Alitalia Double Up!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: short final
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The same rules for everybody shouldn't actually be a big deal as all operators are under the eyes of JAA and following the JAR way of live anyway.........
But then the Authoroties of each Country must give away some controlforce, and I suggest this could be the big struggle
But then the Authoroties of each Country must give away some controlforce, and I suggest this could be the big struggle
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: on my way
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
epsilon,
-first of all i don't want pilots to be paid less but maybe the other way around
-second i cannot tell you the numbers because of privacy issues(some people here know where i work...i'm sure you understand)
-third i'm not a slave pilot but a pilot that works for a private airline like many of us and who knows what efficiency means.
-forth i just try to get deep into an issue where i also feel involved since part of my taxes fill the pockets of a company in an unefficient way and if you don't mind i feel that tax payers money should be spent better.
-first of all i don't want pilots to be paid less but maybe the other way around
-second i cannot tell you the numbers because of privacy issues(some people here know where i work...i'm sure you understand)
-third i'm not a slave pilot but a pilot that works for a private airline like many of us and who knows what efficiency means.
-forth i just try to get deep into an issue where i also feel involved since part of my taxes fill the pockets of a company in an unefficient way and if you don't mind i feel that tax payers money should be spent better.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will the displaced or redundant Alitalia mainline pilots flow down to Alitalia Express positions or will they hit the street? Is there an agreement between Alitalia and Alitalia Express?
Which Italian airlines would likely pick up furloughed Alitalia pilots - Air One or Volare?
Which Italian airlines would likely pick up furloughed Alitalia pilots - Air One or Volare?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Italy
Age: 61
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Alitalia Double Up!
I am in AZ from 1997 and never logged less than 650 p.y., it's just another false company report to the media in a clime of dispute between management and unions...
jumbone
jumbone
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: on my way
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
epsilon,
once again you are talking to a pilot who IS on the pilots' side of the fence (how couldn't i be??).
my point is ,as you correctly said, the waste of public money..and huge amounts of public cash have already been lost in AZ.
We all know that not everyone in AZ was a money waster but you cannot argue the fact that up to today AZ has been an airline run like a medieval lobby where sons of captains used to get in and "normal" citizens had all access doors shut ( i personnally know a cpt. with 2 sons FO's in AZ),767 pilots getting extra cash for not having crew beds on board (does more money make you feel less tired?),crews that don't know what working on week ends means (people calling in sick for years on sat. and sun.),MD11 guys sitting at home for 1 year getting paid regularly even if their type was phased out,limusine pick ups for old contract holders....and more could be said.
it would all be ok dear epsilon if the tax payers didn't have to pay for all this and correct me if i'm wrong but in typical italian style even the innocent AZ pilots had to come to terms with all of the above when everything was just about to go down the drain.
I don't wish you go out of business,i just wish (as you said) that things could work as in civilized countries.
once again you are talking to a pilot who IS on the pilots' side of the fence (how couldn't i be??).
my point is ,as you correctly said, the waste of public money..and huge amounts of public cash have already been lost in AZ.
We all know that not everyone in AZ was a money waster but you cannot argue the fact that up to today AZ has been an airline run like a medieval lobby where sons of captains used to get in and "normal" citizens had all access doors shut ( i personnally know a cpt. with 2 sons FO's in AZ),767 pilots getting extra cash for not having crew beds on board (does more money make you feel less tired?),crews that don't know what working on week ends means (people calling in sick for years on sat. and sun.),MD11 guys sitting at home for 1 year getting paid regularly even if their type was phased out,limusine pick ups for old contract holders....and more could be said.
it would all be ok dear epsilon if the tax payers didn't have to pay for all this and correct me if i'm wrong but in typical italian style even the innocent AZ pilots had to come to terms with all of the above when everything was just about to go down the drain.
I don't wish you go out of business,i just wish (as you said) that things could work as in civilized countries.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: on my way
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I FORD,
the 400 million euros are just to survive until february 2005 (more public money) and don't mean at all that AZ will be safe and sound with that amount (in fact it is a consequence of the new deal just signed that in itself doesn't mean things are gonna be great from now on either), AZ domestic competitors have to fight an uneven battle where they have to stay afloat without tax payers money (and some of them managed to take 11% of AZ pax this year alone despite the uneven competition) meaning that the italian market has never been fully open but still spoiled by politics connected to AZ (just look at the MXP-LIN issue) moreover a couple of AZ competitors carry about 6 million pax/year compared with AZ's 24million meaning they have 1/4 of AZ customers with 1/7 of AZ's fleet and of course 1/13 of the workforce...these are pure mathematics which by definition never lie.
the 400 million euros are just to survive until february 2005 (more public money) and don't mean at all that AZ will be safe and sound with that amount (in fact it is a consequence of the new deal just signed that in itself doesn't mean things are gonna be great from now on either), AZ domestic competitors have to fight an uneven battle where they have to stay afloat without tax payers money (and some of them managed to take 11% of AZ pax this year alone despite the uneven competition) meaning that the italian market has never been fully open but still spoiled by politics connected to AZ (just look at the MXP-LIN issue) moreover a couple of AZ competitors carry about 6 million pax/year compared with AZ's 24million meaning they have 1/4 of AZ customers with 1/7 of AZ's fleet and of course 1/13 of the workforce...these are pure mathematics which by definition never lie.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: in the kitchen
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am in AZ from 1997 and never logged less than 650 p.y., it's just another false company report to the media in a clime of dispute between management and unions...
I-Ford made it clear (but maybe only on the Italian Forum where I gave up...) that those 450 hrs mentioned by the media are an average that includes the MD-11 and 747 pilots sitting unwilling at home at almost 0 hrs.
the 400 million euros are just to survive until february 2005 (more public money)
mad
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: on my way
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
epsilon,
1-so now AZ cpt.'s are gonna push their sons into meridiana?So it is definitely a medieval lobby....
2-so it's the management fault if MD11 guys are sitting at home being paid and the 747's have been phased out while Atlas guys fly the very same machine for AZ cargo?where are the conscious AZ pilot unions in all this?
3-AF is not a good example of fair practices since it's still state owned and France itself is a very protectionist country;LH on the other hand is a very good example of how a state owned company can restructure itself and even win market shares,not with state intervention but with good services and wise moves (like joining the star alliance at an early stage or buying into little jewels like AirDolomiti).
4-true some private airlines in italy (like elsewhere as well) are not in good shape...but this is the free market and AZ would be long time gone if it was to adhere to market rules instead of politics.talking about wet leases,it's a normal and civilized practice (AZ did it with Anset and still does it with Atlas) and in many cases it's much wiser to wet lease then to buy aircraft especially if you have to launch new routes where your aircraft is too big for the initial task, then if your market study was right you might be able to drop the wet leases and put up your own machines.Talking about connections between managemets and politics you are right...this is italy...and AZ is the biggest example having always been a huge pot full of voters and of positions to be filled according to had won the elections.Of course the right way to look for a sane inspiration is to look abroad...and while some private airlines have begun this process of looking behind the fence already a while ago AZ had to wait until it was about to collapse.
IFORD,
1-AZ had to give up slots because it used to be a monopolist and this is forbidden by EU law.
2-I fly for an airline that competes with AZ on many routes and i can assure you that the SLF are very happy to have a choice when they buy a ticket...and i can also tell you that they don't care much about the flag on the tail when it comes to punctuality,courtesy and service...maybe you were referring to football games when talking about the italian flag......
3-If you have problems with your handler with GPU's and stuff like that it is definitely not competiton's nor the free market's fault.
4-talking about people leaving a company to set up other ones i can only mention Emirates which was mainly set up by former BA guys...and i don't feel like condemning them for what they did...maybe you do?
5-Struggling competition?well maybe some are...but others are not,and actually they are doing pretty good (meridiana is doing fine and even renewing their fleet with airbus planes,Air One keeps adding aircraft and hiring pilots,AirDolomiti is switching to jets and keeps winning customer satisfaction and quality awards) and even if they don't have golden age privileges they are not payed peanuts at all.
Maddog,
the italian state is the warrant of those 400mln, meaning that if AZ is not able to pay it back they will have to come out from the usual pockets.....
1-so now AZ cpt.'s are gonna push their sons into meridiana?So it is definitely a medieval lobby....
2-so it's the management fault if MD11 guys are sitting at home being paid and the 747's have been phased out while Atlas guys fly the very same machine for AZ cargo?where are the conscious AZ pilot unions in all this?
3-AF is not a good example of fair practices since it's still state owned and France itself is a very protectionist country;LH on the other hand is a very good example of how a state owned company can restructure itself and even win market shares,not with state intervention but with good services and wise moves (like joining the star alliance at an early stage or buying into little jewels like AirDolomiti).
4-true some private airlines in italy (like elsewhere as well) are not in good shape...but this is the free market and AZ would be long time gone if it was to adhere to market rules instead of politics.talking about wet leases,it's a normal and civilized practice (AZ did it with Anset and still does it with Atlas) and in many cases it's much wiser to wet lease then to buy aircraft especially if you have to launch new routes where your aircraft is too big for the initial task, then if your market study was right you might be able to drop the wet leases and put up your own machines.Talking about connections between managemets and politics you are right...this is italy...and AZ is the biggest example having always been a huge pot full of voters and of positions to be filled according to had won the elections.Of course the right way to look for a sane inspiration is to look abroad...and while some private airlines have begun this process of looking behind the fence already a while ago AZ had to wait until it was about to collapse.
IFORD,
1-AZ had to give up slots because it used to be a monopolist and this is forbidden by EU law.
2-I fly for an airline that competes with AZ on many routes and i can assure you that the SLF are very happy to have a choice when they buy a ticket...and i can also tell you that they don't care much about the flag on the tail when it comes to punctuality,courtesy and service...maybe you were referring to football games when talking about the italian flag......
3-If you have problems with your handler with GPU's and stuff like that it is definitely not competiton's nor the free market's fault.
4-talking about people leaving a company to set up other ones i can only mention Emirates which was mainly set up by former BA guys...and i don't feel like condemning them for what they did...maybe you do?
5-Struggling competition?well maybe some are...but others are not,and actually they are doing pretty good (meridiana is doing fine and even renewing their fleet with airbus planes,Air One keeps adding aircraft and hiring pilots,AirDolomiti is switching to jets and keeps winning customer satisfaction and quality awards) and even if they don't have golden age privileges they are not payed peanuts at all.
Maddog,
the italian state is the warrant of those 400mln, meaning that if AZ is not able to pay it back they will have to come out from the usual pockets.....
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: on my way
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I FORD,
don't know to which competitor you are referring to when you talk about meriging into the "new" AZ, there's only one which is in such a bad shape to consider such an option...but i don't see it as a wise merger...putting together 2 struggling players with huge debts doesn't seem a good move to me and i have the feeling that this is the very last time the tax payer is willing to pay for the dinosaur...unless the government changes and we go back to the old days...in which case i will migrate towards greener and more civilized pastures.
The fact that junior pilots make half of what an old purser makes tells us in brief the story of AZ...a complete nonsense which surely isn't anyonelse's fault but AZ's.
don't know to which competitor you are referring to when you talk about meriging into the "new" AZ, there's only one which is in such a bad shape to consider such an option...but i don't see it as a wise merger...putting together 2 struggling players with huge debts doesn't seem a good move to me and i have the feeling that this is the very last time the tax payer is willing to pay for the dinosaur...unless the government changes and we go back to the old days...in which case i will migrate towards greener and more civilized pastures.
The fact that junior pilots make half of what an old purser makes tells us in brief the story of AZ...a complete nonsense which surely isn't anyonelse's fault but AZ's.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: in the kitchen
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The last rumours are about the creation of a stronger national airline merging into AZ some of the struggling "competitors" (at taxpayer's expense).
mad
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: ? ? ?
Posts: 2,281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
don't forget that the "private" airline to which you are refering to has already recived 80 millions just in march and now they are asking for another 90
Henry
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: .
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alitalia pilots are on strike blocking the street
Big difference... they look for money in the market, not in my pocket
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: on my way
Posts: 1,648
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said epsilon...but let's not make te tax payer the one to be f@#ed every time someone mismanages something.
By the way ,the CEO has been talking about selecting a european partner in the past couple of days and it seemed that AF wasn't good enough anymore and he was eyeing LH as a better choice...maybe they should realize that they are not in the position to choose but maybe of being chosen!if they are lucky....
By the way ,the CEO has been talking about selecting a european partner in the past couple of days and it seemed that AF wasn't good enough anymore and he was eyeing LH as a better choice...maybe they should realize that they are not in the position to choose but maybe of being chosen!if they are lucky....
Last edited by tarjet fixated; 24th Sep 2004 at 14:27.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: ? ? ?
Posts: 2,281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
let's not make pilots responsible for errors done by management and shareholders
But I have (and many others have) a question :
where were pilots and pilots' unions in the past years ??? they cannot wake up today and declare "their fault" after years and years sharing decision with management.
See you
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Far Away
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Henry 8,has a point.
Why did the AZ pilots union,allow the "suits",to end up in this situation.?
Brought a bank person pax,back from London last week,had a chat in galley,and word is,AZ will have to merge,with another Euro carrier,but smaller,and leaner.It will survive.
EU membership,pivotal,to survival,unlike Swissair.
AZ overdid it,for too long,ignoring the signs,all around,in terms of productivity,etc etc etc.Great whilst it lasted.
NOT the fault of the pilots,but perhaps,the union,now should reflect,on agreeing with management for so long.
Choppy waters ahead,good luck to all,NOT their fault.
The suits,will emerge,unblemished,as usual.
Ciao.QB
Why did the AZ pilots union,allow the "suits",to end up in this situation.?
Brought a bank person pax,back from London last week,had a chat in galley,and word is,AZ will have to merge,with another Euro carrier,but smaller,and leaner.It will survive.
EU membership,pivotal,to survival,unlike Swissair.
AZ overdid it,for too long,ignoring the signs,all around,in terms of productivity,etc etc etc.Great whilst it lasted.
NOT the fault of the pilots,but perhaps,the union,now should reflect,on agreeing with management for so long.
Choppy waters ahead,good luck to all,NOT their fault.
The suits,will emerge,unblemished,as usual.
Ciao.QB
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 512
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks like the taxpayers wont be better off anytime soon
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/bdb09c5e-0e...00e2511c8.html
What a surprise NOT
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/bdb09c5e-0e...00e2511c8.html
What a surprise NOT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: .
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
link to an article about new alitalia pilots contract. the article is in italian but the table is selfexplaining: http://www.ilsole24ore.com/fc?cmd=ar...rticolo&back=0
"pilota neoassunto" = young first officer
"anni" = years
"comandante" = captain
"stipendio" = basic pay
"indennità volo" = flight pay
"totale lordo" = total pay before taxes (33%)
fligth pay is calculated always for maximum monthly hours.
you can also download the contract here
"pilota neoassunto" = young first officer
"anni" = years
"comandante" = captain
"stipendio" = basic pay
"indennità volo" = flight pay
"totale lordo" = total pay before taxes (33%)
fligth pay is calculated always for maximum monthly hours.
you can also download the contract here
