Crew Member Injured
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: spain
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injuries at work
Hi everyone! i was just wondering if you do have an accident at work and lets just say break your ankle due to turbulence in what way are you insured? Which process do you have to take? Will the company do it for you or do you have to do it yourself and possible sue the bastards? ciao
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK EAST COAST
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Accidents "waiting to happen" like this seem too frequent for comfort. I spent my working life in the oil industry where Safety is paramount, and such an accident frequency as this would not be tolerated.
The quick fix is a safety harness, if properly adapted for the task it would be easy to use and give the user the confidence to lean out and not trust the steps. The user should be educated to the fact that Spiros and Co., sometimes drives away and ladders are therefore not safe.
The long term solution is a door opening and closing system which is automatic. If it cost a couple of million dollars to design,(one off cost) and say a quarter of a million to install it is peanuts in the overall cost of the aircraft.
The quick fix is a safety harness, if properly adapted for the task it would be easy to use and give the user the confidence to lean out and not trust the steps. The user should be educated to the fact that Spiros and Co., sometimes drives away and ladders are therefore not safe.
The long term solution is a door opening and closing system which is automatic. If it cost a couple of million dollars to design,(one off cost) and say a quarter of a million to install it is peanuts in the overall cost of the aircraft.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: USofA
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Beancounters aren't primarily concerned about safety issues. It's not their job. Insurers, however, are. You can be sure that underwriters are looking at this issue. The premiums they set, based on incidents just like this one, are THEN taken account of by the beancounters.
Just a clarification.
PB
Just a clarification.
PB
Join Date: Jan 1999
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It would seem form posts above that the steps were driven away from under the unfortunate lady.
How can you legislate for this type of stupidity ?. the driving away of the steps was a deliberate act and so no matter what "safety interlocks" are fitted to equipment if someone decides to drive it away with someone on top then an accident will be the result.
The fact of the matter is that the training of the door opperators has to be better , they have to take account of the low safety standards that they will find in places like CFU.
The risk free H&S attitude that you will find in northern europe and the USA simply don't exist in the these places so you must be ultra carefull and look after yourself.
Remember the lawers my have turned us into a blame culture but an accident hurts you exactly the same amount whoever is to blame !.
How can you legislate for this type of stupidity ?. the driving away of the steps was a deliberate act and so no matter what "safety interlocks" are fitted to equipment if someone decides to drive it away with someone on top then an accident will be the result.
The fact of the matter is that the training of the door opperators has to be better , they have to take account of the low safety standards that they will find in places like CFU.
The risk free H&S attitude that you will find in northern europe and the USA simply don't exist in the these places so you must be ultra carefull and look after yourself.
Remember the lawers my have turned us into a blame culture but an accident hurts you exactly the same amount whoever is to blame !.
A and C you might be wrong to malign the driver of the steps. For all we know from this thread they might well have been given the all clear to remove the steps. The cabin crew member knowing that it is easier to close the door by getting it moving from the steps (as they have done many times before) jumps onto the steps. Alas the driver is quicker than normal and the accident occurs.
Far fetched? Actually no it isn't. This is what happened in one incident I know about. The company manuals didn't state that CC shouldn't use the steps as an aid to closing the door, though they did show the procedure from inside the aircraft. The H & S investigation found the airline remiss in this. They also recommended that a set procedure be agreed between the airline and Handling Agent for confirming it was safe to remove the steps, again something not formalised anywhere.
As the 'accepted' procedure for closing the doors doesn't involve CC using the steps, the driver wouldn't be expecting anyone on them after he'd been told to remove them.
Clarity of procedure reduces risks of accidents, isn't that why Flight Decks use SOP'S?
Far fetched? Actually no it isn't. This is what happened in one incident I know about. The company manuals didn't state that CC shouldn't use the steps as an aid to closing the door, though they did show the procedure from inside the aircraft. The H & S investigation found the airline remiss in this. They also recommended that a set procedure be agreed between the airline and Handling Agent for confirming it was safe to remove the steps, again something not formalised anywhere.
As the 'accepted' procedure for closing the doors doesn't involve CC using the steps, the driver wouldn't be expecting anyone on them after he'd been told to remove them.
Clarity of procedure reduces risks of accidents, isn't that why Flight Decks use SOP'S?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NCL
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- ??Airbus vs Boeing doors?? - EASIEST?
I'm astonished that more people don't fall out of 757s...
I've been flying as CC on Britannia 757s from NCL for several years and yes the doors can be extremely heavy, the L & R4 doors (one of which I believe Ms Henry fell out of) always seem to be particularly heavy and especially after slightly longer flights when they're more prone to icing around the frame. The 757 door is FAR heavier than that of a 737 due mostly to the massive slide/raft bustles and icing on longer sectors can affect the effort needed to open these doors.
I'm a big strong boy!!!! BUT I still have to take a funny kind of statue stance with one leg buried in the door frame to get the baby moving!! I've regularly known two girls to struggle to shut the L4 door...not ideal.
I also have experience of Airbus A320 doors...which glide closed with practically no effort...BUT they do still involve angling yourself out of the door for that initial pull, which isn't ideal.
HOWEVER...the EASIEST doors to operate by far are the power assisted (AND even un-power assisted) doors of the 767s...the counter balance sytem makes it extremly easy to open and close doors without any need to even get close to leaning out of the a/c....door majestically glides in and out of the ceiling!! Obviously this is possible as there's space for the door in the ceiling of the wide body but there's got to be some easier way than the current 757 door!??
**I don't know Danielle Henry but I hope she recovers quickly.
I'm astonished that more people don't fall out of 757s...
I've been flying as CC on Britannia 757s from NCL for several years and yes the doors can be extremely heavy, the L & R4 doors (one of which I believe Ms Henry fell out of) always seem to be particularly heavy and especially after slightly longer flights when they're more prone to icing around the frame. The 757 door is FAR heavier than that of a 737 due mostly to the massive slide/raft bustles and icing on longer sectors can affect the effort needed to open these doors.
I'm a big strong boy!!!! BUT I still have to take a funny kind of statue stance with one leg buried in the door frame to get the baby moving!! I've regularly known two girls to struggle to shut the L4 door...not ideal.
I also have experience of Airbus A320 doors...which glide closed with practically no effort...BUT they do still involve angling yourself out of the door for that initial pull, which isn't ideal.
HOWEVER...the EASIEST doors to operate by far are the power assisted (AND even un-power assisted) doors of the 767s...the counter balance sytem makes it extremly easy to open and close doors without any need to even get close to leaning out of the a/c....door majestically glides in and out of the ceiling!! Obviously this is possible as there's space for the door in the ceiling of the wide body but there's got to be some easier way than the current 757 door!??
**I don't know Danielle Henry but I hope she recovers quickly.
The Reverend
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balboy, you were probably not in the industry in the time of the DC-10 and L1011. They both had power assisted doors that retracted into the ceiling compartment. Nobody ever fell out of them whilst closing the doors.
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I was once flying on a BY flight from LGW-CUN, on the ground at gatwick the CC was chatting to a gate agent and the power assisted door started to come down on top of her. she managed to clear herself just in time!
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Used to work on all of the above-mentioned a/c types in a past-life as an in-flight caterer @ LGW, and I agree with all of the points raised. 757's were never particularly popular with any of the (ground)crews that I worked with, not only because of the weight of the doors, and the fact that they are so narrow and so awkward, but as mentioned previously, the metal door-sill does become scarily like a skating rink with the slightest bulild-up of moisture, either from a spillage or from atmospheric condensation! The lip at the edge of the sill definitely does nothing for one's confidence either!!
It was not uncommon for CC to require assistance from outside the a/c to move the door to a closed position, and many times I witnessed some of them lose their footing on either the aforementioned sill, or a wet galley floor!! Thankfully none of them came a-cropper on any of those occasions!
I realise the same is not possible on the port side of the a/c all of the time, but I do believe that it is an issue that requires some serious attention from operators and ground handling companies alike.
Seeing the situation from a slightly different (and highter-up) perspective in my current incarnation, and regularly witnessing CC getting themselves into extraordinarily acrobatic positions to try and man- (or woman!) -handle the doors closed, I often wonder how more of them do not have similar serious accidents? Particularly when the wind is driving rain in through the door at them as they struggle with the weight!
Best wishes and a speedy recovery to Miss Henry.
It was not uncommon for CC to require assistance from outside the a/c to move the door to a closed position, and many times I witnessed some of them lose their footing on either the aforementioned sill, or a wet galley floor!! Thankfully none of them came a-cropper on any of those occasions!
I realise the same is not possible on the port side of the a/c all of the time, but I do believe that it is an issue that requires some serious attention from operators and ground handling companies alike.
Seeing the situation from a slightly different (and highter-up) perspective in my current incarnation, and regularly witnessing CC getting themselves into extraordinarily acrobatic positions to try and man- (or woman!) -handle the doors closed, I often wonder how more of them do not have similar serious accidents? Particularly when the wind is driving rain in through the door at them as they struggle with the weight!
Best wishes and a speedy recovery to Miss Henry.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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HotDog is right.
Even the 'ole Lockheed Electra had the vertical opening electric door.
Worked like a charm.
Gosh, even the powered boarding stairs on the Electra were a rather unique design.
Lockheed built it right.
Even the 'ole Lockheed Electra had the vertical opening electric door.
Worked like a charm.
Gosh, even the powered boarding stairs on the Electra were a rather unique design.
Lockheed built it right.
Problems Operating A/C Doors
I was so very sorry indeed to learn of this particular accident, I hope and trust the young lady concerned will make a full recovery.
Just as a matter of interest, would there be any great difficulty in fitting some form of `power assist`, be it electric or air driven to the 757 and other similar doors. My idea would be to just get the door moving inward from the fully open position and then any CC member could pull the door in the final few incehes and close it, without having to learn right out of the A/C.
Perhaps one of Ms Henry's colleagues at Brits would be kind enough to let us know how she is progressing and that she has all our very best wishes.
Just as a matter of interest, would there be any great difficulty in fitting some form of `power assist`, be it electric or air driven to the 757 and other similar doors. My idea would be to just get the door moving inward from the fully open position and then any CC member could pull the door in the final few incehes and close it, without having to learn right out of the A/C.
Perhaps one of Ms Henry's colleagues at Brits would be kind enough to let us know how she is progressing and that she has all our very best wishes.
A/C Doors
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Only the L1 and L2 doors on the 767-300 and only the L1 on the 767-200 are power assisted, however the counter balance means they are relatively light to move up OR down, especially considering how much wider than the 757's they are.
in response to fitting power assist to 757s for normal door operation - even if available it would NEVER happen in today's economic climate, especially amongst the charter carriers like us!!
in response to fitting power assist to 757s for normal door operation - even if available it would NEVER happen in today's economic climate, especially amongst the charter carriers like us!!
