Ryanair faces inquiry as toilets on aircraft were used as seats
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I don't know why people always get worked up the way they do on this forum!
The crew (CPT) made the wrong decision of permitting them to use the toilet for t/o and landing. Completely wrong!
But he tried to help out some fellow company people to get back to the UK. They got "caught" in the act and they pay the price for it. Well I'm sorry that this guy has got a heart and decided to listen to it, he shouldn't have done it.
Unfortunate!
Best regards to the crew that got fired and need to apply somewhere else, good luck to you guys.
SZ
happy flying
The crew (CPT) made the wrong decision of permitting them to use the toilet for t/o and landing. Completely wrong!
But he tried to help out some fellow company people to get back to the UK. They got "caught" in the act and they pay the price for it. Well I'm sorry that this guy has got a heart and decided to listen to it, he shouldn't have done it.
Unfortunate!
Best regards to the crew that got fired and need to apply somewhere else, good luck to you guys.
SZ
happy flying
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Precisely what regulation (or law) [ excepting Ryanair ops manual ] was infringed ?
********
STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS
S.I. No. 437 of 2002
IRISH AVIATION AUTHORITY
(OPERATIONS) ORDER, 2002
(28)
(2) The operator of a commercial transport aircraft shall ensure that all passengers
on board that aircraft are briefed in accordance with the applicable Joint
Aviation Requirements and the pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall ensure
that…(c) prior to and during each take-off and each landing and whenever, by
reason of turbulent air conditions or any emergency during flight, the
precaution is considered necessary, all passengers on board an aircraft are
secured in their seats by means of the seat belts or safety harnesses
provided.
******
If I'm wrong and yours was a sincere question, then I apologize.
Dave
Toilet Seats
oTd.
Ref: your final para., understand totally.
Just playing Devil's Advocate in protection of an obviously otherwise first-class Captain and also remembering the days when Captains were allowed to be fully responsible for the operation of their aircraft without interference.
With regard to "comments military", also true. Some services actually allowed their officers to take responsibility for their actions,.... and for the repercussions if you got it wrong !!
Quote : "Rules are for the guidance etc....."
Felicitations, Sleeve.
Ref: your final para., understand totally.
Just playing Devil's Advocate in protection of an obviously otherwise first-class Captain and also remembering the days when Captains were allowed to be fully responsible for the operation of their aircraft without interference.
With regard to "comments military", also true. Some services actually allowed their officers to take responsibility for their actions,.... and for the repercussions if you got it wrong !!
Quote : "Rules are for the guidance etc....."
Felicitations, Sleeve.
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Having read this thread from start to finish a couple of times it seems clear that the general feeling is
1. this used to happen quite regularly in the past. I personally heard of a 747 that left EDI one day after a rugby international with (allegedly) 14 people in the cockpit!!
2. The Captain made an unfortunate error of judgement and has paid a severe price
Anyone who knows this man will vouch for the fact that he is one of the nicest, most decent, helpful pilots who ever wore wings. That this should happen after such a long and distinguished career and within a couple of weeks of retirement is such a shame. If he was an
the situation would never have happened. It happened simply because he is such a decent genuine guy who would do anything to help a fellow crew member.
Why dont all you 'holier than thous' just leave it be. I, for one, would just like to wish Capt X a very happy retirement.
ps It must be time to chop this thread at this stage.
1. this used to happen quite regularly in the past. I personally heard of a 747 that left EDI one day after a rugby international with (allegedly) 14 people in the cockpit!!
2. The Captain made an unfortunate error of judgement and has paid a severe price
Anyone who knows this man will vouch for the fact that he is one of the nicest, most decent, helpful pilots who ever wore wings. That this should happen after such a long and distinguished career and within a couple of weeks of retirement is such a shame. If he was an
the situation would never have happened. It happened simply because he is such a decent genuine guy who would do anything to help a fellow crew member.Why dont all you 'holier than thous' just leave it be. I, for one, would just like to wish Capt X a very happy retirement.
ps It must be time to chop this thread at this stage.
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At some stage in the dim and distant past, some aircraft had toilets equipped with padded seat covers and backs, and seat belts.
I once worked for an outfit that bought 2 DC-6Bs that were either of Pan-Am Pacific or Western Air Lines descent, and the local Civil Aviation made the first item for certification, "removal of toilet seat belts".
Cant remember toilet door config, but in those days there was plenty of aisle space so egress was probably not the problem, more likely the risk of pax trapped in toilet.
Many a wistful sigh over the loss of the potential "get-you-home" seats for staff.
Similar incident about 15 years ago in the Caribbean had almost identical outcome, except F/O lost his job too, plus several "Management " employees who were on the actual aircraft, (some on legal seats, some bog-riders).
Same syndrome, "nice" well -liked Capt, helping staff to get home in time to go to work after "Cultural Convention"(Carnival).
This misguided favour sadly benefitted no-one.
Murphy quote?
"No good deed ever goes unpunished."
I once worked for an outfit that bought 2 DC-6Bs that were either of Pan-Am Pacific or Western Air Lines descent, and the local Civil Aviation made the first item for certification, "removal of toilet seat belts".
Cant remember toilet door config, but in those days there was plenty of aisle space so egress was probably not the problem, more likely the risk of pax trapped in toilet.
Many a wistful sigh over the loss of the potential "get-you-home" seats for staff.
Similar incident about 15 years ago in the Caribbean had almost identical outcome, except F/O lost his job too, plus several "Management " employees who were on the actual aircraft, (some on legal seats, some bog-riders).
Same syndrome, "nice" well -liked Capt, helping staff to get home in time to go to work after "Cultural Convention"(Carnival).
This misguided favour sadly benefitted no-one.
Murphy quote?
"No good deed ever goes unpunished."
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aviaco, u need to chill a bit... i am ex crew for FR, and i knew the girls operating the cabin on that flight, and the CPT... they were bullied by those staff!! i live with 2 of the girls, and i couldnt believ it when i heard it! those 2 staff in the toilets knoew what they were doing, they didnt care! and the CPT allowed it... thus overruling the SCCM in the cabin... thye deserved to be sacked! and as for the operating crew, thye need to find a decent airline where crew, operating or deadheading, dont take such liberites!
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For reasons I mentioned earlier, I find it difficult to chill at such an incident taking place in this day and age.
Ou Trek dronkie's second para in his/her post above just about sums it up for me - how could something like this have happened in Europe in 2004.
Please don't get me wrong, everyone, who has replied above. I am not an FR basher, and nor have I ever participated in FR bashing before.
Some of the things I posted above were out of sheer frustration and, I suppose, anger over the incident that occurred.
Sorry if I offended anyone. Heat of the moment, and all that.
AVIACO
Ou Trek dronkie's second para in his/her post above just about sums it up for me - how could something like this have happened in Europe in 2004.
Please don't get me wrong, everyone, who has replied above. I am not an FR basher, and nor have I ever participated in FR bashing before.
Some of the things I posted above were out of sheer frustration and, I suppose, anger over the incident that occurred.
Sorry if I offended anyone. Heat of the moment, and all that.
AVIACO
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Phew! Got to the end...
Few points:
Sleeve Wing
Yes, back in the "good old days", captains had a little more latitude. This was because everybody assumed that they would never break the rules, or that if they did, the consequences would be minor. Sadly, history is replete with examples of captains that not only broke the rules, but endangered (or killed) pax in the process. So along came greater regulation. And lawyers. Break the rules in the current climate, well, be prepared to hand in your ID card.
Second, a positioning crew member is a pax. End of story.
Third, the buck doesn't stop with the captain. It stops with the responsible person in the company (usually the Operations Director), and then ultimately with the directors of the company, who end up facing the corporate manslaughter charge if it all goes wrong (Herald of Free Enterprise, for example).
Fourth, it is wrong to blame FR management for this, or MOL, unless it can be shown that either the captain was pressured into doing what he did (and there surely would have been witnesses, and no resignation), or that there is an endemic disregard for safety within FR (which I doubt).
Fifth, it is completely clear that carrying anybody in the WC is unsafe, irrespective of what used to go on in them "good old days".
Sixth, anybody that thinks you can carry 14 pax or crew in the flight deck of any modern airliner, is clearly completely uninvolved in this industry. Or just plain daft.
Seventh, for the person wondering what law the captain broke... the Ops Manual IS the law. Once the CAA (or whoever) sign off on it, it becomes an addition to the aviation legislation of the country, and is a legal document. If you break the provisions of the Ops Manual, you are in fact breaking the law (in most western countries at any rate).
All those feeling sorry for this captain - well, he might be a top bloke, but part of being a captain is making the correct decision 100% of the time. Part of the job is the danger that if you screw up, you may well lose that job. This guy didn't make a mistake, he made a conscious decision to break the law. In other words, he rolled the dice, and lost.
I have a hard time feeling sorry for a guy who chose to do what I have spent my entire career making absolutely sure I didn't do.
That isn't arrogance, or condescension. More disbelief.
Few points:
Sleeve Wing
Yes, back in the "good old days", captains had a little more latitude. This was because everybody assumed that they would never break the rules, or that if they did, the consequences would be minor. Sadly, history is replete with examples of captains that not only broke the rules, but endangered (or killed) pax in the process. So along came greater regulation. And lawyers. Break the rules in the current climate, well, be prepared to hand in your ID card.
Second, a positioning crew member is a pax. End of story.
Third, the buck doesn't stop with the captain. It stops with the responsible person in the company (usually the Operations Director), and then ultimately with the directors of the company, who end up facing the corporate manslaughter charge if it all goes wrong (Herald of Free Enterprise, for example).
Fourth, it is wrong to blame FR management for this, or MOL, unless it can be shown that either the captain was pressured into doing what he did (and there surely would have been witnesses, and no resignation), or that there is an endemic disregard for safety within FR (which I doubt).
Fifth, it is completely clear that carrying anybody in the WC is unsafe, irrespective of what used to go on in them "good old days".
Sixth, anybody that thinks you can carry 14 pax or crew in the flight deck of any modern airliner, is clearly completely uninvolved in this industry. Or just plain daft.
Seventh, for the person wondering what law the captain broke... the Ops Manual IS the law. Once the CAA (or whoever) sign off on it, it becomes an addition to the aviation legislation of the country, and is a legal document. If you break the provisions of the Ops Manual, you are in fact breaking the law (in most western countries at any rate).
All those feeling sorry for this captain - well, he might be a top bloke, but part of being a captain is making the correct decision 100% of the time. Part of the job is the danger that if you screw up, you may well lose that job. This guy didn't make a mistake, he made a conscious decision to break the law. In other words, he rolled the dice, and lost.
I have a hard time feeling sorry for a guy who chose to do what I have spent my entire career making absolutely sure I didn't do.
That isn't arrogance, or condescension. More disbelief.
Last edited by MOR; 25th Jul 2004 at 15:32.
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What puzzles me is how did these two standby crew even board the aircraft without the collusion of the ground handlers.
The Captain was a fool but he should never have been put in a position to be able to make the decision.
I think one or two heads are still to roll.
The Captain was a fool but he should never have been put in a position to be able to make the decision.
I think one or two heads are still to roll.
Is it just me or are there any other professional pilots out there getting a just a little bit tired of Mr AVIACO banging on and on and on and on and on?
He has made his point a thousand times over but it still does not seem to be enough.
He quotes as his raison d'etre that he lost his best mate in the BA 737 accident at Manchester. I carried my first coffin containing a best mate in the Air Force when I was 19 and have carried God knows how many more since then.
However, I don't bang on and on about it just because two people, who should have known better, travelled in a Ryanair bog from Barcelona to Dublin!
He has made his point a thousand times over but it still does not seem to be enough.
He quotes as his raison d'etre that he lost his best mate in the BA 737 accident at Manchester. I carried my first coffin containing a best mate in the Air Force when I was 19 and have carried God knows how many more since then.
However, I don't bang on and on about it just because two people, who should have known better, travelled in a Ryanair bog from Barcelona to Dublin!
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If Ryanair employed more ex RAF pilots they would get people who know how to obey a rule and not make gross errors of judgement.
Breeding and training. Sadly lacking it would seem.
LF
Breeding and training. Sadly lacking it would seem.
LF
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From a post on the CC Forum...
If this is indeed true, then I'm afraid the Captain deserves everything he got. Why would a person who has spent considerable time and thousands of pounds on training, risk his career in such a stupid way? It beggars belief.
I have to admit that when I heard the story a couple of days ago, I didn't believe it. I'm sure that this is not a reflection of FR's standards of safety and SEP but it will certainly do them some serious damage in the eyes of the airline community and the general public.
MOL seems to believe that "there's no such thing as bad publicity" so I'm sure he'll deliver an interesting response to this fiasco...
that toilet incidnet was something else. as i used to work for Ryanair, i still live with FR crew, and the hostie working from the aft galley is my housemate!! she told me as soon as she got home... tho it all came to light on friday last.....
the flight was fully booked out, and there was 2 staff occupying the flight deck J/seats, another staff member occupying the J/S beside my housemate, and then the 2 senior CCM's occupying the jacks! they werent ticketed at all.. they got thier friend working on the ramp to show them the staff entrance to the ramp, so thye could board the plane. my friend noticed them standing in the galley area, and then disappear.. she assumed that they had taken seats. the headcount was done, and they cloed up... 130 pax, 3 J/S, and that was it. as they were not ticketed, they were not in the figures. after the demo was conducted, my mate secured the aft cabin, and galley areas. she went to lock the toilets, and there was the 2!! My friend immeaditely called up to the SCCM, and she came down. She phoned up to the CPT to tell him the situation, and the CPT allowed this. The SCCM, another friend of mine, was overruled, and she refused to give "cabin secure" to him. They were taxiing out now, and the SCCM didnt know what to do... she was in shock. she ran back up the cabin, and the CPT gave "seats for take off"
After take off, the 2 in question came out of the toliets and sat on the crew seats while the other CCM's did the bar service. a pax asked my friend "whats ryanair's policy on take off and landing" she replied with "everyone should be seated with seatblets on" so the lady replied quite calmy; "so why did u have 2 pax in the toliets?"
the rest is history....
the flight was fully booked out, and there was 2 staff occupying the flight deck J/seats, another staff member occupying the J/S beside my housemate, and then the 2 senior CCM's occupying the jacks! they werent ticketed at all.. they got thier friend working on the ramp to show them the staff entrance to the ramp, so thye could board the plane. my friend noticed them standing in the galley area, and then disappear.. she assumed that they had taken seats. the headcount was done, and they cloed up... 130 pax, 3 J/S, and that was it. as they were not ticketed, they were not in the figures. after the demo was conducted, my mate secured the aft cabin, and galley areas. she went to lock the toilets, and there was the 2!! My friend immeaditely called up to the SCCM, and she came down. She phoned up to the CPT to tell him the situation, and the CPT allowed this. The SCCM, another friend of mine, was overruled, and she refused to give "cabin secure" to him. They were taxiing out now, and the SCCM didnt know what to do... she was in shock. she ran back up the cabin, and the CPT gave "seats for take off"
After take off, the 2 in question came out of the toliets and sat on the crew seats while the other CCM's did the bar service. a pax asked my friend "whats ryanair's policy on take off and landing" she replied with "everyone should be seated with seatblets on" so the lady replied quite calmy; "so why did u have 2 pax in the toliets?"
the rest is history....
I have to admit that when I heard the story a couple of days ago, I didn't believe it. I'm sure that this is not a reflection of FR's standards of safety and SEP but it will certainly do them some serious damage in the eyes of the airline community and the general public.
MOL seems to believe that "there's no such thing as bad publicity" so I'm sure he'll deliver an interesting response to this fiasco...
Flaps, the sacked crew were the 'stowaways' not the operating crew. LOD also wrote if anything had happened at least there were two extra crew on board. Well there may have been, but they also may well have been trapped/incapacitated in the bogs. As a pax would you believe/accept instructions from someone who has just stepped out of the bog and says they're cabin crew?, I certainly wouldn't and I can't imagine any of my friends who are not in the industry would either. I imagine pretty much all pax know you're not supposed to sit in the bogs during t/o and landing, hence the original pax's comments, so I can't see how they would have been able to exert any authority under those circumstances. If a rampy has also colluded in getting them on the plane, then their companies next contract renewal might be worth sitting in on! 
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Hi Folks, CHILL !!!
Why all the fuss, the crew knew what they were doing,yeah it was unsafe, but hey lots of unsafe things happen , they were not fare paying public, they knew the risks, so must have been happy to take them. We as a society must let people make decisions about risk themselves, too much nanny state at the moment
Very unfair to have been sacked, at worst a severe reprimand.
It was almost standard practice in most of the world until recently, toilets,underfloor gallyey L1011, flight deck,anywhere to get a seat, soory position on the plane.
Why all the fuss, the crew knew what they were doing,yeah it was unsafe, but hey lots of unsafe things happen , they were not fare paying public, they knew the risks, so must have been happy to take them. We as a society must let people make decisions about risk themselves, too much nanny state at the moment
Very unfair to have been sacked, at worst a severe reprimand.
It was almost standard practice in most of the world until recently, toilets,underfloor gallyey L1011, flight deck,anywhere to get a seat, soory position on the plane.