Ryanair pilots paying to keep their jobs ?
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Exisiting FR Pilots have to pay expenses whilst training
FR pilots working in the company be it 1 month or 15 years now have to pay all expenses whilst being converted from the 200 on to the 800. They have to pay their own transport (including airfares - as they are off duty), food and accommodation for the duration of their conversion training 4-6 weeks and during line training. And also sign a 2 year bond.
Also bear in mind that they will not be paid sector pay whilst training either - this will bring the cost directly to the pilot of over 4000.
What other company would send an employee away for training and expect them to pay for their own transport, food and accommodation on top of all the other annual expenses now incurred.
They have reached a new low in employee relations – where is the fight back ?
Also bear in mind that they will not be paid sector pay whilst training either - this will bring the cost directly to the pilot of over 4000.
What other company would send an employee away for training and expect them to pay for their own transport, food and accommodation on top of all the other annual expenses now incurred.
They have reached a new low in employee relations – where is the fight back ?
Join Date: May 2004
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Hmmmm...
Well, IF you ALL said "NO ".....(few other thoughts
came to me)
What are they going to do? Sack you all? Constructive dismissal springs to mind.(Or is that not in Irish law?)
Well, IF you ALL said "NO ".....(few other thoughts
came to me)What are they going to do? Sack you all? Constructive dismissal springs to mind.(Or is that not in Irish law?)
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No sympathy. No-one at Ryanair to the best of my knowledge has been conscripted, everyone is there of their own free will.
It's thanks to the likes of the FR pilots that industry-wide terms and conditions have entered the current downward spiral in which we find ourselves, no thanks, in a very large part, to those who have prostituted themselves for FR and other lo-cost outifts.
You made your bed guys, you will now have to lie in it.
It's thanks to the likes of the FR pilots that industry-wide terms and conditions have entered the current downward spiral in which we find ourselves, no thanks, in a very large part, to those who have prostituted themselves for FR and other lo-cost outifts.
You made your bed guys, you will now have to lie in it.
Just a numbered other
For the sake of the whole industry.....................
Please refuse this nonsense.
MOL is single-handedly responsible for the dreadful state this industry is in. This will just make it unbearable.
Please refuse this nonsense.
MOL is single-handedly responsible for the dreadful state this industry is in. This will just make it unbearable.
Join Date: Jun 2000
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fairness,
Forgetting about the upgrading costs etc. that might be a less easy argument to win, do you not have a contract that states where you are based, and if operating away from base on company duty, what expenses the company is liable for? Surely, if your equipment is removed and the company requires you to be retrained, that amounts to being on duty. If the company lays you off and replaces you with with new entrants, that brings in redundancy considerations, not to mention all the other labour law regulations.
However, the on duty away from base expenses should be clear cut. If the company insists you sign away those rights to secure the retraining, that is unreasonable coercion to change contractual conditions of employment for the worse, and would not be by mutual consent.
However, I feel that these laws are only ever enforced when someone sues. When was the last time that happened in your outfit?
Forgetting about the upgrading costs etc. that might be a less easy argument to win, do you not have a contract that states where you are based, and if operating away from base on company duty, what expenses the company is liable for? Surely, if your equipment is removed and the company requires you to be retrained, that amounts to being on duty. If the company lays you off and replaces you with with new entrants, that brings in redundancy considerations, not to mention all the other labour law regulations.
However, the on duty away from base expenses should be clear cut. If the company insists you sign away those rights to secure the retraining, that is unreasonable coercion to change contractual conditions of employment for the worse, and would not be by mutual consent.
However, I feel that these laws are only ever enforced when someone sues. When was the last time that happened in your outfit?
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Hmm... the same old attack and defend Ryanair thing...
Pilots that can see that the profession now equals a ****ty job and attacks the cause, and the pilots that work ****ty jobs and defends it (their own pride).
jazzcat2000, how good can training at Ryanair be when contract pilots (on real bad contracts) live in lousy bed and breakfast places, selfsponsoring it ofcourse and with no per diems or the like - and NO pay, because that is paid by the block hour.
Damn, how can you guys even discuss it????????????????????
Go make yourself a union and **** Ryanair big time! Then come again with your rosy "I can see the bright side ****"!
The day I need to fly for an airline like Ryanair or their like, I will quit the pilot business, and get decent education and job. I will not be treated like a cow.
THERE IS NO BRIGHT SIDE - ONLY YOUR WISH TO MISS IT!
Pilots that can see that the profession now equals a ****ty job and attacks the cause, and the pilots that work ****ty jobs and defends it (their own pride).
jazzcat2000, how good can training at Ryanair be when contract pilots (on real bad contracts) live in lousy bed and breakfast places, selfsponsoring it ofcourse and with no per diems or the like - and NO pay, because that is paid by the block hour.
Damn, how can you guys even discuss it????????????????????
Go make yourself a union and **** Ryanair big time! Then come again with your rosy "I can see the bright side ****"!
The day I need to fly for an airline like Ryanair or their like, I will quit the pilot business, and get decent education and job. I will not be treated like a cow.
THERE IS NO BRIGHT SIDE - ONLY YOUR WISH TO MISS IT!
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I think I will read my next contract very very carefully to make sure that it doesn't allow things like that to happen. I don't work for Ryan Air, so can't comment on whether these rumours are correct or not, but will take it as a warning.
I hope they are unfounded, but if they do turn out to be true, it is unspeakable. Unfortunately, where Ryan Air have led, the rest of the industry seems to have followed!
I hope they are unfounded, but if they do turn out to be true, it is unspeakable. Unfortunately, where Ryan Air have led, the rest of the industry seems to have followed!
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I over heared an FR pilot say that he would get better benifets from pulling an advertisment kite on the back of a C172 than working for Ryanair.As said above,all the FR pilots have made their bed,now they have to sleep in it. Pay £15.000 for a type rating and then during your line training you dont get paid untill you are finished............get stuffed. I thought companys pay you to work!! Sorry FR pilots,no sympathy here!!
Join Date: Jul 2004
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our own beds?
I don't really take kindly to the kind of comment made in this forum, the one along the lines of "made your own bed, now lie in it".
At the moment we are lying in it, and are trying to change things back around. What most people dont consider is that conditions and employee relations were not at this level less than a year ago.
There was, very recently, a time when Ryanair was a well-paid job with good terms and conditions.
Now that has changed and us pilots are fighting back against this with whatever we can, this including an upcoming union recognition vote.
So please, bear this in mind before making any further judgement calls. Your opinions are understood and by all means accepted.
At the moment we are lying in it, and are trying to change things back around. What most people dont consider is that conditions and employee relations were not at this level less than a year ago.
There was, very recently, a time when Ryanair was a well-paid job with good terms and conditions.
Now that has changed and us pilots are fighting back against this with whatever we can, this including an upcoming union recognition vote.
So please, bear this in mind before making any further judgement calls. Your opinions are understood and by all means accepted.
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Have to agree with chikenscanfly this has only come about since March/April and end of year results and there are plans afoot via the unions to provide protection. In saying that Balpa have been particularly anonymous lately!
Up until this point terms and conditions were acceptable and possibly better than in some other companies. Eg Fixed roster, posted 1 month in advance, no night stops, no night flying, **** load of money(5k month), decent equipment.
Those things above have not changed but yes many things have. But its not just as simple people make out as this is a big company now with over 700 pilots and many of those scattered to bases all over Europe.
I have thought about voting with my feet but I cant find another company out there in the UK where I can keep my Command and will provide me with those things I have stated above. Thats the reality unfortunately!
Up until this point terms and conditions were acceptable and possibly better than in some other companies. Eg Fixed roster, posted 1 month in advance, no night stops, no night flying, **** load of money(5k month), decent equipment.
Those things above have not changed but yes many things have. But its not just as simple people make out as this is a big company now with over 700 pilots and many of those scattered to bases all over Europe.
I have thought about voting with my feet but I cant find another company out there in the UK where I can keep my Command and will provide me with those things I have stated above. Thats the reality unfortunately!
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....and unfortunately thats the reality, a cut in benefits vs no job at all. In the states we see pilots voting for pay cuts, in Europe we see operators going under, or in desperate straits. The reduction in terms and conditions is never nice but this industry is fighting for its very life (anyone seen the fuel price latley !), an 800 command in the strongest company in the sector will look very attractive to many, even the opportunity would be great.
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Dewdrop, I bet you are a FR pilot.
NO, I am not joking.
Do you think 60 Eur for a block hour, no perdiems,no transp., no pension, no hotels, selfsponsored SIM and uniform, base shifting all over europe and doing the travel in the freetime, no nothing... is a good deal????
You have to be a sadomasochistic pilot to think that! But that is what many have become, in order to survive and stay in the business.
If these ****ty contracts are better than a firm contract for Ryanair, then that says it all.
If you defend FR again, I wont go into a discussion about it - you can do a scroll on the LOTS of other discussions on Ryanair, and think before you type.
NO, I am not joking.
Do you think 60 Eur for a block hour, no perdiems,no transp., no pension, no hotels, selfsponsored SIM and uniform, base shifting all over europe and doing the travel in the freetime, no nothing... is a good deal????
You have to be a sadomasochistic pilot to think that! But that is what many have become, in order to survive and stay in the business.
If these ****ty contracts are better than a firm contract for Ryanair, then that says it all.
If you defend FR again, I wont go into a discussion about it - you can do a scroll on the LOTS of other discussions on Ryanair, and think before you type.
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Contaract capt gets 134 euros an hour that means if he flies 90 hours pr month he gets 12060 euros a month, Fo gets 84 euros an hour *90 7560 euros a month. thats not pennies is it.
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You guys at Ryan Air seem to be between a rock and a hard place, with little support from BALPA or anyone else. Good luck for a sensible outcome! I don't like this progressive march towards employees subsidising the shareholders/owners bottom line
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Say Mach Number
easyJet has fixed roster (soon to be almost 5/3) no night stops, or night flying, decent equipment (737-700/A319), not quite as much money, but crew food/water, training paid plus allowances!!
The only hitch is getting the recruitment department to listen to you!
The only hitch is getting the recruitment department to listen to you!
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...well, signing up with RYAN-Air (I know two guys working for FR via Brookfield aviation) is just like prostitution - selling out y'self for the highest price - but DON'T winge thereafter being trated accordingly (as some kind of prostitute ;-)) -
No offence against anyone personally though!? Just think 'bout it!
No offence against anyone personally though!? Just think 'bout it!
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I think I must be the luckiest pilot of all, when they lied to me and got me the wrong base and I refused to work for the outfit in the end.
I can't believe what I keep on reading about FR.
Pilots, we (YOU) have the power to ground the whole operation now. Facing immediate ruin, MOL will have to give in to any demand you make, go and get it.
Edited by PPRUNE (unbeknown to Stelios).
I can't believe what I keep on reading about FR.
Pilots, we (YOU) have the power to ground the whole operation now. Facing immediate ruin, MOL will have to give in to any demand you make, go and get it.
Edited by PPRUNE (unbeknown to Stelios).
Last edited by Stelios; 12th Oct 2004 at 15:34.