TAP A310 avoiding collision in AZORES
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What is it with Tercera (TER). 3 years ago a Canadian AirTransat A330 aircraft landed there (barely) with no fuel. That airport see's more action than Hilary Clinton.
Although I find her strangely attractive. (Was that out loud?)
Although I find her strangely attractive. (Was that out loud?)
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I've heard in the local news that the flight recorder from this A310 was to be sent to Airbus HQ. Another piece of information, comming from a TAP source is that the time between the first TA and the RA was 20secs.
GD&L
GD&L
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I don't know what aircraft some of you fly on but on all our longhaul aircraft the seatbelt sign is fitted with a connection to a little electrical pad on passengers seats... Whenever it goes on a large current passes through the seat making people stand up...
You can make announcements asking people to sit, go up to them and ask them to sit, stagger up the cabin through the turbulence to the queue outside the loo and tell them to sit, you still get the same morose brain dead look back -- sometimes followed by the helpless look when they fall over onto someone.
Passengers, you wanna stand up, you stand: just don't come to me when you've fallen over or peed on your feet.
You can make announcements asking people to sit, go up to them and ask them to sit, stagger up the cabin through the turbulence to the queue outside the loo and tell them to sit, you still get the same morose brain dead look back -- sometimes followed by the helpless look when they fall over onto someone.
Passengers, you wanna stand up, you stand: just don't come to me when you've fallen over or peed on your feet.
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The guys from Air Transat are still thankful to have that piece of concrete in the middle of the ocean (Terceira). Otherwise, they would still be swimming by now.
I am sure it's allways nice to have a big runway in the middle of the ocean, just in case...
I am sure it's allways nice to have a big runway in the middle of the ocean, just in case...
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Trainer too 2:
Let me introduce myself to you : I´m a A340 captain for TAP,I´ve been flying for 35 years and,of course,I´m familiar with safety procedures .Your story is simply NOT TRUE.Never heard such a thing !!
We don´t seat disabled people on emergency exits.
Our Ccrews are instructed to STOP service when moderate turbulence is encountered.
We don´t do "sightseeing tours" before landing (ever heard about circling approaches ?).
The "seat belt sign" is allways ON below 10,000´.Shortly before landing (1,000 AGL) the sign is switched off and on to alert Cc for imminent touchdown.
What else can I say?
Are you a pilot ?
Hope not.
Let me introduce myself to you : I´m a A340 captain for TAP,I´ve been flying for 35 years and,of course,I´m familiar with safety procedures .Your story is simply NOT TRUE.Never heard such a thing !!
We don´t seat disabled people on emergency exits.
Our Ccrews are instructed to STOP service when moderate turbulence is encountered.
We don´t do "sightseeing tours" before landing (ever heard about circling approaches ?).
The "seat belt sign" is allways ON below 10,000´.Shortly before landing (1,000 AGL) the sign is switched off and on to alert Cc for imminent touchdown.
What else can I say?
Are you a pilot ?
Hope not.
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If what an earlier post said is true regarding the TAP in a descend and the OMNI in a climb then it is a scenario which happens all too often everyday. Pilots should be trained how to react or pre-emp these situations.
A simple solution which is to reduce the ROD or ROC to about 1000fpm within a 1000 feet of level off as recommended by Eurocontrol.
It is part of the design of TCAS II Mod & or ACAS II which is mandatory for RVSM operations to keep the aircraft in its current trajectory for RA's which involve closing aircraft - thus the OMNI would have probably been given a "CLIMB CROSSING CLIMB" and the TAP a "DESCEND CROSSING DESCEND" command.
This could all have been avoided by the pilots in either aircraft if this was actually the scenario that occured - just avoid it by reducing closure rates. Remember TCAS works on CPA - Closest Point of Approach and timings - the faster you are and the faster you climb and descend - the TA's and RA's will be generated based on those closure rates.
I think many Terminal Areas have hotspots where these occurences happen. Some companies have made it mandatory to reduce ROC/ROD when within a 1000-1500 feet of level off as a form of risk management.
A simple solution which is to reduce the ROD or ROC to about 1000fpm within a 1000 feet of level off as recommended by Eurocontrol.
It is part of the design of TCAS II Mod & or ACAS II which is mandatory for RVSM operations to keep the aircraft in its current trajectory for RA's which involve closing aircraft - thus the OMNI would have probably been given a "CLIMB CROSSING CLIMB" and the TAP a "DESCEND CROSSING DESCEND" command.
This could all have been avoided by the pilots in either aircraft if this was actually the scenario that occured - just avoid it by reducing closure rates. Remember TCAS works on CPA - Closest Point of Approach and timings - the faster you are and the faster you climb and descend - the TA's and RA's will be generated based on those closure rates.
I think many Terminal Areas have hotspots where these occurences happen. Some companies have made it mandatory to reduce ROC/ROD when within a 1000-1500 feet of level off as a form of risk management.
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What did you see FFF? now that you've mentioned, let's have it.
I wonder why certain persons still write this kind of enigmatic $h*t, with nothing to back it up
. I'm not deffending TAP here, they certainly can do that for themselves, but what's being discussed here has nothing to do with airline SOP's, but only with pax careless behaviour inside of an aircraft, and I'll bet you'll see this kind of behaviour on almost every company around the world, mostly for the reason stated by Final 3 Greens, among others.
With that narrow-minded view FFF, you'll soon run out of "solictors" (or $$$).
GD&L
I wonder why certain persons still write this kind of enigmatic $h*t, with nothing to back it up
. I'm not deffending TAP here, they certainly can do that for themselves, but what's being discussed here has nothing to do with airline SOP's, but only with pax careless behaviour inside of an aircraft, and I'll bet you'll see this kind of behaviour on almost every company around the world, mostly for the reason stated by Final 3 Greens, among others.With that narrow-minded view FFF, you'll soon run out of "solictors" (or $$$).
GD&L
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Reported in a Portuguese weekly today and consistent with the small talk in the portuguese ATC community during last week.
Allegedly TAP was cleared down to 170 and the Omni up to 160.
Approach gave traffic info to TAP in the lines of "traffic climbing to level 160". TAP replied, "Roger F160", and descended to F160. When the controller realized the altitude bust he instructed TAP to execute a right turn. Horizontal separation was never broken. I would like to repeat the above word; Allegedly ...
Cheers
Allegedly TAP was cleared down to 170 and the Omni up to 160.
Approach gave traffic info to TAP in the lines of "traffic climbing to level 160". TAP replied, "Roger F160", and descended to F160. When the controller realized the altitude bust he instructed TAP to execute a right turn. Horizontal separation was never broken. I would like to repeat the above word; Allegedly ...
Cheers
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What did I see GDL? Just another third world airline that offers poor service and never apologises. BTW, is it SOP to get ALL the pax off the plane onto the runway without a bus in site then nearly get them run-over by passing traffic? I guess it's probably standard in LIS. 
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Well there is a big difference between long haul and short-medium-range....I wonder why people have to stay up unfastened occuping the aisle and going to the toilet 4 or 5 times in a 2-3 hrs of flying. Of course not all passengers are like that!
But they usually are absolutely not aware of the danger they are incoming in....turbolence in clear air is quite difficult to prevent, and in the unfortunately case of an emergency descent it would be a mess!!!!! even if there is a decompression slow or explosive (I tried the slow with emergency decent and peple was scared like dead! no injiuries but a lot of panic between passengers....
Tour operators and line company should stress the importance of a seat belt fasten while seating.
It can happens that even on long range, because of adverse weather, people HAD to stay seated and fastened unless a problem (i.e. going to toilet, with all precautions, possibly contacting Purser, who monitor the pax.
It is absolutely impossible to have 30 people waiting in front of toilrt in this situations (also in normal quiet flights....a n emergency is always possible!
I don't mean people should stay all flight seated expecially on long range, but they should be instructed by Companies and Tour Operator of thr risks....
I've been flying also in U.K. were no one in the whole air space of England can move up to 30,000 ft....usually English people tend to respect it cos they are more used, while Italians are a little more unconsciouss of the danger!
Let's hope people will become aware of the risk of standing up expecially in a/c like B-737 were the space is very small.
I'm confident that sooner or later passengers will realize the fact and hope they will become more disciplinated for their own safety and to permit Cabin Crew doing service in qiute short times in order to satisfy everyone!
Let's think positive and, as crew try to transmit them this well behaviour!
Sooner or later people will become aware!
Skunkie
But they usually are absolutely not aware of the danger they are incoming in....turbolence in clear air is quite difficult to prevent, and in the unfortunately case of an emergency descent it would be a mess!!!!! even if there is a decompression slow or explosive (I tried the slow with emergency decent and peple was scared like dead! no injiuries but a lot of panic between passengers....
Tour operators and line company should stress the importance of a seat belt fasten while seating.
It can happens that even on long range, because of adverse weather, people HAD to stay seated and fastened unless a problem (i.e. going to toilet, with all precautions, possibly contacting Purser, who monitor the pax.
It is absolutely impossible to have 30 people waiting in front of toilrt in this situations (also in normal quiet flights....a n emergency is always possible!
I don't mean people should stay all flight seated expecially on long range, but they should be instructed by Companies and Tour Operator of thr risks....
I've been flying also in U.K. were no one in the whole air space of England can move up to 30,000 ft....usually English people tend to respect it cos they are more used, while Italians are a little more unconsciouss of the danger!
Let's hope people will become aware of the risk of standing up expecially in a/c like B-737 were the space is very small.
I'm confident that sooner or later passengers will realize the fact and hope they will become more disciplinated for their own safety and to permit Cabin Crew doing service in qiute short times in order to satisfy everyone!
Let's think positive and, as crew try to transmit them this well behaviour!
Sooner or later people will become aware!
Skunkie
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I'm confident that sooner or later passengers will realize the fact and hope they will become more disciplinated for their own safety and to permit Cabin Crew doing service in qiute short times in order to satisfy everyone!
Im not sure about that, how long aviation has been going on? ... And still no change...
Tour operators and line company should stress the importance of a seat belt fasten while seating.
---
FFFlyer
ALL the pax off the plane onto the runway without a bus in site then nearly get them run-over by passing traffic
passengers on the runway Many go arounds then??? Must have been fun Well if this is your version of the event, then go ahead with the lawyer im sure you'll need a good one if you want to win the case
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Airway
For your edification, in many European languages, the word for runway and apron is the same and is translated as "runway."
Of course, living on your big island down under, you won't know this, since you all speak English perfectly - or should I say, you could do with a little remedial schooling.
For your edification, in many European languages, the word for runway and apron is the same and is translated as "runway."
Of course, living on your big island down under, you won't know this, since you all speak English perfectly - or should I say, you could do with a little remedial schooling.
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Final 3 Greens,
Many thanks for your valuable information, but as a speaker of 3 European Languages i have never heard of such thing
My interpretation:
Runway = A defined rectangular area on a land airport prepared for the landing and take off run of aircraft along it's length. Runways are normally numbered in relation to their magnetic direction rounded off to the nearest ten degrees.
Apron = The paved area in front of an aircraft hangar or terminal where there will be a movement of aircraft etc...
The same for the 3 languages i speak.
But thanks for your input, i shall investigate a bit more.
For your edification, in many European languages, the word for runway and apron is the same and is translated as "runway."
My interpretation:
Runway = A defined rectangular area on a land airport prepared for the landing and take off run of aircraft along it's length. Runways are normally numbered in relation to their magnetic direction rounded off to the nearest ten degrees.
Apron = The paved area in front of an aircraft hangar or terminal where there will be a movement of aircraft etc...
The same for the 3 languages i speak.
But thanks for your input, i shall investigate a bit more.
Last edited by AIRWAY; 28th Aug 2004 at 21:47.
Many of our passengers have no more common sense than many Stage Guests on the Jerry Springer show. Notice their shame at traveling by air, requiring their most casual, worst clothing to be worn.
This is one reason that a few seats on many flights sell for almost peanuts-anybody can afford them, bringing in the residual cash flow.
If they are stupid enough to not fasten their seat belts (or forget), after being reminded, then they are literally on their own at 250-500 mph through the turbulent skies.
This is one reason that a few seats on many flights sell for almost peanuts-anybody can afford them, bringing in the residual cash flow.
If they are stupid enough to not fasten their seat belts (or forget), after being reminded, then they are literally on their own at 250-500 mph through the turbulent skies.
ATC
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About TAP and about LIS/LPPT
About TAP ...
I'm not a TAP employee but only a TAP frequent flyer ...
It is a TAP standard not to sit disabled persons or children in the emergency rows ... I've seen cabin crew moving people on flights without pre-seating or people not reported as disabled in check-in.
It is a TAP standard to suspend or not to initiate service with turbulence ... I've flown FNC-LIS today, with TAP, in the cockpit, and as the seat belt signs were still on the cabin crew asked the captain for an expected time to be cleared of turbulence in order to initiate the service.
It is a TAP standard to have the seat belt signs on at 10.000 ft. Although when in the cabin we cannot be sure of the passing level/altitude, the time gap between the seat belt signs on and the expected landing time helps to calculate the passing altitude.
About LIS / LPPT
I'm not a pilot, I'm an Air Traffic Controller working at Lisboa APP and TMA
When the runway in use is 03 and CAVOK, most of the pilots request Visual Approach to Runway 03. This happens with TAP, PGA, RZO, LXR (the main portuguese airlines) pilots but also with DLH, AFR, BAW, IBE, ... There is no visual pattern oublished but due to proximity of other fields (LPCS, LPMT) altitude on base leg is normally restricted to 2000/2500 ft.
The visual approach to runway 35 is more "sightseeing" but the same restrictions apply except fo traffic joining right base leg, over the river.
Never heard about any plane allowing passengers to disembark if there was no bus waiting ... It happened some years ago when passengers were allowed to walk 15 meters from some parking positions to the main building but this was years ago ...
As soon as I get any relevant information about the incident that started this thread, I'll post it.
I'm not a TAP employee but only a TAP frequent flyer ...
It is a TAP standard not to sit disabled persons or children in the emergency rows ... I've seen cabin crew moving people on flights without pre-seating or people not reported as disabled in check-in.
It is a TAP standard to suspend or not to initiate service with turbulence ... I've flown FNC-LIS today, with TAP, in the cockpit, and as the seat belt signs were still on the cabin crew asked the captain for an expected time to be cleared of turbulence in order to initiate the service.
It is a TAP standard to have the seat belt signs on at 10.000 ft. Although when in the cabin we cannot be sure of the passing level/altitude, the time gap between the seat belt signs on and the expected landing time helps to calculate the passing altitude.
About LIS / LPPT
I'm not a pilot, I'm an Air Traffic Controller working at Lisboa APP and TMA
When the runway in use is 03 and CAVOK, most of the pilots request Visual Approach to Runway 03. This happens with TAP, PGA, RZO, LXR (the main portuguese airlines) pilots but also with DLH, AFR, BAW, IBE, ... There is no visual pattern oublished but due to proximity of other fields (LPCS, LPMT) altitude on base leg is normally restricted to 2000/2500 ft.
The visual approach to runway 35 is more "sightseeing" but the same restrictions apply except fo traffic joining right base leg, over the river.
Never heard about any plane allowing passengers to disembark if there was no bus waiting ... It happened some years ago when passengers were allowed to walk 15 meters from some parking positions to the main building but this was years ago ...
As soon as I get any relevant information about the incident that started this thread, I'll post it.
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Nary a building in sight so I don't know how it could be called the apron. In fact it was a 15 minute bus ride to the terminal adjacent to a public road.
I'll be seeing a lawyer about the smashed cases returned 4 days later, and about the compo we are now eligible for under EC legislation for DB, not TAP's SOP's. With luck it won't be us that are hurt next time they do that.
I do see the joke and understand it's all pretty hilarious when it happens to SLF.
I'll be seeing a lawyer about the smashed cases returned 4 days later, and about the compo we are now eligible for under EC legislation for DB, not TAP's SOP's. With luck it won't be us that are hurt next time they do that.
I do see the joke and understand it's all pretty hilarious when it happens to SLF.
ATC
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Incident conclusions
TAP (A310) was cleared to FL 170.
OAV (B200) was cleared to FL 160.
Both traffics have made the correct instruction readback.
When informing the TAP A310 about the opposite traffic the controller mentioned the FL 160 and the fix where the other aircraft was flying to (the same fix but opposite direction).
The A310 pilot took the final part of the traffic information as a clearance and aknoledged to the controller flying to the fix and FL 160.
TController understood it as the readback of the traffic information without having understood that the TAP thought it was a clearance for his flight.
When realizing, by radar monitoring, that the TAP was at FL 160 the controller gave instructions for both traffic to avoid collision. meanwhile the TAP received the RA ...
OAV (B200) was cleared to FL 160.
Both traffics have made the correct instruction readback.
When informing the TAP A310 about the opposite traffic the controller mentioned the FL 160 and the fix where the other aircraft was flying to (the same fix but opposite direction).
The A310 pilot took the final part of the traffic information as a clearance and aknoledged to the controller flying to the fix and FL 160.
TController understood it as the readback of the traffic information without having understood that the TAP thought it was a clearance for his flight.
When realizing, by radar monitoring, that the TAP was at FL 160 the controller gave instructions for both traffic to avoid collision. meanwhile the TAP received the RA ...
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APP RADAR , the ATC in that area is military isn't it? It's a bit odd to have MIL ATC controlling both comercial and MIL aircrafts in such a vast region; my question is: Do they have the very same procs has civil ATC? is the phraseology identical, or is there something different in procs, that could have led to this misunderstanding?
FFFlyer get a life. Not even in FRA you would get a 15 min bus ride from one side of the airport to the other. To your knowledge a 15 min bus ride in LIS would give you at least 4 roudtrip bus rides from the most distant aprons (probably VICTOR, F06/08 or B04/05) to the terminal. What you've said would be in fact hilarious if it wasn't so seriously FALSE!
GD&L
FFFlyer get a life. Not even in FRA you would get a 15 min bus ride from one side of the airport to the other. To your knowledge a 15 min bus ride in LIS would give you at least 4 roudtrip bus rides from the most distant aprons (probably VICTOR, F06/08 or B04/05) to the terminal. What you've said would be in fact hilarious if it wasn't so seriously FALSE!
GD&L
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Sounds like journalist talk, if a ride takes 5 minutes they try to add another 10 on top just to sound more dramatic. 
Anyway... Thanks to APP Radar for posting some FACTS about the incident.
Anyway... Thanks to APP Radar for posting some FACTS about the incident.