Ryanair pilots form new union - Join !!(Merged)
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point taken aloue.but i am a bit puzzled how a pilot body,who a month ago was willing to join any union and even talk about striking.now are "afraid" to subscribe to their own website.i have seen it before and i hope it was the last spineless show within ryanair that i am witness to.people have to get off their ass once and for all.
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on the other hand they may as always expect somebody else to do the dirty work for them,as has happened in the past and then they leave them hang out to dry.i remain unconvinced that this is not the case.
let's see if i am proven wrong.is it going to be more whispers in the corner of the dublin crew room.
let's see if i am proven wrong.is it going to be more whispers in the corner of the dublin crew room.
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Join!!
I must join Aloue and the Grim One in urging all those to please sign up to the site...
Without sounding like some crazed advertiser...
WHAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN IS EVERYONES RESPONSIBILITY
You could choose to avoid the issue and think youll be spared any detriment...
or put trust in a company that has historically abused such motions of good will...
or believe you will get extra credit for being someones 'teacher's pet'...
you would be gravely mistaken too
and, ofcourse, you could think you wouldnt have to vote, that everyone else would vote for you anyway
and that is being plain naieve
think about it...in a company full of people worried about their own backs isnt everyone else thinking that too?
Voting with your feet is fine, just ask yourself if you are personally ready to put yourself through all that stress and possible financial hardship, especially at this time of year, and when everyone else is, again, thinking and doing the same
There is no easy way around this...This is a tough time for everybody and there is only one reason why it has come to this...
Now there is a good solution to hold against this and win a bit of our dignity back
Lets show our solidarity, our conviction, and our pride
You have nothing to lose by signing up to the site ...
you can drop you membership after the first free trial period if you really like
Anomynousity is assured
The level of contact with those that can help us non-stop and beneficial
think about it
Without sounding like some crazed advertiser...
WHAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN IS EVERYONES RESPONSIBILITY
You could choose to avoid the issue and think youll be spared any detriment...
or put trust in a company that has historically abused such motions of good will...
or believe you will get extra credit for being someones 'teacher's pet'...
you would be gravely mistaken too
and, ofcourse, you could think you wouldnt have to vote, that everyone else would vote for you anyway
and that is being plain naieve
think about it...in a company full of people worried about their own backs isnt everyone else thinking that too?
Voting with your feet is fine, just ask yourself if you are personally ready to put yourself through all that stress and possible financial hardship, especially at this time of year, and when everyone else is, again, thinking and doing the same
There is no easy way around this...This is a tough time for everybody and there is only one reason why it has come to this...
Now there is a good solution to hold against this and win a bit of our dignity back
Lets show our solidarity, our conviction, and our pride
You have nothing to lose by signing up to the site ...
you can drop you membership after the first free trial period if you really like
Anomynousity is assured
The level of contact with those that can help us non-stop and beneficial
think about it
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batty
It would take about 1 minute to do the research to answer your own question.
grim repa
Never give out union membership numbers (in any organisation). It always pays to keep the management guessing - or at least working hard for their info.
It would take about 1 minute to do the research to answer your own question.
grim repa
Never give out union membership numbers (in any organisation). It always pays to keep the management guessing - or at least working hard for their info.
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Be Careful Out There
GrimR - as someone who is Dublin based and has just received a letter from IALPA about various important issues, I think you have got it absolutely wrong. In the letter we were congratulated on having kept a united front and not leaking information over the summer. (I think we may all be as surprised at this as IALPA was!). If the letter is to be believed management do not really have a good grasp of what is going on in some areas and their little "individual chats" are no longer yielding information.
We need self-discipline. You have provided information above which management can and will abuse, and in whatever way they can.
Please, please ... let nobody give out specific information, especially from the new REPA site. Comments and generalities are fine, specifics, percentages and numbers are not fine.
We need self-discipline. You have provided information above which management can and will abuse, and in whatever way they can.
Please, please ... let nobody give out specific information, especially from the new REPA site. Comments and generalities are fine, specifics, percentages and numbers are not fine.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Talk is Cheap, and it can be seriously misleading
Batty, answers to all the issues you raised above have been given by BALPA and IALPA. Some are even given on a link on the public page of REPA at www.repaweb.org . Minimal effort would provide you with all the answers needed and help you avoid speculating in directions that are just plain wrong.
Before posting something which is so misleading - just see the post which immediately follows yours for where it is could lead - why don't you check out the facts for yourself:
* You remain a member of your current association.
* If you are a member of BALPA, IALPA, etc. you get free membership of REPA.
* REPA is not a splitting up, but a coming together, an umbrella group. All Ryanair pilots, whatever their base, status (trainees, contractor), etc. get access to a common, secure, forum.
* As is made clear on the site, ECA is also funding the effort with IALPA and BALPA and the implication seems to be that it is ECA funding that is providing 6 months free membership to those who are not members of an association at present.
The story on the site seems to be that what REPA is to become will remain in the hands of those who join. You can speculate about that, but the correct place to do your speculation is on the REPA site (if you are a Ryanair pilot).
So is REPA really an ill-considered idea? I think it is a blindingly obvious first step to take. Congratulations to all concerned because we now have some hope.
Before posting something which is so misleading - just see the post which immediately follows yours for where it is could lead - why don't you check out the facts for yourself:
* You remain a member of your current association.
* If you are a member of BALPA, IALPA, etc. you get free membership of REPA.
* REPA is not a splitting up, but a coming together, an umbrella group. All Ryanair pilots, whatever their base, status (trainees, contractor), etc. get access to a common, secure, forum.
* As is made clear on the site, ECA is also funding the effort with IALPA and BALPA and the implication seems to be that it is ECA funding that is providing 6 months free membership to those who are not members of an association at present.
The story on the site seems to be that what REPA is to become will remain in the hands of those who join. You can speculate about that, but the correct place to do your speculation is on the REPA site (if you are a Ryanair pilot).
So is REPA really an ill-considered idea? I think it is a blindingly obvious first step to take. Congratulations to all concerned because we now have some hope.
Last edited by delwy; 24th Oct 2004 at 23:12.
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delwy
sorry to have to just skip over your fire here, but the link is actually www.repaweb.org
dont worry, its easy to confuse those two facets of the organisation
on all other points, spot on...
This isnt about further division / complication / elaboration
this is giving us what we wanted and were worried about...
a Union for US and taillored to OUR needs with the expertise and support of the pilot bodies that have been helping us so far
and if it helps any without letting any cats out of the bag, the discussions there are proving very fruitful
sceptics, please, visit the site and see for yourself....
still not sure, visit www.balpa.org and read the press releases there if you like
sorry to have to just skip over your fire here, but the link is actually www.repaweb.org
dont worry, its easy to confuse those two facets of the organisation
on all other points, spot on...
This isnt about further division / complication / elaboration
this is giving us what we wanted and were worried about...
a Union for US and taillored to OUR needs with the expertise and support of the pilot bodies that have been helping us so far
and if it helps any without letting any cats out of the bag, the discussions there are proving very fruitful
sceptics, please, visit the site and see for yourself....
still not sure, visit www.balpa.org and read the press releases there if you like
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Thanks Chickens. I've edited my post and will be eternally in your debt. Should you ever have any difficulty in crossing the road, I can offer you some reasons....
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Hi guys ,
Could somebody please tell me what or who REPA is?
I thought the very problem that ,we employees, had with Ryanair was the lack of discussion and consultation.
I am a pilot with Ryanair and am frustrated with the fact that such an organisation has surfaced, purports to represent me,but has never consulted with me . Sounds familiar!
Such an organisation will have a very definite affect on all our careers .Please: Who are you and please consult with us first.
Could somebody please tell me what or who REPA is?
I thought the very problem that ,we employees, had with Ryanair was the lack of discussion and consultation.
I am a pilot with Ryanair and am frustrated with the fact that such an organisation has surfaced, purports to represent me,but has never consulted with me . Sounds familiar!
Such an organisation will have a very definite affect on all our careers .Please: Who are you and please consult with us first.
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REPA
Rednex
I must apologise, through all our talk we have indeed ommitted the true nature of REPA
REPA is NOT a recognised nor repressentative pilot's organisation within Ryanair...
it is rather the opportunity for much greater organisation and communication between BALPA, IALPA, and the ECA (European Cockpit Association) and the pilot body to exist, as well as providing the chance for us pilots to have PRIVATE dialogue amongst us about this issue
Trully the site also has much more to offer besides just learning exactly what we are up against. But I must urge you to sign up to the site and see for yourself
and remember, if your not happy after the first 6 months, sign off and itll still be for free
and delwy, dont worry about it...but I will take you up on that offer!
I must apologise, through all our talk we have indeed ommitted the true nature of REPA
REPA is NOT a recognised nor repressentative pilot's organisation within Ryanair...
it is rather the opportunity for much greater organisation and communication between BALPA, IALPA, and the ECA (European Cockpit Association) and the pilot body to exist, as well as providing the chance for us pilots to have PRIVATE dialogue amongst us about this issue
Trully the site also has much more to offer besides just learning exactly what we are up against. But I must urge you to sign up to the site and see for yourself
and remember, if your not happy after the first 6 months, sign off and itll still be for free
and delwy, dont worry about it...but I will take you up on that offer!
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Dan Air
Can we maybe get a revision of the Dan Air events?
I find that what Ryanair has done, and threatens to do, might differentiate this situation from what happened at Dan Air...
and therefore also effect the possible outcomes...
but I may be wrong
I find that what Ryanair has done, and threatens to do, might differentiate this situation from what happened at Dan Air...
and therefore also effect the possible outcomes...
but I may be wrong
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Good grief, I can't believe people still won't join BALPA because of Dan Air. That's ten plus years ago. Granted I wasn't in aviation then but things have changed a lot since and BALPA is no longer the British Airways Air Pilots Association. There are now more independent airlines' members than BA.
Do yourselves a favour and join!
Do yourselves a favour and join!
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DO join, but expect no miracles.
srjumbo:
Although I am a UK based BALPA member, I see in every day life that BALPA does not seem to do much for pilots based outside the UK.
A small example: currently all Orly based crew are in a grey zone. ORY is no longer a "temporary base" but they are now a "secondary base" which means that EZY does not have to pay them a temporary base allowance, but it gives ORY crew no security whatsoever. Besides the obvious cost factor, another reason in cutting the temporary base allowance was (according rumours) some (jealous?) complaints from UK based pilots that ORY based crew were earning more money because of the temporary base allowance.
It sort of puts us into a simular Ryanair (divide and conquer) situation with a company basing people left and right all over Europe, without caring too much about the consequenses.
BALPA knows about these issues, but simply does not seem to care or is incapable of coming to their defense. They just seem to follow managementīs way of thinking and accept the newly invented "secondary base" definition.
I donīt want to hijack this thread to discuss EZY issues, but I just want to use the above example to warn Ryanair pilot not to get their hopes up too much about REPA/BALPA coming to their rescue.
Nevertheless I would still recommend all Ryanair pilots to join REPA because it certainly beats the alternative which is MOL.
Although I am a UK based BALPA member, I see in every day life that BALPA does not seem to do much for pilots based outside the UK.
A small example: currently all Orly based crew are in a grey zone. ORY is no longer a "temporary base" but they are now a "secondary base" which means that EZY does not have to pay them a temporary base allowance, but it gives ORY crew no security whatsoever. Besides the obvious cost factor, another reason in cutting the temporary base allowance was (according rumours) some (jealous?) complaints from UK based pilots that ORY based crew were earning more money because of the temporary base allowance.
It sort of puts us into a simular Ryanair (divide and conquer) situation with a company basing people left and right all over Europe, without caring too much about the consequenses.
BALPA knows about these issues, but simply does not seem to care or is incapable of coming to their defense. They just seem to follow managementīs way of thinking and accept the newly invented "secondary base" definition.
I donīt want to hijack this thread to discuss EZY issues, but I just want to use the above example to warn Ryanair pilot not to get their hopes up too much about REPA/BALPA coming to their rescue.
Nevertheless I would still recommend all Ryanair pilots to join REPA because it certainly beats the alternative which is MOL.
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For chickenscanfly and others who wonder about the history of DanAir and Balpa.
DanAir was about to go into voluntary liquidation in the aftermath of debts owed to it by the failed tour group Intasun and the airline Air Europe (DanAir serviced AE aircraft and flew 30% of Intasun passengers) and the recession/fuel crisis of the first Gulf War. British Airways wanted to prevent another scheduled competitor at LGW and was able to absorb about 10 DAN 737 300/400 into their LGW scheduled services, but didn't want the 30 other aircraft that DAN operated.
DanAir (now BA Euro Ops LGW under BA management ie under Mike Street, now famous for presiding over the recent BA summer troubles at LHR) decided to keep only existing DA 737 -3/400 pilots, despite a long standing signed agreement on how to carry out any redundancies that may be required at DAN. The long standing agreement was for first in/lastout as per seniority order.
BA management made a mess off their industrial relations, it was their fault. Unfortunately Balpa decided that a softly/softly approach to management was required, despite the obvious remedy which was immediate legal action in the industrial courts for breach of redundancy contract under the rules for the takeover of the workforce of other companies.
Eventually, after about a year Balpa did take legal action (but only due to severe pressure from members), but by then it was too late - the wrong pilots were out of a job. The case was settled out of court on the steps of the court on the day of the hearing and all redundant pilots in the union received the maximum penalty that a court could have awarded. They didn't keep their jobs - it was three years after the event by then.
The most senior DAN pilot (with 30 years service) ended up being made redundant, and the most junior pilot ( who had been with DAN for less than 1 year) went into BA and is still there now as a mainline BA captain.
Nobody who is ex DAN trusts BA management to deal with individuals fairly (neither do BA crews either !), and many with long memories wonder if Balpa is capable of handling really big issues that strike at the heart of what should be a fair and just society.
I like to think that things will be better next time, because more than half of Balpa members are from independent airlines now.
The RyanAir issues are not really the same as the DAN problem. Balpa is not perfect, but it is great to have strenth in numbers when dealing with the likes of MOL. Having a relationship with Irish Unoins etc makes it even better. If you get 90% membership, MOL will have to at least listen.
DanAir was about to go into voluntary liquidation in the aftermath of debts owed to it by the failed tour group Intasun and the airline Air Europe (DanAir serviced AE aircraft and flew 30% of Intasun passengers) and the recession/fuel crisis of the first Gulf War. British Airways wanted to prevent another scheduled competitor at LGW and was able to absorb about 10 DAN 737 300/400 into their LGW scheduled services, but didn't want the 30 other aircraft that DAN operated.
DanAir (now BA Euro Ops LGW under BA management ie under Mike Street, now famous for presiding over the recent BA summer troubles at LHR) decided to keep only existing DA 737 -3/400 pilots, despite a long standing signed agreement on how to carry out any redundancies that may be required at DAN. The long standing agreement was for first in/lastout as per seniority order.
BA management made a mess off their industrial relations, it was their fault. Unfortunately Balpa decided that a softly/softly approach to management was required, despite the obvious remedy which was immediate legal action in the industrial courts for breach of redundancy contract under the rules for the takeover of the workforce of other companies.
Eventually, after about a year Balpa did take legal action (but only due to severe pressure from members), but by then it was too late - the wrong pilots were out of a job. The case was settled out of court on the steps of the court on the day of the hearing and all redundant pilots in the union received the maximum penalty that a court could have awarded. They didn't keep their jobs - it was three years after the event by then.
The most senior DAN pilot (with 30 years service) ended up being made redundant, and the most junior pilot ( who had been with DAN for less than 1 year) went into BA and is still there now as a mainline BA captain.
Nobody who is ex DAN trusts BA management to deal with individuals fairly (neither do BA crews either !), and many with long memories wonder if Balpa is capable of handling really big issues that strike at the heart of what should be a fair and just society.
I like to think that things will be better next time, because more than half of Balpa members are from independent airlines now.
The RyanAir issues are not really the same as the DAN problem. Balpa is not perfect, but it is great to have strenth in numbers when dealing with the likes of MOL. Having a relationship with Irish Unoins etc makes it even better. If you get 90% membership, MOL will have to at least listen.
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srjumbo, I can understand your need to move things on. Yes the Dan Air debacle was 12 years ago now. It would indeed be nice if it could finally be laid to rest. Unfortunately BALPA will not let sleeping dogs lie. Only 18 months ago they imposed a pay deal on those ex Dans who were stil in EOG now SHAG whereby their pay point was reduced from a max of pay point 22 to a new pay point of 16 (where SHAG is capped). Certainly we all got a pay rise but what did and does hurt is the fact that for over ten years we had been paying into a pension fund at pay oint 22 only to finally be awarded a pension based on pay point 16 + 5%. No consultation just take it and shut up was their attitude. Sure BALPA is getting bigger but not neccessarily better they will and do always hit the minority of its members for as they would put it "for the greater good of the majority". They are not interested in moral issues only in protecting their income from your subscriptions. The Majority must always be satisfied since they will hide behind the fact that their union is a democratic union.
By all means join them and good luck to you but remember the History or it will turn and bite you later on.
By all means join them and good luck to you but remember the History or it will turn and bite you later on.