SAS pilots on brief strike to attend union meeting
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Bad-Man,
The plan has never been, from either the BU pilots or SAS Management that the BU pilots were to merge into the SAS pilots lists. There is a new company starting up in Norway called SAS Braathens! It will consist of the former employees of Scandinavian Airlines Norway and Braathens (both companies will be shot down). I know you oppose this but that is what the owners have decided weather You or I like it or not. Therefore equall rights in that new company. I do not claim anything from your old lists at all!
The plan has never been, from either the BU pilots or SAS Management that the BU pilots were to merge into the SAS pilots lists. There is a new company starting up in Norway called SAS Braathens! It will consist of the former employees of Scandinavian Airlines Norway and Braathens (both companies will be shot down). I know you oppose this but that is what the owners have decided weather You or I like it or not. Therefore equall rights in that new company. I do not claim anything from your old lists at all!
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Please, also bear in mind, that
1. After the takeover by the SAS, BU was allocated almost all the most profitable routes (ex-SAS) in Norway while the SAS pilot redundancy got worse and the SAS resources (and earning potential) were directed to more competitive routes.
2. BU operations were obviosly heavily sponsored by the SAS mother organization (internal invoicing/lack of same) during a lengthy period of time.
3. After the latest adjustements in the SAS flightdeck collective agreement (03 + 04) the SAS f/d is actually more productive now. This is a fact, ladies and gentlemen!
I wonder, which other potential buyer could have contributed to the "profitability" of BU in the same scale (see 1 + 2 above).
I hope that HC will be just as disciplined a company soldier, buying all the management indoctrination, also when the winds one day will turn an he'll be on the line.
Cheers
OBOGS
1. After the takeover by the SAS, BU was allocated almost all the most profitable routes (ex-SAS) in Norway while the SAS pilot redundancy got worse and the SAS resources (and earning potential) were directed to more competitive routes.
2. BU operations were obviosly heavily sponsored by the SAS mother organization (internal invoicing/lack of same) during a lengthy period of time.
3. After the latest adjustements in the SAS flightdeck collective agreement (03 + 04) the SAS f/d is actually more productive now. This is a fact, ladies and gentlemen!
I wonder, which other potential buyer could have contributed to the "profitability" of BU in the same scale (see 1 + 2 above).
I hope that HC will be just as disciplined a company soldier, buying all the management indoctrination, also when the winds one day will turn an he'll be on the line.
Cheers
OBOGS
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Flathatter,
"Shot down" was mayby a little harsh, but never the less they will be closed down.
OBOGS,
Both your points 1 and 2 especially number 2 are nothing but rumours made up by the SK pilots unions. You know that.
When it comes to number three you are right! If this had been done when Braathens did it you would of coarse have had a lot more pilots beeing redundent but then again the company would have been in a lot better shape!
Lets start working together so that managment can´t play us against each other. But either way the company needs to make money otherwise senioritylists will be the least of our worries!
"Shot down" was mayby a little harsh, but never the less they will be closed down.
OBOGS,
Both your points 1 and 2 especially number 2 are nothing but rumours made up by the SK pilots unions. You know that.
When it comes to number three you are right! If this had been done when Braathens did it you would of coarse have had a lot more pilots beeing redundent but then again the company would have been in a lot better shape!
Lets start working together so that managment can´t play us against each other. But either way the company needs to make money otherwise senioritylists will be the least of our worries!
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Payscale use the term “Its a dog eat dog business” and that is certainly the case here. The Braathens staff were probably too naive for today’s tough business climate. They believed in the promises of job security given by SAS Corporate management. The number of Braathens employees were cut from about 4500 to 1900.
This was supposed to cut costs and many asked why the general operating costs that SAS charged Braathens increased by about 38% (1stQ2002 - 737 mio / 1stQ2003 - 1013 mio)
What is interesting with this merger is to see how disciplined most of the pilots have been in both camps. Most of the SAS & BU pilots seem to wisely avoid the use of unfriendly language. This has not been the case during most previous mergers, where hostile language caused unintentional pain and conflicts far beyond each individual’s goal. It will be very interesting to see how this will evolve. Will it be left to the elected union representatives who have the actual facts or can we bring out the popcorn and watch aggressive discussion based on a mix of unconfirmed facts and rumours here on PPRuNe?
This was supposed to cut costs and many asked why the general operating costs that SAS charged Braathens increased by about 38% (1stQ2002 - 737 mio / 1stQ2003 - 1013 mio)
What is interesting with this merger is to see how disciplined most of the pilots have been in both camps. Most of the SAS & BU pilots seem to wisely avoid the use of unfriendly language. This has not been the case during most previous mergers, where hostile language caused unintentional pain and conflicts far beyond each individual’s goal. It will be very interesting to see how this will evolve. Will it be left to the elected union representatives who have the actual facts or can we bring out the popcorn and watch aggressive discussion based on a mix of unconfirmed facts and rumours here on PPRuNe?
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HC
As far as I am informed, it is not a question of a new company with former SAS and former BU pilots. The SAS guyes are employed by the SAS Group, HQ placed in sweden. And so are you.
You will want a good position on the SAS Group seniority list. If indeed the SAS groups was spilt and you were fighting for a position on the norweigan list it would be an entirely norweigan afffair. However the SAS pilots will still remain SAS pilots.
As far as I am informed, it is not a question of a new company with former SAS and former BU pilots. The SAS guyes are employed by the SAS Group, HQ placed in sweden. And so are you.
You will want a good position on the SAS Group seniority list. If indeed the SAS groups was spilt and you were fighting for a position on the norweigan list it would be an entirely norweigan afffair. However the SAS pilots will still remain SAS pilots.
Last edited by Payscale; 2nd Sep 2004 at 05:23.
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Payscale,
I guess we´re not on the same page then. SAS Braathens is a new company with it´s own AOC and HQ in Oslo! It will consist of former Scandinavian Airlines Norway and Braathens employees. It will get 26 737´s from SAS and 26 737´s from Braathens.
Why would you loose any seniority? If the plan was that we were to be on the same list (kombilisten) I don´t see you loosing any seniority anyway. Nobody is going to take any years away from you. You would be on a longer list with a few more people ahead of you and even more guys behind you. You´d probably make capt. faster then you will on the list you are today. But since we´re not going to be on the same list: not to worry!
I guess we´re not on the same page then. SAS Braathens is a new company with it´s own AOC and HQ in Oslo! It will consist of former Scandinavian Airlines Norway and Braathens employees. It will get 26 737´s from SAS and 26 737´s from Braathens.
Why would you loose any seniority? If the plan was that we were to be on the same list (kombilisten) I don´t see you loosing any seniority anyway. Nobody is going to take any years away from you. You would be on a longer list with a few more people ahead of you and even more guys behind you. You´d probably make capt. faster then you will on the list you are today. But since we´re not going to be on the same list: not to worry!
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Capt H.
Just quick correction regarding your previous post:
BU did not "overinvest" in MalmöAviation.
MalmöAviation was making a good profit (some 200.000.000 skr) which was an upward trend dating back some years.
ONE(!!!) year after the BU takeover it was loosing almost 150 million!!! They turned a great company into a disaster in one single year with many idiotic internal changes, disregarding the Malmöaviation-expertise on their own market. (eg. implementing the best & back concept and many, many other changes)
That is NOT what brought on the disastrous economic situation BU found themselves in.
BU could not in the end stand the competition on the norwegian domestic market. Of course, later on when they started flying without the SK competition, they made money... ANYONE would do that ANYWERE without competition! It's called monopolizing the market! Easy peacy!
Contemplating what is fair in a situation such as this, one must consider who has lost out in the previous situation.
In this case MANY SK pilots were sacrificed when SAS aquired BU, and SAVED BU pilots from loosing their jobs. Therefore logic implies that the SK pilots should AT LEAST not get stuck with the shorter straw AGAIN!!!???
Kind rgds
KADS
Just quick correction regarding your previous post:
BU did not "overinvest" in MalmöAviation.
MalmöAviation was making a good profit (some 200.000.000 skr) which was an upward trend dating back some years.
ONE(!!!) year after the BU takeover it was loosing almost 150 million!!! They turned a great company into a disaster in one single year with many idiotic internal changes, disregarding the Malmöaviation-expertise on their own market. (eg. implementing the best & back concept and many, many other changes)
That is NOT what brought on the disastrous economic situation BU found themselves in.
BU could not in the end stand the competition on the norwegian domestic market. Of course, later on when they started flying without the SK competition, they made money... ANYONE would do that ANYWERE without competition! It's called monopolizing the market! Easy peacy!
Contemplating what is fair in a situation such as this, one must consider who has lost out in the previous situation.
In this case MANY SK pilots were sacrificed when SAS aquired BU, and SAVED BU pilots from loosing their jobs. Therefore logic implies that the SK pilots should AT LEAST not get stuck with the shorter straw AGAIN!!!???
Kind rgds
KADS
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Interesting and good point KADS - Malmoe Aviation was a victim of Braathens corporate strategy.
Media and financial analytics have explained how Braathens “over invested” in Malmoe aviation. This does not proof that it was the employees fault or that Malmoe aviation could not have survived with a better strategy. It merely states that Braathens paid too much in 1998. The price was 600 mio. A large portion of this was goodwill which had to be written off.
SAS demanded that Malmoe Aviation should be sold before SAS would take over Braathens. The Braathens-familiy would have to buy Malmoe aviation for 1 krone if they where unable to sell it. This involved guarantees of all Malmoe Aviation’s obligations and finical commitments of 1,4 billion.
Media and financial analytics have explained how Braathens “over invested” in Malmoe aviation. This does not proof that it was the employees fault or that Malmoe aviation could not have survived with a better strategy. It merely states that Braathens paid too much in 1998. The price was 600 mio. A large portion of this was goodwill which had to be written off.
SAS demanded that Malmoe Aviation should be sold before SAS would take over Braathens. The Braathens-familiy would have to buy Malmoe aviation for 1 krone if they where unable to sell it. This involved guarantees of all Malmoe Aviation’s obligations and finical commitments of 1,4 billion.
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Bad-Man and KADS,
What on earth does this have to do with the merger of SK Norway pilots and Braathens pilots?
But since you brought it up.
Yes BU managments actions in the swedish market were a disaster. Although you need to bring all the facts to the table dude! Most of these losses were dew to something called Transwede. A company that in all it´s history had never made a profitt on it´s domestic operations. It should never have been bought and mixed into Malmø Aviation. But all this belongs to an other thred KADS. Start one about it if you want!
What on earth does this have to do with the merger of SK Norway pilots and Braathens pilots?
But since you brought it up.
Yes BU managments actions in the swedish market were a disaster. Although you need to bring all the facts to the table dude! Most of these losses were dew to something called Transwede. A company that in all it´s history had never made a profitt on it´s domestic operations. It should never have been bought and mixed into Malmø Aviation. But all this belongs to an other thred KADS. Start one about it if you want!
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Easy HC, don’t forget who started this thread in the first place…
All the Norwegian carriers were loosing money at the time and the question was who could “out-bleed” the other. The Braathens family made a responsible decision, maybe not the best thing for themselves. Another approach would have been to remove the assets and run the company into bankruptcy and avoid all commitments.
Braathens had cash equity of 559 mio. at the time plus the aircrafts they owned along with other assets. Additional loans could have extended this even further. Many airlines have been running for years on loans. This allowed the option of a long battle against SAS.
I think that both Braathens and SAS pilots benefited from the merger. A long battle would most likely have left a winning but broke and vulnerable SAS. The coordination of route structures benefited both companies since no one could make money with all the parallel half empty flights at the time.
All the Norwegian carriers were loosing money at the time and the question was who could “out-bleed” the other. The Braathens family made a responsible decision, maybe not the best thing for themselves. Another approach would have been to remove the assets and run the company into bankruptcy and avoid all commitments.
Braathens had cash equity of 559 mio. at the time plus the aircrafts they owned along with other assets. Additional loans could have extended this even further. Many airlines have been running for years on loans. This allowed the option of a long battle against SAS.
I think that both Braathens and SAS pilots benefited from the merger. A long battle would most likely have left a winning but broke and vulnerable SAS. The coordination of route structures benefited both companies since no one could make money with all the parallel half empty flights at the time.
Last edited by Capt. Haddock; 2nd Sep 2004 at 09:19.
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Capt H -
You are well informed but I would like to add some info to that which you informed us of:
Yes, Braathens paid a good deal of money but it was an act of desperation, brought on by it's bigger brother. At the time, global alliances were quickly forming and KLM and Braathens were working very closely. When BU aquired MalmöAviation (TF), SAS was only two days away from buying TF. The whole deal was just about to be signed when KLM got a hold of the news and urged BU to quickly purchase TF ahead of SAS.
Secondly, SAS did not demand that MalmöAviation was to be released before SAS aquired BU, but rather the swedish competition laws did not allow SK to own TF, as it would give SK a monopoly on the swedish domestic market, ie. it was a prerequisite for the SK takeover of BU.
This was not valid however at the earlier state, when SK was interested in TF because at that point Transwede was still operating independentely and had some of the swedish domestic market share, albeit a small part...
As you all can see it is a quite complicated and intriguing history that brought us to where we all are now.
And as for HC asking me to keep to my own topic, I can inform you that as for the relevancy to that topic I can reveal this:
When BU aquired MalmöAviation and later (with great incompetancy!!!) merged Transwede and MalmoAviation in to one single entity, then called "Braathens MalmöAviation" (very imaginative!
) there were talks held between the TF and BU unions on how to eventually merge seniority lists and work on a single union deal.
At that point in time, the TF pilots were approached as being 2nd class pilots by BU union, and the BU union constantly reminded TF pilots of "who it was who aquired who". In the end no such deal was ever struck due to the "arrogancy" of the BU union.
For some reason the BU pilots now seems to have forgotten their own attitude towards the smaller company at that time and now calls for equal rights on all points!
One should remember one's history....
HC - I hope this ties my posts back to the original topic enough to please you.
Regards,
KADS
You are well informed but I would like to add some info to that which you informed us of:
Yes, Braathens paid a good deal of money but it was an act of desperation, brought on by it's bigger brother. At the time, global alliances were quickly forming and KLM and Braathens were working very closely. When BU aquired MalmöAviation (TF), SAS was only two days away from buying TF. The whole deal was just about to be signed when KLM got a hold of the news and urged BU to quickly purchase TF ahead of SAS.
Secondly, SAS did not demand that MalmöAviation was to be released before SAS aquired BU, but rather the swedish competition laws did not allow SK to own TF, as it would give SK a monopoly on the swedish domestic market, ie. it was a prerequisite for the SK takeover of BU.
This was not valid however at the earlier state, when SK was interested in TF because at that point Transwede was still operating independentely and had some of the swedish domestic market share, albeit a small part...
As you all can see it is a quite complicated and intriguing history that brought us to where we all are now.
And as for HC asking me to keep to my own topic, I can inform you that as for the relevancy to that topic I can reveal this:
When BU aquired MalmöAviation and later (with great incompetancy!!!) merged Transwede and MalmoAviation in to one single entity, then called "Braathens MalmöAviation" (very imaginative!
) there were talks held between the TF and BU unions on how to eventually merge seniority lists and work on a single union deal.At that point in time, the TF pilots were approached as being 2nd class pilots by BU union, and the BU union constantly reminded TF pilots of "who it was who aquired who". In the end no such deal was ever struck due to the "arrogancy" of the BU union.
For some reason the BU pilots now seems to have forgotten their own attitude towards the smaller company at that time and now calls for equal rights on all points!
One should remember one's history....
HC - I hope this ties my posts back to the original topic enough to please you.
Regards,
KADS
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Yes KADS it is funny how the cards can change ….. it is best to play fair, the past may hunt you down. One day an airline is eating another only to be taken over by an even bigger at a later point in time. Will it stop here or could the entire SAS eventually be swallowed by someone else?
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KADS,
I guess were back on track
I am aware that there was brief talk between the unions about a semi merger of the pilots, but this was only loose talk and managment never had any intention of merging the companies.
Som of the BU pilots looked at how SAS merged with Linjeflyg and thought it might be a way of doing it, but just as many said NO WAY. That type of "warm welcome" to furure colleagues hadn´t worked and wouldn´t! Norwegian law would have prevented it anyways and nothing became of it!
Why KADS would you want to make that same mistake again? You know as well as I that there is still a lot of bitternes amongst ex-LIN guys 12 years later. Maybe you should look at doing something about their situation instead of making the same mistake again. Doing a wrong thing twice does not make it right! Then again we´re not going to be on that list since we´ll be working for a new company called SAS Braathens and you shouldn´t have to worry about us
I guess were back on track
I am aware that there was brief talk between the unions about a semi merger of the pilots, but this was only loose talk and managment never had any intention of merging the companies.
Som of the BU pilots looked at how SAS merged with Linjeflyg and thought it might be a way of doing it, but just as many said NO WAY. That type of "warm welcome" to furure colleagues hadn´t worked and wouldn´t! Norwegian law would have prevented it anyways and nothing became of it!
Why KADS would you want to make that same mistake again? You know as well as I that there is still a lot of bitternes amongst ex-LIN guys 12 years later. Maybe you should look at doing something about their situation instead of making the same mistake again. Doing a wrong thing twice does not make it right! Then again we´re not going to be on that list since we´ll be working for a new company called SAS Braathens and you shouldn´t have to worry about us
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HC -
Just to clarify:
By your post it seems that you think that I either work for and/or am in a position to be able to make a difference in the negotiations going on.
I do not work for SAS but am an observing by-stander...
Just to clarify:
By your post it seems that you think that I either work for and/or am in a position to be able to make a difference in the negotiations going on.
I do not work for SAS but am an observing by-stander...
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People,
BU was virtually bankrupt when SAS had to buy the company. They have done nothing for for the group so far, other than cost us money. In addition our youngest pilots lost their jobs, partially because BU was bought. Not fair.
We want a fair merging of lists. With our laid off collegeaues in mind!!!
Nothing less.
Regards,
Ramrise
BU was virtually bankrupt when SAS had to buy the company. They have done nothing for for the group so far, other than cost us money. In addition our youngest pilots lost their jobs, partially because BU was bought. Not fair.
We want a fair merging of lists. With our laid off collegeaues in mind!!!
Nothing less.
Regards,
Ramrise