Pilot SHORTAGE reduces experince level requirement for jobs.
Mach 3
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I flew my visual circuits (the min 6 req, first time out) in the 73 for the issue of my TR with 166.55hrs TT...so the logbook says (sim hrs not included in the total).
Any offers for less?
Any offers for less?
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey pop.....love your style....let them have it.... a bit of faith in the new boys and girls goes a long way.
And pop....i think some of the guys and gals here have short memories. What does every airline pilot who contributed to this thread have in common..................they all had 250hrs once
(but i guess they were all special pilots 
)
And pop....i think some of the guys and gals here have short memories. What does every airline pilot who contributed to this thread have in common..................they all had 250hrs once
(but i guess they were all special pilots )
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: NY
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
More to command then flying better...
Yes! Perhaps it is time to reflect that with the vast majority of present day pilots "Self selecting" so to speak. . . . there is the Captain and the P1 but they are not always one and the same!!
Take the BMI incident recently as an example of "Lack of command and control" - they switched off the radar! nuff said!!
Take the BMI incident recently as an example of "Lack of command and control" - they switched off the radar! nuff said!!
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: hotels
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the theme of this thread is 'market forces'.
Presently, in different parts of the world, there are market forces acting that are producing a wide range of experience requirements for airline positions. This changes with time - in the good times, the talent pool dries up and companies are forced to accept lower experience (although still above state/insurance minimums). The oposite is the case in the bad times. Experience and qualifications are two criteria most companies use for any job, all other things being equal (attitude/aptitude etc).
Perhaps the dig of Kapt M's post could be the total experience of the flightdeck crew combined (2500+400=2900hrs TT, less than would get you a job as an S/o in Godzone). Hopefully such an airline would not allow such a pairing to be rostered, as is common policy in many companies. Most posters to this thread seem to be hung up on the low F/o hours required for a jet job, but I agree with a previous poster who expressed more concern over command experience levels. With a bit of training and practice, jets of any size can be mastered in a relatively short time. Narrow body or wide body - it is all about time and energy managment. Certainly, the hardest and most dangerous flying out there would be the single pilot/(underpowered) multi-IFR charter stuff - in the middle of winter with no radar or de-icing!. Character building, although generally quite low risk for the population on the whole (just one fatality at a time if you are by yourself, flying freight etc!).
With the ink wet on my CPL, I was told I had a license to learn. I crawled before I walked and walked before I ran. From glider towing to instructing to charter to freight to jets, it was a slow 200 hour-to-3000 hour transition. Sure, I would have liked to get onto jets sooner ($$$), but in hindsight I am grateful of the experience. Having now been a jet f/o for 8 years (with another 8 years to go to a command!) I feel my bredth of experience everytime I put a 767 down in a crosswind on a narrow wet runway at night.
Certainly, some pilots will gain experience quicker than others. The airforce system typifies this, with very young guys and girls launching off in supersonic fighter-bombers with comparitively thin logbooks. The cost of this intensity of training is massive and the civilian system is incapable of preparing pilots in the same way - be they self-funded or cadet. The all-mighty dollar and an airline's imperative to make a buck will mean that any training carried out is to the minimum standard only (which admitably does vary between airlines). The experience a pilot gains is then 'on the job' and less in the training school, and in a mature airline the number of 'events' in which to gain this experience are very rare and spaced wide apart. (The newer airlines seem to have more regular 'events', so perhaps their lower time pilots actually learn quicker through an acelerated course of 'hard knocks'.)
Being suitable for a command is about more than handling ability and tech knowledge. Dealing with people and events in times of high stress is something that takes a great deal of time (hours and calendar) to develop. The consequences for either a captain or co-pilot getting it wrong is obviously more in a 737/A320 than a Chieftain. Insurance companies recognise this by stipulating minimums, exclusions or imposing high premiums - they are professional assessors of risk. Hence the traditional route to gaining experience...walking before you run.
Regardless of what different people think of what constitutes 'enough' experience to ocupy a seat, the market forces of supply and demand are now what is driving down the required experience levels for some airlines. As long as the training system is up to scratch, the engineering support suffcient and CRM and a sound safety culture established, 99.99% of operators forced to lower their requirements should have no major accidents, and the low time F/os and Captains should be around long enough to contribute to forums like this.
From what I have seen and read, advocates of low-time jet jobs seem to be young ambitious types - no qaums there, having been young and ambitious once! However, all going well, an airline career will last 30 years or more, and after the honeymoon is over you start to crave two things - money and time off. The race to get a command MAY let you achieve those desires quicker, but often at the expence of lifestlye, and you can't wind the clock back to enjoy your younger years all over again. Sacrificing a lifestyle in the race to get a jet job or command seems to lead to many grumpy pilots living average lives in average jobs miles from home.
But, heh...let the good times roll
Presently, in different parts of the world, there are market forces acting that are producing a wide range of experience requirements for airline positions. This changes with time - in the good times, the talent pool dries up and companies are forced to accept lower experience (although still above state/insurance minimums). The oposite is the case in the bad times. Experience and qualifications are two criteria most companies use for any job, all other things being equal (attitude/aptitude etc).
Perhaps the dig of Kapt M's post could be the total experience of the flightdeck crew combined (2500+400=2900hrs TT, less than would get you a job as an S/o in Godzone). Hopefully such an airline would not allow such a pairing to be rostered, as is common policy in many companies. Most posters to this thread seem to be hung up on the low F/o hours required for a jet job, but I agree with a previous poster who expressed more concern over command experience levels. With a bit of training and practice, jets of any size can be mastered in a relatively short time. Narrow body or wide body - it is all about time and energy managment. Certainly, the hardest and most dangerous flying out there would be the single pilot/(underpowered) multi-IFR charter stuff - in the middle of winter with no radar or de-icing!. Character building, although generally quite low risk for the population on the whole (just one fatality at a time if you are by yourself, flying freight etc!).
With the ink wet on my CPL, I was told I had a license to learn. I crawled before I walked and walked before I ran. From glider towing to instructing to charter to freight to jets, it was a slow 200 hour-to-3000 hour transition. Sure, I would have liked to get onto jets sooner ($$$), but in hindsight I am grateful of the experience. Having now been a jet f/o for 8 years (with another 8 years to go to a command!) I feel my bredth of experience everytime I put a 767 down in a crosswind on a narrow wet runway at night.
Certainly, some pilots will gain experience quicker than others. The airforce system typifies this, with very young guys and girls launching off in supersonic fighter-bombers with comparitively thin logbooks. The cost of this intensity of training is massive and the civilian system is incapable of preparing pilots in the same way - be they self-funded or cadet. The all-mighty dollar and an airline's imperative to make a buck will mean that any training carried out is to the minimum standard only (which admitably does vary between airlines). The experience a pilot gains is then 'on the job' and less in the training school, and in a mature airline the number of 'events' in which to gain this experience are very rare and spaced wide apart. (The newer airlines seem to have more regular 'events', so perhaps their lower time pilots actually learn quicker through an acelerated course of 'hard knocks'.)
Being suitable for a command is about more than handling ability and tech knowledge. Dealing with people and events in times of high stress is something that takes a great deal of time (hours and calendar) to develop. The consequences for either a captain or co-pilot getting it wrong is obviously more in a 737/A320 than a Chieftain. Insurance companies recognise this by stipulating minimums, exclusions or imposing high premiums - they are professional assessors of risk. Hence the traditional route to gaining experience...walking before you run.
Regardless of what different people think of what constitutes 'enough' experience to ocupy a seat, the market forces of supply and demand are now what is driving down the required experience levels for some airlines. As long as the training system is up to scratch, the engineering support suffcient and CRM and a sound safety culture established, 99.99% of operators forced to lower their requirements should have no major accidents, and the low time F/os and Captains should be around long enough to contribute to forums like this.
From what I have seen and read, advocates of low-time jet jobs seem to be young ambitious types - no qaums there, having been young and ambitious once! However, all going well, an airline career will last 30 years or more, and after the honeymoon is over you start to crave two things - money and time off. The race to get a command MAY let you achieve those desires quicker, but often at the expence of lifestlye, and you can't wind the clock back to enjoy your younger years all over again. Sacrificing a lifestyle in the race to get a jet job or command seems to lead to many grumpy pilots living average lives in average jobs miles from home.
But, heh...let the good times roll
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Tamarama beach
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I couldn't agree more !! I get to fly with cadets on a regular basis and although they perform well when things don't go wrong I am a lot less impressed when the pressure builds. Working for a non english speaking airline I 8 times out of ten I have to do a bit of translating so the guy in the right hand seat can answer or acknowledge and this requires constant attention.
I've seen blokes playing cool dudes cuz " I am a Bus pilot " turning to me in awe when things start boiling and that irritates me big time.
I've never had such trouble with more seasoned pilots either Air Force, Navy or Regional with whom maturity also comes as a bonus.
Sorry young and ambitious chaps, but our trade is something you " acquire " along the years. The tooh fairy has nothing to do with your ability, times has.
The lack of experience may not lead to fatal mishaps..........although I doubt it but at least with very nasty stuffs which will keep the airlines legal department very busy ( Easy Jet with no radar etc ........ could be anyone for the matter )
I've seen blokes playing cool dudes cuz " I am a Bus pilot " turning to me in awe when things start boiling and that irritates me big time.
I've never had such trouble with more seasoned pilots either Air Force, Navy or Regional with whom maturity also comes as a bonus.
Sorry young and ambitious chaps, but our trade is something you " acquire " along the years. The tooh fairy has nothing to do with your ability, times has.
The lack of experience may not lead to fatal mishaps..........although I doubt it but at least with very nasty stuffs which will keep the airlines legal department very busy ( Easy Jet with no radar etc ........ could be anyone for the matter )
