747 engine falls off
Just for those interested, During climb the engine did seize after The Big Bang !!! it then departed the aircraft, as it should.
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posted 22nd October 2004 05:31
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A-Floor, I know very little about 747s, but an FO I've flown with flew Connie Kallita Learjets for five years, and a guy who retired from Uncle Sam flew Kallita DC-8s just before he came here. It took all three crewmembers and a mechanic one night to convince Connie face-to-face that the elevator hydraulic pressure was inop; D. told me that the plane would never have rotated. If your Learjet engine flamed out at Connie, you descended and restarted it. If you declared an emergency-you were fired.
Great story, but the DC8 has no hydraulics for the elevator, all cable.
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A-Floor, I know very little about 747s, but an FO I've flown with flew Connie Kallita Learjets for five years, and a guy who retired from Uncle Sam flew Kallita DC-8s just before he came here. It took all three crewmembers and a mechanic one night to convince Connie face-to-face that the elevator hydraulic pressure was inop; D. told me that the plane would never have rotated. If your Learjet engine flamed out at Connie, you descended and restarted it. If you declared an emergency-you were fired.
Great story, but the DC8 has no hydraulics for the elevator, all cable.
Oh lets just say a collegue operating that flight said thats what happened
The events to date have been associated with bangs followed by loss of N1. The historical reports of pilots throughout the total industry associate loss of N1 with rotor seizure, after all that is what they have been taught in the simulator. However in all such cases there was no inflight rotor seizure and the loss of N1 was found to be associate4d with loss of signal for any variety of reasons including rub out of the pickup by a damaged engine.
This is not to say that the rotor may not have been found seized upon landing, however the windmilling forces forces alone have keept it turning in the air.
There is still another possibility and that is that a catastrophic rupture of the engine just ahead of the rear mount that carries the torque loads would result in the engine pivoting about the front ball mount possibly pitching the inlet up into the airstream while the rotors in the engine are spooling down from the failure in the back. This has not happened yet due to an engine caused problem with the exception of a B747 pranging an engine on the runway during landing and leaving the engine on the runway with just the rear mount case still hanging from the pylon.
However, a couple of events with each of the engine models has come very close to severing this load path in the past.
I'll await the DFDR whether it shows a significant rate of drop of N1 or just a loss of signal.
BTW if anybody can confirm what's left on the pylon etc. it will put this event better in context with past history.
Last edited by lomapaseo; 24th Oct 2004 at 01:30.
How bout this...After the Bang, all engine parameters went to Zero, except EGT and, the thrust lever jammed at climb power setting.
If the EGT was seen to rise it kind of suggests that the engine remained on the wing long enough to display.
Now the investigators should be looking for bits and pieces of anything left behind on the aircraft for their clues even without yet recovering the engine.
I would imagine that the investigation has learned lots more by now on the hows and whys.
I'll be looking for any photos that might show somthing interesting if they turn up on the net
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No word of someone finding a rather large piece of debris in their backyard or pool? I'm amazed no one has mentioned the risk of having one of these puppies fall from the sky and ruin your day.
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A- FLOOR,
Regarding why you don't see other carriers with bits missing from them.(and other things going wrong)
They do happen, and often.I was in LUX about 1 year ago and as CargoLux pushed back one main gear wheel seperated on the axle,no one's fault im sure just a floor in the material the axle was made from.Just imagine if that had fallen off over the town ? God help anyone hit by that ammount of weight !.
Lufthansa- just wrote off a 743 in the hangar by not following up the locking rings on the main jacks,they pivoted the whole aircraft on the tail steady and the nose, went to lunch and "wow , why has the fuselage got an 18 inch joggle in it ?)
CAL,- nose gear retraction in LGG.
Air Canada,- tipped the aircraft on it's arse.
You just need where to look !
Cheers .
Regarding why you don't see other carriers with bits missing from them.(and other things going wrong)
They do happen, and often.I was in LUX about 1 year ago and as CargoLux pushed back one main gear wheel seperated on the axle,no one's fault im sure just a floor in the material the axle was made from.Just imagine if that had fallen off over the town ? God help anyone hit by that ammount of weight !.
Lufthansa- just wrote off a 743 in the hangar by not following up the locking rings on the main jacks,they pivoted the whole aircraft on the tail steady and the nose, went to lunch and "wow , why has the fuselage got an 18 inch joggle in it ?)
CAL,- nose gear retraction in LGG.
Air Canada,- tipped the aircraft on it's arse.
You just need where to look !
Cheers .
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Cargolux - valid point
Lufthansa - That was a 742, and nothing "fell off"... just a mistake when jacking up the aircraft.
CAL @ LHR - Just an unexpected retraction of the nosegear that could happen on any other brand new 744... again nothing "fell off". The whole story complete with pictures is on PPRuNe.
Air Canada - The combi aircraft "tipped on its arse" through improper loading... once again nothing "fell off"
Still.... 1 out of 4 ain't bad
Lufthansa - That was a 742, and nothing "fell off"... just a mistake when jacking up the aircraft.
CAL @ LHR - Just an unexpected retraction of the nosegear that could happen on any other brand new 744... again nothing "fell off". The whole story complete with pictures is on PPRuNe.
Air Canada - The combi aircraft "tipped on its arse" through improper loading... once again nothing "fell off"
Still.... 1 out of 4 ain't bad
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This is an excerpt from one of the crewmembers, however, it has been edited to remove names and correct some mis-spellings.
Took off
from ORD to JFK from 9R heading east, thru FL180 climbing to FL290 we
experienced a large bang and a sudden yaw to the left. Noticing all engine
parameters to zero, except EGT stuck at 825, and the #1 thrust lever stuck in
climb thrust position, the obvious was an engine loss. F/O was flying and
stabilized the aircraft and we continued the climb. Before accomplishing any
checklists, we assessed the situation, looked out the window and saw that #1
not only quit, it left the airframe! We then talked to ATC and confessed to an
emergency. #1 hyd's were gone, #1 main fuel tank was intact as far as we could
tell, and Capt and Engineer did the checklists.We finished the checklists and landed
without incident. Capt and F/O did an awesome job of handling the airplane
and the only thing we commented on collectively, was how long it took for the
flaps to extend using the alternate system. 0 to 5 took 10 mins. 5 to 25 took
2 mins. Company has been
supportive, and we're in EHAM enjoying a day off. We have our own assumption,
F/O pumped the throttle one too many times, flooded it out, and it backfired
thru the carbuerater...probably low lead fuel...fly safe!
Took off
from ORD to JFK from 9R heading east, thru FL180 climbing to FL290 we
experienced a large bang and a sudden yaw to the left. Noticing all engine
parameters to zero, except EGT stuck at 825, and the #1 thrust lever stuck in
climb thrust position, the obvious was an engine loss. F/O was flying and
stabilized the aircraft and we continued the climb. Before accomplishing any
checklists, we assessed the situation, looked out the window and saw that #1
not only quit, it left the airframe! We then talked to ATC and confessed to an
emergency. #1 hyd's were gone, #1 main fuel tank was intact as far as we could
tell, and Capt and Engineer did the checklists.We finished the checklists and landed
without incident. Capt and F/O did an awesome job of handling the airplane
and the only thing we commented on collectively, was how long it took for the
flaps to extend using the alternate system. 0 to 5 took 10 mins. 5 to 25 took
2 mins. Company has been
supportive, and we're in EHAM enjoying a day off. We have our own assumption,
F/O pumped the throttle one too many times, flooded it out, and it backfired
thru the carbuerater...probably low lead fuel...fly safe!
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There you have it... If more of these engines fell off into the LAKE or Ocean, maybe we would have LESS engine failures to deal with in the future. 
Last edited by fesmokie; 27th Oct 2004 at 15:50.
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Now we wait for the headlines to roll in:
CREW OF DEATHRIDE FLIGHT SAYS PILOT 'FLOODED' ENGINE. DISASTER NARROWLY AVERTED.
Fuel contamination suspected. Witness on ground states, "He sounded like he took unleaded by mistake". Numerous reports of "knocks and pings" before major air disaster. Vicar's wife terrorized, again.
CREW OF DEATHRIDE FLIGHT SAYS PILOT 'FLOODED' ENGINE. DISASTER NARROWLY AVERTED.
Fuel contamination suspected. Witness on ground states, "He sounded like he took unleaded by mistake". Numerous reports of "knocks and pings" before major air disaster. Vicar's wife terrorized, again.
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We have our own assumption,
F/O pumped the throttle one too many times, flooded it out, and it backfired
thru the carbuerater...probably low lead fuel...fly safe!
F/O pumped the throttle one too many times, flooded it out, and it backfired
thru the carbuerater...probably low lead fuel...fly safe!
Sure hope they enjoyed their EHAM layover
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MESSAGE NUMBER:1-RYR7F]
THE BOEING COMPANY
Service Request Data :
SERVICE REQUEST ID : 1-46910471
PRIORITY : Routine
ACCOUNT : BOEING CORRESPONDENCE (MOM)
DUE DATE : 05-Nov-2004 05:55:16 AM
PROJECT :
PRODUCT TYPE : Airplane
PRODUCT LINE : 747
PRODUCT : 747-100
ATA : 0240-00
PART NUMBER :
REFERENCES:
SUBJECT: Kalitta Air 747-100F N709CK Engine Separation Event over Lake Michigan - 20 Oct 2004
DESCRIPTION:
The following is sent to all customers, field service bases, regional directors, customer resident representatives and other selected organizations. The following message contains confidential commercial information and is intended only for the internal use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and not for disclosure to others.
On 20 October 2004, the #1 engine of a 747-100 airplane separated during flight. The crew diverted to a nearby airport and landed safely. The NTSB is investigating this event with assistance from the FAA, Pratt & Whitney, and Boeing. The NTSB has released a preliminary report on this incident which provides further details and is repeated below.
QUOTE
On October 20, 2004, about 2029 central daylight time, a Boeing 747-132, N709CK, operated by Kalitta Air, LLC, as flight 825, received substantial damage following a separation and loss of the number one engine while climbing through about 16,000 feet mean sea level over Lake Michigan. The 14 CFR Part 121 non-scheduled international cargo flight was operating on an instrument rules flight plan. Night visual meteorological conditions were reported at the time of the accident. The two pilots, one flight engineer, and two flight mechanics were uninjured. The flight departed from Chicago O'Hare International Airport, Chicago, Illinois, at 2010, and was en route to John F. Kennedy International Airport, New York, New York, when it diverted to Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport (DTW), Detroit, Michigan, where it landed without further incident.
The flight crew did not report any abnormal conditions prior to the engine separation. Following the engine separation, the flight crew diverted to DTW where a landing was accomplished with normal operation of the leading edge devices and trailing edge flaps.
On-scene inspection of the airplane revealed engine separation at the forward engine mount bulkhead and at the aft engine mount. The aft engine mount was intact with a section of the engine turbine exhaust case still attached. The pylon remained attached to the wing, and the pylon alignment marks were in alignment. The area around the forward engine mount bulkhead was deformed in the outboard and upward direction.
Radar data estimates indicate that the engine is in an area of Lake Michigan that is approximately 240 feet deep.
UNQUOTE
The NTSB preliminary report can be found on the web at:
https://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp...I05FA011&rpt=p
Inspection of the pylon-to-wing fuse pins revealed that they were undamaged. The investigation team agreed that it is necessary to locate and recover the missing engine in order to determine the cause of the separation. Recovery of the engine is being coordinated by the NTSB. The airplane is a 747-132, variable RA635, line number 159, serial number 20247. It was delivered to another operator in 1971 and was converted in 1995 to a freighter with main deck side cargo door. The airplane has accumulated 93,548 flight hours and 26,924 cycles as last reported to Boeing.
Boeing has no recommended operator action at this time. If the investigation shows any specific actions are recommended or required, operators will be notified.
R. S. Breuhaus, Chief Engineer, Air Safety Investigation
BOEING, STA DIR AS M.S. 67-PR
THE BOEING COMPANY
Service Request Data :
SERVICE REQUEST ID : 1-46910471
PRIORITY : Routine
ACCOUNT : BOEING CORRESPONDENCE (MOM)
DUE DATE : 05-Nov-2004 05:55:16 AM
PROJECT :
PRODUCT TYPE : Airplane
PRODUCT LINE : 747
PRODUCT : 747-100
ATA : 0240-00
PART NUMBER :
REFERENCES:
SUBJECT: Kalitta Air 747-100F N709CK Engine Separation Event over Lake Michigan - 20 Oct 2004
DESCRIPTION:
The following is sent to all customers, field service bases, regional directors, customer resident representatives and other selected organizations. The following message contains confidential commercial information and is intended only for the internal use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and not for disclosure to others.
On 20 October 2004, the #1 engine of a 747-100 airplane separated during flight. The crew diverted to a nearby airport and landed safely. The NTSB is investigating this event with assistance from the FAA, Pratt & Whitney, and Boeing. The NTSB has released a preliminary report on this incident which provides further details and is repeated below.
QUOTE
On October 20, 2004, about 2029 central daylight time, a Boeing 747-132, N709CK, operated by Kalitta Air, LLC, as flight 825, received substantial damage following a separation and loss of the number one engine while climbing through about 16,000 feet mean sea level over Lake Michigan. The 14 CFR Part 121 non-scheduled international cargo flight was operating on an instrument rules flight plan. Night visual meteorological conditions were reported at the time of the accident. The two pilots, one flight engineer, and two flight mechanics were uninjured. The flight departed from Chicago O'Hare International Airport, Chicago, Illinois, at 2010, and was en route to John F. Kennedy International Airport, New York, New York, when it diverted to Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport (DTW), Detroit, Michigan, where it landed without further incident.
The flight crew did not report any abnormal conditions prior to the engine separation. Following the engine separation, the flight crew diverted to DTW where a landing was accomplished with normal operation of the leading edge devices and trailing edge flaps.
On-scene inspection of the airplane revealed engine separation at the forward engine mount bulkhead and at the aft engine mount. The aft engine mount was intact with a section of the engine turbine exhaust case still attached. The pylon remained attached to the wing, and the pylon alignment marks were in alignment. The area around the forward engine mount bulkhead was deformed in the outboard and upward direction.
Radar data estimates indicate that the engine is in an area of Lake Michigan that is approximately 240 feet deep.
UNQUOTE
The NTSB preliminary report can be found on the web at:
https://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp...I05FA011&rpt=p
Inspection of the pylon-to-wing fuse pins revealed that they were undamaged. The investigation team agreed that it is necessary to locate and recover the missing engine in order to determine the cause of the separation. Recovery of the engine is being coordinated by the NTSB. The airplane is a 747-132, variable RA635, line number 159, serial number 20247. It was delivered to another operator in 1971 and was converted in 1995 to a freighter with main deck side cargo door. The airplane has accumulated 93,548 flight hours and 26,924 cycles as last reported to Boeing.
Boeing has no recommended operator action at this time. If the investigation shows any specific actions are recommended or required, operators will be notified.
R. S. Breuhaus, Chief Engineer, Air Safety Investigation
BOEING, STA DIR AS M.S. 67-PR
They're all late build 300s with the exception of the 200F which was one of the last Classics built. By Classic standards, they're all youngsters. There are -400s flying which are older.
