decided to approach the 1K deg mark.
Are all the CX engines to 'T' standard? We certainly have a lot of the original cored motors with the 2c HPT blade and they are fine, tough as old boots, and take all sorts of damage, the only weakness (if you could call it that) being the shroud interlocks. The 211 always did have a reasonable EGT margin that didn't deteriorate much over it's service life.
From what I remember the limit of 2500 cyc stemmed from the original 2b blade.
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Lompasa,
When an HPT blade gets fed up and decides to leave it has 2 ways out.
One is to get to hell out of Dodge and go though the case ( "an uncontained failure")
The other is to carefully wend its way rearward keeping out of the way of several dozen angry blades all snapping at its bum.
Which of these is no problem to carry on with ?
When an HPT blade gets fed up and decides to leave it has 2 ways out.
One is to get to hell out of Dodge and go though the case ( "an uncontained failure")
The other is to carefully wend its way rearward keeping out of the way of several dozen angry blades all snapping at its bum.
Which of these is no problem to carry on with ?
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The 524G/H enignes must have improved dramtically since I was testing overhauled units, and they were only giving 10 degrees of margin off the cell. This was never fully understood by RR, a lot of work went ino the rework techniques of the HPC and HPT, though it appears the engine didn't like so much repair work. The -T core gave an instant guaranteed 55 degree boost to your EGT margin off the cell and excellent margin retention. But, the cost of $1.8 million per donk led to a few airlines having a sharp intake of breath. A quick glance in their wallets meant deciding not to go the whole way for the -T. Horses for courses as they would say in Epsom.
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Brgd's
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This thread isn't so much the usual journo bashing as pax bashing. The reporter reported the comments made.
If a passenger sees flames coming from an engine in flight they have every right to be terrified. Can you blame them for thinking their life is about to end, and getting a little excited in their retelling of the story?
To suggest they should have sat back and thought calmy to themselves "...how interesting an entirely normal in flight incident being dealt with professionaly..." is frankly laughable.
As for the American newspaper article - American organisations usually employ articulate individuals who speak openly to the press and help control the flow of information - in this case I suspect the views of a traumatised pax was about the extent of hard information the reporter got.
vp
If a passenger sees flames coming from an engine in flight they have every right to be terrified. Can you blame them for thinking their life is about to end, and getting a little excited in their retelling of the story?
To suggest they should have sat back and thought calmy to themselves "...how interesting an entirely normal in flight incident being dealt with professionaly..." is frankly laughable.
As for the American newspaper article - American organisations usually employ articulate individuals who speak openly to the press and help control the flow of information - in this case I suspect the views of a traumatised pax was about the extent of hard information the reporter got.
vp
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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Read an article in the Saturday edition of the Daily Express about the incident which mentioned the following words at least once if not more: Death plunge, terror flight, exploding fireball, terrified passengers, etc., etc.
You only have to read the post in this thread by Pat Malone and you will immediately understand the mentality and understanding of the author of the piece. It sells newspapers and unless you can influence the editors of these rags to do something about it then you might as well poke yourself in the arm with a sharp stick for all the good it will do!
Only read the Express because I found it behind my seat on a long flight
You only have to read the post in this thread by Pat Malone and you will immediately understand the mentality and understanding of the author of the piece. It sells newspapers and unless you can influence the editors of these rags to do something about it then you might as well poke yourself in the arm with a sharp stick for all the good it will do!
Only read the Express because I found it behind my seat on a long flight
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IFSDs
These 211 certainly can run after losing an HPT blade, but there really is no point. It would be running extremely hot so increased risk of rather large fire and would also be produing less thrust. Further damage to an engine could also result, possible producing an uncontained blade failure. This could be seriuos if the offending blade severed something important, eg a double firwire loop. The QRH will also give instruction to shut down after engine exceedances.
2 IFDS in a few days is rather unfortunate and there was another in about June but this could be more to do with engine life rather than maintenance problems. You can go years without one then - bang two at once. Average at CX into LHR is about two a year, probably a little higher than some operators but less than others. E.G BA maintain all engines on the 744 to ETOPS standard where CX does not (as no 767s).
At the end of the day its all down to money, the more you spend on maintenance and overhaul the less IFSDs you will have (theoretically at least).
As for Jounalism, I think there are a few journo's out there who link stories together - its what they are paid for I suppose- and end up with 2+2=5. CX safety has been in the news a little of late but at least we seem to have been a little more open about it all this time round, this is a postive out of all this !!
2 IFDS in a few days is rather unfortunate and there was another in about June but this could be more to do with engine life rather than maintenance problems. You can go years without one then - bang two at once. Average at CX into LHR is about two a year, probably a little higher than some operators but less than others. E.G BA maintain all engines on the 744 to ETOPS standard where CX does not (as no 767s).
At the end of the day its all down to money, the more you spend on maintenance and overhaul the less IFSDs you will have (theoretically at least).
As for Jounalism, I think there are a few journo's out there who link stories together - its what they are paid for I suppose- and end up with 2+2=5. CX safety has been in the news a little of late but at least we seem to have been a little more open about it all this time round, this is a postive out of all this !!
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Journalistic standards
I notice that this piece was in Flight for 26 November:-
That was, of course, 26 November 1954, about the Comet enquiry (reprinted this week). Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
The great [inquiry] is now over. It would be inappropriate to discuss those matters upon which the Court is to pronounce. We would not attempt to try to assess the extent or accuracy of the information which members of the public in this and other countries may have gathered. While some "popular" newspapers have tried conscientiously but hopelessly to interpret the daily official transcript in 250-500 words, others have shamelessly picked this or that isolated remark out of context and endeavoured to build it up into a sensation. If the newspaper stores for the public are all the "benefit" that results from holding such an inquiry in public, it would have been better not to have done so. Aviation has gained little and suffered much.
Just curious how many hours to the (chosen by Captain) diversion airport if they had been over the Atlantic Ocean in an A-330 or 777 in the winter with an engine shutdown?
Can Cathay Captains (on any aircraft) choose a "suitable" airport (runway length/braking action/wind direction/weather/terrain, in a 'stable' country) within 2-3 hours flight time if considered necessary for safety of flight or is the decision mostly based on maintenance (logistics) economics, with policies determined by managers who have no solid flight experience? Incidentally, the CEO of American Airlines owns and flies a twin-recip. plane on his days off.
And how about Captains' decisions at Singapore and Korean Airlines, also being major 'Pacific Rim' airlines?
Can Cathay Captains (on any aircraft) choose a "suitable" airport (runway length/braking action/wind direction/weather/terrain, in a 'stable' country) within 2-3 hours flight time if considered necessary for safety of flight or is the decision mostly based on maintenance (logistics) economics, with policies determined by managers who have no solid flight experience? Incidentally, the CEO of American Airlines owns and flies a twin-recip. plane on his days off.
And how about Captains' decisions at Singapore and Korean Airlines, also being major 'Pacific Rim' airlines?
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Dunno about now, Ignition Override, but when I was at SQ, the standard instruction from the head shed was 'nearest suitable, period' (four engine type) but I fully expect that if I dumped it in, say, Wake Island, they would not have been pleased...at all.
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Regarding Pat Malone's comments:
What makes it worse is the current attitude of most pilots who refuse to believe that there are some good journos out there who do try to get the story right.
For example: Everyone seems prepared to knock David Learmont who at least tries to tell things how they are, and yet they refuse to help the press in any way themselves.
I've been reported on by both types of journalist: The ones who create a situation that verges on lies and the others who report so accurately that I subsequently carried their name with me in case I ever had a really big story to tell.
...The problem is in telling one from the other at first contact: Why don't we start a Pprune award for the ones that at least try? Or perhaps we could publish their names so that the profession could reward those who give us a fair crack of the whip.
What makes it worse is the current attitude of most pilots who refuse to believe that there are some good journos out there who do try to get the story right.
For example: Everyone seems prepared to knock David Learmont who at least tries to tell things how they are, and yet they refuse to help the press in any way themselves.
I've been reported on by both types of journalist: The ones who create a situation that verges on lies and the others who report so accurately that I subsequently carried their name with me in case I ever had a really big story to tell.
...The problem is in telling one from the other at first contact: Why don't we start a Pprune award for the ones that at least try? Or perhaps we could publish their names so that the profession could reward those who give us a fair crack of the whip.
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As usual 411a is years out of date. In SIA these days days it is left to the Captains discretion. Having read of this incident from other web sights not just this one, I am inclined to have adopted exactley the course of action carried out by this crew. There was no emergency the only discussionn is wether to have landed maybe FRA or returned to LHR . Moscow with limited maint. hotac is last option under the circumstances.
