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Logbook Scam ??

Old 22nd Jul 2001, 19:44
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Red face Logbook Scam ??

Here, I've just been told by an ex BA captain that they even log hours spent in their bunks as P1 while the second crew are in control in the cockpit. Same source said that on some trips, he logged more hours asleep than in command !!

Can this be allowed
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Old 22nd Jul 2001, 20:07
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Wink

Even worse, I heard some American airline crews get paid for hours they don't even fly with trip and duty rigs!

There outta be a law...
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Old 22nd Jul 2001, 20:25
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What ever happened to the Airtours pilot who 'allegedly' had a Parker Pen Log Book?.
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Old 22nd Jul 2001, 20:38
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Does the CAA know about this, and does it mean that my positioning flights as a passenger can also be logged ?
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Old 22nd Jul 2001, 22:19
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The "Captain [P.1]" is still the aircraft commander, as defined by the ANO, even though he is not present on the flight deck.
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Old 22nd Jul 2001, 22:20
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There is nothing unusual about this. The commander is always the commander. In his seat or not. In my company when the commander leaves the cockpit he "appoints" a PIC. Usually the FO scheduled to fly 1st. FO. He could technically appoint the 2 FO, had he more experience on the type. But this never happens, because we are all checked out as LHS commanders.
Who cares if he logs he hours or not. After 4-5000 hours it is uninteresting to count.
The case where a younger pilot logs hours he has not flown, to get a job THAT is criminal.
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Old 22nd Jul 2001, 22:28
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By the time your a Captain on an aircraft with bunks it doesn't really matter what you log.
Hours logged as relief crew are a different matter and with regrd to ATPL issue are factored by most authorities
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Old 23rd Jul 2001, 15:01
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uplinker
So there you are it's not a scam, sorry to disappoint you. Whether your awake or asleep the commander is still the commander of the aircraft. Possibly this link could now be closed.
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Old 23rd Jul 2001, 17:04
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20,000 hours??!!
Most pilots only DREAM of reaching that!
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Old 23rd Jul 2001, 17:36
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Exclamation

Especially if you're an ex-mil, ex-fast jet jockey. Somehow 3000hrs whizzing around at 250ft and below at 480 knots should count for more!
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Old 23rd Jul 2001, 17:51
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Cool

Paladini,

3000hrs at 250ft and 480kts - You're still alive - and complaining?!

Only teasing, honest

ATB

Underdog

[ 23 July 2001: Message edited by: Underdog ]

[ 23 July 2001: Message edited by: Underdog ]
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Old 23rd Jul 2001, 18:14
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Do the Captains have a special column in their Logbooks where they can log there "bunk" time solo or dual..
as long as wifey doesnt get to do the summeries..
4g
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Old 23rd Jul 2001, 19:27
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DExter.....20000 hours is not a dream of mine. I'd rather retire with 12000 behind me, while getting the same salary are the above mentioned 20000 guy. That 8000 hours doing something else! Although I love to fly there is a limit
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Old 23rd Jul 2001, 20:19
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It would be interesting to see how much people fly 'hands on' (ie in full control of an aircraft) rather than as 'systems monitors'.

Given the swapping of take/offs and landings between P1 and P2, I'd suspect that the reality is something like an average of 20 minutes per sector - no wonder management has a thing about flight crew productivity!
 
Old 23rd Jul 2001, 20:30
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Guv - thats a touch out of order isn't it?
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Old 23rd Jul 2001, 21:22
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The Guvnor

Not all management has a "thing about flight crew productivity", dear chap, though it is clear from your own current thread about Iberia that YOU do. But there again, you are not a manager and you are not a pilot, so your opinion is quite superfluous, is it not?

Why don't you wake up and smell the coffee, Guv? We pilots are simply not going to take this kind of B.S. from the likes of you.
 
Old 23rd Jul 2001, 21:24
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Kinda like management "managing", eh Guv!
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Old 23rd Jul 2001, 22:08
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Lightbulb

This thread raises an interesting discussion ref the difference between:
1. In command
2. In charge/control/responsible for.
They are very different and, for the non-cogniscienti may I point out the difference.
1 means that one is irrevocably responsible for everything which happens within ones sphere of command. e.g. ship master, airline captain, military theatre commander.
2 means that one is looking after a delegated area under a commander.
For instance, when I was a Merchant Navy officer I was in charge of the ship to the extent delegated by the captain. Now that I am an airline captain, I am in command of the aircraft to the far greater extent that my MN captain was in command of his ship.
Seems a very simple concept to me but I am quite, how shall I say, surprised by the number of people who cannot grasp it.
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Old 24th Jul 2001, 03:29
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So when/if The Guvnor actually gets his L-1011's into operation, I suppose use of the autopilot will be 'verboten' to keep the pilots productive.
For Christs' sake....give me a &^%$*$ break.
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Old 25th Jul 2001, 00:50
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Please correct me if I am wrong, but on obtaining my command I was informed....
"The designated commander of a flight is legally liable to the extent of his worldwide wealth, so to avoid confusion he is also liable even when asleep in the bunk,or if visiting the toilet,or doing a walkround outside the aircraft prior to departure.
So have your assets in trust,never sleep or use the toilet, and never do a walkround!!
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