Bye Bye (BA) Bidline
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LF - why should any airline bump you up the list for your time in the services? They don't owe you anything, they have given you the job you appled for with full knowledge of the t+cs.
In my opinion, actual flying experience accounts for only half of a good skipper, the other half relates to knowledge and application of SOPs, company politics and history etc etc, i.e big picture stuff relating to the individual company itself gained solely through experience of operating for said company.
Length of employment = Experience = Seniority, funny old thing!
Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but I reckon this works for the majority.
In my opinion, actual flying experience accounts for only half of a good skipper, the other half relates to knowledge and application of SOPs, company politics and history etc etc, i.e big picture stuff relating to the individual company itself gained solely through experience of operating for said company.
Length of employment = Experience = Seniority, funny old thing!
Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but I reckon this works for the majority.
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Rookie
Your reply holds valid points, particularly the statement
The exceptions being people lke me who are a wasted resource with vast experience still in the right hand seat. This despite the best training in the world and vast experience-far in excess of many people I fly with.
LF
Your reply holds valid points, particularly the statement
Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but I reckon this works for the majority
LF
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That's just the point Lord F.....and you seem to be missing it again and again.....!
Your so called "vast experience" of flying a fast jet at 400kts at 250ft through the valleys of Wales is a million miles away from the experience required to operate (and I use that word, not "fly") a modern commercial airliner. My experience of ex-military guys I fly with find the transition of being a big fish in a small pond in the RAF to "being just another F/O" in the airline environment, very difficult. (You sound like you fall into this bracket yourself...?)
Their resource management skills with the rest of the crew is sometimes poorly lacking, and the tone in some of your posts just proves my point.
Of course, I am by no means putting all of you ex-forces guys in the same category, as I fly with some extremely competent and good blokes who are ex-mil as well. I am just saying that personally, although I'm not too bothered about it, I agree with Big Brutha's sentiments.
Your "vast experience" counts for pretty much nothing I'm afraid.... if you don't like it...don't leave the military.
Besides...I think we are drifting from the thread topic here....
Oops...!
Ok...he got me.....having stumbled upon some of Lord_flasharts previous dross, I\'ve been caught on the end of his fishing line....!
Oh well....instead of deleting the post, I\'ll see what Mr Mitty will throw at me......keeps him amused I guess. He does like a good wag...don\'t you Flashy !
Your so called "vast experience" of flying a fast jet at 400kts at 250ft through the valleys of Wales is a million miles away from the experience required to operate (and I use that word, not "fly") a modern commercial airliner. My experience of ex-military guys I fly with find the transition of being a big fish in a small pond in the RAF to "being just another F/O" in the airline environment, very difficult. (You sound like you fall into this bracket yourself...?)
Their resource management skills with the rest of the crew is sometimes poorly lacking, and the tone in some of your posts just proves my point.
Of course, I am by no means putting all of you ex-forces guys in the same category, as I fly with some extremely competent and good blokes who are ex-mil as well. I am just saying that personally, although I'm not too bothered about it, I agree with Big Brutha's sentiments.
Your "vast experience" counts for pretty much nothing I'm afraid.... if you don't like it...don't leave the military.
Besides...I think we are drifting from the thread topic here....
Oops...!
Ok...he got me.....having stumbled upon some of Lord_flasharts previous dross, I\'ve been caught on the end of his fishing line....!
Oh well....instead of deleting the post, I\'ll see what Mr Mitty will throw at me......keeps him amused I guess. He does like a good wag...don\'t you Flashy !
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Bid line will disappear over the corpses of the BA mainline.
Good thread Shaman, get a good scrap going! And for whats it's worth, I understood the sarcastic tone of your first post, and I bet that's what the fella will do!
That's a good one! I'm fairly sure you posted that in jest, as you couldn't possibly be serious! 
From my experience the sorts of ex-forces chaps mentioned herein are in the minority thankfully!
Lots of love, A once Cadet who wouldn't particularly like to lose seniority in 15 years to someone who joined the RAF a few years ago because he couldn't get a BA sponsorship (oh yes!)
Good thread Shaman, get a good scrap going! And for whats it's worth, I understood the sarcastic tone of your first post, and I bet that's what the fella will do!
I for one would like to see bidline remain but with the proviso that some or all of the service given to the Armed Forces is taken into account for seniority
From my experience the sorts of ex-forces chaps mentioned herein are in the minority thankfully!
Lots of love, A once Cadet who wouldn't particularly like to lose seniority in 15 years to someone who joined the RAF a few years ago because he couldn't get a BA sponsorship (oh yes!)
I'm an ex-mil 4-jet AT/AAR QFI with a few thousand hours and 20 years or so of world-trotting - but the idea of being locked in a broom cupboard with a stranger watching computer screens for 6 hours doesn't appeal, so my ATPL is purely used for GA instruction and I'm quite happy to let the youngsters 'enjoy' what nowadays passes for an airliner-driver's existence. No chip on the shoulder, therefore! I might have though about applying to an airline it if the lifestyle was still more like it was when James Robertson Justice was flying his Stratocruiser in 'Out of the Clouds' - but sadly it isn't.
Here's a suggestion. Why not specify a minimum qualifying period for the pilots employed by an airline before they then compete for the LHS on merit? No fast-track for ex-pointy jet drivers, no automatic consideration for long serving Hamsters (or whatever the current term is). Just do the qualifying time, then let merit selection be the LHS determinant.
Similarly, bidline. Why not factor it so that the only rostering during the minimum qualifying period would be automatic; therafter as seniority increases, so would bidline rights. But they should never exceed 50% choice, 50% auto-roster.
But I don't suppose that BALPA would be particularly happy....
Here's a suggestion. Why not specify a minimum qualifying period for the pilots employed by an airline before they then compete for the LHS on merit? No fast-track for ex-pointy jet drivers, no automatic consideration for long serving Hamsters (or whatever the current term is). Just do the qualifying time, then let merit selection be the LHS determinant.
Similarly, bidline. Why not factor it so that the only rostering during the minimum qualifying period would be automatic; therafter as seniority increases, so would bidline rights. But they should never exceed 50% choice, 50% auto-roster.
But I don't suppose that BALPA would be particularly happy....
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Never ceases to amaze how many are caught byL_F's 'long line' fishing method...
Keeps me out of trouble elsewhere...
By the way, can someone explain why I've been moderated please?
Otherwise, I'll just have to ask Lord F the same question again....
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Dear Flashy,
I think I flew with you the a few months ago. Were you the one with the shiny shoes who said "When I was on Hercs..." and then flew like a C**T for 4 days?
I'm
really sorry I was 12 years younger than you and that you felt it was OK to accept all the "Thankyou Captain. You kept us so well informed and that was a lovely landing" by replying "No problem madam". I remember when I was a co-pilot I learned to enhance team spirit by responding "You'll have to thank the Captain for that." But no, You steal the thunder of your more talented, younger, more senior colleagues.
I'll give you your dues. You look like a Captain (albeit with one less stripe). Your silver hair and handle bar moustache look like you've stepped out of a 1950's comic book.
The next time we fly, try a little harder to not fly with the speedbrakes out in V/S mode and flare about 3 ft earlier. We're not dropping para's into Papua New Guinea, dear chap, we're trying to avoid being sued for ruptured discs!
Perhaps when you do eventually get that first command when you're 50, try to do it without relying on the favours of your ex-squadron mates who manage training. They might overlook your incredibly non-standard way of flying but they won't be able to cover up your record number of SESMA events.
For all of you.
"Beware the man who says I was on Hercs for he is pants"
I think I flew with you the a few months ago. Were you the one with the shiny shoes who said "When I was on Hercs..." and then flew like a C**T for 4 days?
I'm
really sorry I was 12 years younger than you and that you felt it was OK to accept all the "Thankyou Captain. You kept us so well informed and that was a lovely landing" by replying "No problem madam". I remember when I was a co-pilot I learned to enhance team spirit by responding "You'll have to thank the Captain for that." But no, You steal the thunder of your more talented, younger, more senior colleagues.I'll give you your dues. You look like a Captain (albeit with one less stripe). Your silver hair and handle bar moustache look like you've stepped out of a 1950's comic book.
The next time we fly, try a little harder to not fly with the speedbrakes out in V/S mode and flare about 3 ft earlier. We're not dropping para's into Papua New Guinea, dear chap, we're trying to avoid being sued for ruptured discs!
Perhaps when you do eventually get that first command when you're 50, try to do it without relying on the favours of your ex-squadron mates who manage training. They might overlook your incredibly non-standard way of flying but they won't be able to cover up your record number of SESMA events.
For all of you.
"Beware the man who says I was on Hercs for he is pants"
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cpt cadet et al...
i have no doubt that your abilities are superior to mine and many other pilots who use to fly the hercules,but really,can we have some balance to this discussion.there are some very talented ex-military pilots-who possess both the people skills and flying skills to make a very good fist of the job,just like there are some very poor ones. the same applies to other groups within our profession-wherever they have come from.so please, lets show a little respect for one another.
jumbodriver(currently airbus driver)
and i don't have shiny shoes or a moustache..or a chip..or a cross to bear etc etc
i have no doubt that your abilities are superior to mine and many other pilots who use to fly the hercules,but really,can we have some balance to this discussion.there are some very talented ex-military pilots-who possess both the people skills and flying skills to make a very good fist of the job,just like there are some very poor ones. the same applies to other groups within our profession-wherever they have come from.so please, lets show a little respect for one another.
jumbodriver(currently airbus driver)
and i don't have shiny shoes or a moustache..or a chip..or a cross to bear etc etc
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BEagle
And only a few lines before this sentence you say you don't have a chip on your shoulder!
If you're going to pretend you aren't a little bitter and twisted to try and get people to have some respect for your opinions, you should at least remember what rubbish you've already written!
Cpt CEP
Isn't the gentleman you refer to now working for a charter company at a regional airport?
Jumbodriver
I think Cpt CEP does add balance to the discussion, as he is reversing the general cadet-bashing trend!
no automatic consideration for long serving Hamsters (or whatever the current term is)
If you're going to pretend you aren't a little bitter and twisted to try and get people to have some respect for your opinions, you should at least remember what rubbish you've already written!
Cpt CEP
Isn't the gentleman you refer to now working for a charter company at a regional airport?
Jumbodriver
I think Cpt CEP does add balance to the discussion, as he is reversing the general cadet-bashing trend!
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Ex-harrier ace.
Flying manually, but still inputing all heading amd cleared level info into the Flight Director.
Quietly sitting with my arms folded I suggested this was a two crew operation.
The response was that he was used to single pilot operation and could easily handle both.
I nodded my head and suggested "You carry on Sunshine, but just wait until you do the same in the box or on your route check!"
A real ace, but a bloody awful airline pilot!
Flying manually, but still inputing all heading amd cleared level info into the Flight Director.
Quietly sitting with my arms folded I suggested this was a two crew operation.
The response was that he was used to single pilot operation and could easily handle both.
I nodded my head and suggested "You carry on Sunshine, but just wait until you do the same in the box or on your route check!"
A real ace, but a bloody awful airline pilot!
Jeepers guys, what a load of prejudiced drivel (from both sides), no wonder management at Big Airways can run rings around the pilot community, ....now what was the original question?
