American pilots to get some BA commands (GSS)
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eh sigmund,
"Er, what's the difference between an American pilot and a European pilot? Surely the job should go to the one that is best qualified and prepared to do it. Surely any concept of "our jobs" went out decades ago.... " !!!!
ehhhh i think not, how many europeans do you have working out of your airport ? i'll wager a guess --- none ? could that be because you lot arn't so stupid over there ?
anyone trying to operate a european registered a/c out of an american field flying yanks around internally from my experience has to put up with constant 'inspections' and "oh, we don't have your plan" etc etc etc,
it's not the pilots fault if i were american and they let me fly here i would, it's the greedy gits who are allowed to start airlines in this country (uk) with non european registered a/c who don't have the same flight time limitations and who 'fold' in the winter to keep costs down. - oh, and our gutless CAA.
Hey - come to England - you get to work and if you claim asylum here (maybe you feel persecuted by the airport carpark warden) you will get a free mobile phone, car, and a nice house. !
"Er, what's the difference between an American pilot and a European pilot? Surely the job should go to the one that is best qualified and prepared to do it. Surely any concept of "our jobs" went out decades ago.... " !!!!
ehhhh i think not, how many europeans do you have working out of your airport ? i'll wager a guess --- none ? could that be because you lot arn't so stupid over there ?
anyone trying to operate a european registered a/c out of an american field flying yanks around internally from my experience has to put up with constant 'inspections' and "oh, we don't have your plan" etc etc etc,
it's not the pilots fault if i were american and they let me fly here i would, it's the greedy gits who are allowed to start airlines in this country (uk) with non european registered a/c who don't have the same flight time limitations and who 'fold' in the winter to keep costs down. - oh, and our gutless CAA.
Hey - come to England - you get to work and if you claim asylum here (maybe you feel persecuted by the airport carpark warden) you will get a free mobile phone, car, and a nice house. !
Last edited by toon; 14th Jul 2004 at 10:42.
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Let us sieze this chance and stop the americans taking our jobs again!!
Hey Guys and Gals, this thread started out badly, with some rather inane comments about job protectionism, exclusionism, and a total disregard of market forces.
As an "itinerant" Yank armed with a full JAA license issued in the UK, (YES, I sat ALL the subjects ... and passed the GFT and IRT first go) I may be in a position to offer a moderated input.
Perhaps the "Xenophobe's Guide" folks should prepare a tome on the BA (or rather GSS inhabited) flight deck?
As opposed to the "ex-pat" presence in Saudia, Kuwait and many Asian airlines..... the Yank presence in, and on the fringe of, BA is NOT necessarilly capability driven. Brit/EU pilots "can" do the job without "ex-pat" experience in the left or right seat. The MARKET drives the acquisition of crew (just ask Jerry O'S.). Why else can ACMI (Aircraft, Crew, Mx and Insurance) operators thrive. Even "good" airlines need help temporarilly.
The closed shop mentality has done much more harm to the industry than a few "lost commands to the .... ptui.... Americans". This applies to companies on BOTH sides of the pond.
Try a little introspection .... NO-ONE likes being passed over for upgrade, especially because of an "outsider". Remember, before YOU joined the company, YOU were one of those too, regardless of the post code of your birth.
Hey Guys and Gals, this thread started out badly, with some rather inane comments about job protectionism, exclusionism, and a total disregard of market forces.
As an "itinerant" Yank armed with a full JAA license issued in the UK, (YES, I sat ALL the subjects ... and passed the GFT and IRT first go) I may be in a position to offer a moderated input.
Perhaps the "Xenophobe's Guide" folks should prepare a tome on the BA (or rather GSS inhabited) flight deck?
As opposed to the "ex-pat" presence in Saudia, Kuwait and many Asian airlines..... the Yank presence in, and on the fringe of, BA is NOT necessarilly capability driven. Brit/EU pilots "can" do the job without "ex-pat" experience in the left or right seat. The MARKET drives the acquisition of crew (just ask Jerry O'S.). Why else can ACMI (Aircraft, Crew, Mx and Insurance) operators thrive. Even "good" airlines need help temporarilly.
The closed shop mentality has done much more harm to the industry than a few "lost commands to the .... ptui.... Americans". This applies to companies on BOTH sides of the pond.
Try a little introspection .... NO-ONE likes being passed over for upgrade, especially because of an "outsider". Remember, before YOU joined the company, YOU were one of those too, regardless of the post code of your birth.
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Kato 747 this thread may have started out bad in your opinion, but as GSS, the BACC, BALPA and the IPF are all of a basically similar opinion that GSS was formed to do this work, so therefore the work should not go elsewhere, it can't be all that bad. This isn't xenophobic, I'm sorry you missed the point, yes it is about job protectionism, something the Americans are much better at than the British.
BACC doesn't really want it's freight flown by GSS nevermind Atlas, but we already have had this argument, and GSS was the result so why bypass it now?
BACC doesn't really want it's freight flown by GSS nevermind Atlas, but we already have had this argument, and GSS was the result so why bypass it now?
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Before the JAA license was a fact one had to have a UK ATPL to gett a job as a ex-pat and on top of that one had to have the passport to in order to get in front of the cue.
Recent devellopment in Europe have revealed the egocentric position of the Brits once more, today you are paying a price for that behaviour and I really feel no pitty whatsoever.
I would even add, at least the yanks know how to fly.
Recent devellopment in Europe have revealed the egocentric position of the Brits once more, today you are paying a price for that behaviour and I really feel no pitty whatsoever.
I would even add, at least the yanks know how to fly.
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Sigmund.
If you had stayed up all night and tried you couldn't have done a better job of missing the point of the thread.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't know any BA/GSS history.
Its got
all to do with Yanks vs Eurpoeans or whose the best suited.
Actaully I'd rather see Yanks flying for GSS than ex BA -400 training Captains, some on pensions of over Ł120000pa (fact- source BALPA), prostituting themselves as -400 captains at GSS for Ł60000 a year thereby suppressing the pay in longhaul cargo.
Just because your wives can't stand you at home don't drag the pay down for the rest of the industry.
NN
If you had stayed up all night and tried you couldn't have done a better job of missing the point of the thread.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't know any BA/GSS history.
Its got
all to do with Yanks vs Eurpoeans or whose the best suited.Actaully I'd rather see Yanks flying for GSS than ex BA -400 training Captains, some on pensions of over Ł120000pa (fact- source BALPA), prostituting themselves as -400 captains at GSS for Ł60000 a year thereby suppressing the pay in longhaul cargo.
Just because your wives can't stand you at home don't drag the pay down for the rest of the industry.
NN
Last edited by normal_nigel; 24th Jul 2004 at 16:17.
Cap 56,
Having read your epistles concerning EK I would recommend that you keep your "pitty" to yourself. I don't like to criticise spelling but you really do ask for it.
I can see both sides of the GSS/BA feelings here and would have thought that perhaps the % of upgrades from each side could be adjusted but hardly see the point of giving away the jobs overseas!
Don't laugh, edited for spelling.
Kato747, Now you know why I don't like to criticise spelling!
Having read your epistles concerning EK I would recommend that you keep your "pitty" to yourself. I don't like to criticise spelling but you really do ask for it.
I can see both sides of the GSS/BA feelings here and would have thought that perhaps the % of upgrades from each side could be adjusted but hardly see the point of giving away the jobs overseas!
Don't laugh, edited for spelling.
Kato747, Now you know why I don't like to criticise spelling!
Last edited by BusyB; 23rd Jul 2004 at 16:07.
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ILLUMINI25: I am sorry if i hit a nerve regarding those organisations devised to combat the terrible injustices of the "demon corporate" but you must realize that no-one should ever have to denigrate another ethnic, national, or even sexual group concerning the "LOSS" of command seats. My friend, it is all down to the PERSON filling that seat and NOT the license.
Companies will fill their seats with the person who is willing to do the job for the remuneration offered. Our job, as mere mortals, is to gain the experience demanded-- and NOT, repeat NOT,-- ever try to make our F/Os have to pay for the mis-deeds and self-proclaimed piety of a few "Commanders" we have had to endure to get there.
As a Yank, I appreciate the existence of the "job protectionism" you so willingly espouse. I am standing up to say it's wrong! What are you doing to fix the problem....without fixing the blame?
CAP56: Thanks for the vote of confidence regarding New World aviation expertise, but I have also seen Cowboy-ism, ad nauseum, from "some" of my compatriots who have NOT A CLUE how the real world operates. Damn me for being a devoted Internationalist, but never, ever, try to make me out a fool.
Regardless of how you view the relative merits of the licensing philosophies between FAA and CAA/JAR, I must admit I did not pursue a type rating on my FAA ATP. I elected instead to bite the bullet and complete the CAA/JAA courses because of the increased possibility of employment where I wanted to retire from the USAF. Yes, and woefully, most Yank companies, discriminate based upon where you reside. One goes to where the money is, based on his, or her, personal situation.
BusyB: Could? and criticise? there are spell checkers available.... just thought you might need to check one out before you start admonishing others on use of the "Queen's English"!
Sorry BusyB:
Better a stray "coukld" than a "cuckold", eh what?
You were very quick to edit "criticise"....well done!
Companies will fill their seats with the person who is willing to do the job for the remuneration offered. Our job, as mere mortals, is to gain the experience demanded-- and NOT, repeat NOT,-- ever try to make our F/Os have to pay for the mis-deeds and self-proclaimed piety of a few "Commanders" we have had to endure to get there.
As a Yank, I appreciate the existence of the "job protectionism" you so willingly espouse. I am standing up to say it's wrong! What are you doing to fix the problem....without fixing the blame?
CAP56: Thanks for the vote of confidence regarding New World aviation expertise, but I have also seen Cowboy-ism, ad nauseum, from "some" of my compatriots who have NOT A CLUE how the real world operates. Damn me for being a devoted Internationalist, but never, ever, try to make me out a fool.
Regardless of how you view the relative merits of the licensing philosophies between FAA and CAA/JAR, I must admit I did not pursue a type rating on my FAA ATP. I elected instead to bite the bullet and complete the CAA/JAA courses because of the increased possibility of employment where I wanted to retire from the USAF. Yes, and woefully, most Yank companies, discriminate based upon where you reside. One goes to where the money is, based on his, or her, personal situation.
BusyB: Could? and criticise? there are spell checkers available.... just thought you might need to check one out before you start admonishing others on use of the "Queen's English"!
Sorry BusyB:
Better a stray "coukld" than a "cuckold", eh what?
You were very quick to edit "criticise"....well done!
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BA Cargo/GSS Latest?
What became of the BA/Atlas thread?
I know Atlas/GSS were appling to the UK govt to get a 747-200 crewed by US pilots based in UK. Can't imagine anyone getting away with that stateside but anyone know what happened in the end?
I know Atlas/GSS were appling to the UK govt to get a 747-200 crewed by US pilots based in UK. Can't imagine anyone getting away with that stateside but anyone know what happened in the end?
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Well there's plenty of BA versus GSS bickering going on here. While you've been scratching each others eyes out, BA have been granted approval by the CAA to bring in an Atlas Air classic -entirely US crewed so offering no jobs or commands to either BA or GSS pilots. great work!
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Come on, 411A, wasn't this subject battered to death about 3 years ago. Same sh@t, different year.
Only thing missing is Guvnor and some of the more feisty Atlas guys.
Great entertainment though.
Only thing missing is Guvnor and some of the more feisty Atlas guys.
Great entertainment though.
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411a I'm 100% in agreement with you. The answer to your question is that we Brits are a spineless and apathetic bunch in situations like this. I don't blame any atlas pilot at all. But why isn't EVERY BA and GSS pilot who stands to lose out writing to his MP, local paper, CAA and Department for Transport?
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To be fair, you´re wasting your time. I was one of 5 people that objected to BA wet lease of Sabena flights between LHR and BRU a couple of years ago. Got the stock CAA reply that it is good for UK aviation. Even when I pointed out UK pilots were sat at home unemployed , I got the impression minds had been made up and that was that. Most of us don´t waste our time now and just fester inside the company.
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Those that think management cares about the pilots involved are having an illusion.
There are some contracts and whatever makes the goods go from A to B will happen.
Aviation Business is a world without emotions just dollars and quick and easy solutions.
I do not like it at all but that's the way it is, in the UK even more than in continental Europe.
But if one claims that the crews have to be fit in order to be safe then ignoring basic human feelings becomes a matter of concern.
Aviation is a harsh world and I guess dealing with it is one of the traits of the pilot that wants to survive in this world today.
There are some contracts and whatever makes the goods go from A to B will happen.
Aviation Business is a world without emotions just dollars and quick and easy solutions.
I do not like it at all but that's the way it is, in the UK even more than in continental Europe.
But if one claims that the crews have to be fit in order to be safe then ignoring basic human feelings becomes a matter of concern.
Aviation is a harsh world and I guess dealing with it is one of the traits of the pilot that wants to survive in this world today.
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I think you'll find that ultimately it's the Department of Timidity and Inactivity that makes the decision, not the CAA. At the end of the day it's a Governmental decision. It wouldn't happen in France.
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Well that's exactly the point maxi and pom. If this was France or the USA it wouldn't be 5 pilots who wrote letters -it would be 50 or 150.
If we don't stick up for ourselves as a professional group, nobody else will.
If we don't stick up for ourselves as a professional group, nobody else will.
