Censorship - Please stop Airline Security SOP's being posted on this site.
ex-Tanker
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Luton Beds UK
Posts: 907
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, as I mentioned in the thread about cockpit doors, this is war.
There are a few things which can be done by companies/crews. In a previous company these were in the handbook and got amended from time to time. In the services, when this happens, the old pages are to be destroyed. In the airline business this is not so. I managed in that airline to get the pages striped with a red line to make people more aware of this.
The few available tactics are of extreme interest to a hijacker - his success depends upon accurate knowledge. Company recommendations, which may vary from resistance of some kind, to obeying the hijacker (that one wouldn't have helped in the WRT case) to fancy comm. or systems use
are classified information, much as a military base has to keep its measures secure.
I am afraid this takes time to sink in but as in the days of civilian ships carrying some form of defence against piratry, the airline industry needs to be aware and regard its security measures cnfidential, if not secret. This is not an over reaction, rather has there been an under reaction previously.
There are a few things which can be done by companies/crews. In a previous company these were in the handbook and got amended from time to time. In the services, when this happens, the old pages are to be destroyed. In the airline business this is not so. I managed in that airline to get the pages striped with a red line to make people more aware of this.
The few available tactics are of extreme interest to a hijacker - his success depends upon accurate knowledge. Company recommendations, which may vary from resistance of some kind, to obeying the hijacker (that one wouldn't have helped in the WRT case) to fancy comm. or systems use
are classified information, much as a military base has to keep its measures secure.
I am afraid this takes time to sink in but as in the days of civilian ships carrying some form of defence against piratry, the airline industry needs to be aware and regard its security measures cnfidential, if not secret. This is not an over reaction, rather has there been an under reaction previously.
dragonslayer extraordinaire
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Danny
Just want to tell you I agree 100%.
pprune is a great site for us professionals ( and not-quite-professionals) to have constructive, light-hearted and sometimes timewasting discussions about a variety of important and utterly unimportant subjects...
...but any terrorist who would have to rely on the information posted here would certainly reduce their chance of success by quite a margin and should consider a carreer change ( as should all terrorists for that matter)
we have all been deeply touched by the events and it is a good thing that we start questionning our own standarts for safety, but we should keep a cool head and see this site as what it is... a very necessary forum for discussion amongst fellow professionals, not more, not less.
Just want to tell you I agree 100%.
pprune is a great site for us professionals ( and not-quite-professionals) to have constructive, light-hearted and sometimes timewasting discussions about a variety of important and utterly unimportant subjects...
...but any terrorist who would have to rely on the information posted here would certainly reduce their chance of success by quite a margin and should consider a carreer change ( as should all terrorists for that matter)
we have all been deeply touched by the events and it is a good thing that we start questionning our own standarts for safety, but we should keep a cool head and see this site as what it is... a very necessary forum for discussion amongst fellow professionals, not more, not less.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Somewhere probing
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Danny & Co. are right, imho.
There have, as we all know been many advances in aviation security measures, e.g. pax, crew and baggage screening, etc.. but as has been said, perhaps the only way to stop this from happening is to stop the nutters from getting to the aircraft in the first place - and that is a neigh on impossible task to do.
E.g. How do you know that an apparently bonefide airline pilot (i.e. any one of us) is not some convert to and / or 'sleeper' within a religious sect (of what ever denomination) poised to strike when the command is receive from the sect leader ? Indeed, there could be dozens like that !
And it doesn't take a security specialist (what ever that is) to figure out that a pilot so inclined, sitting in the flight-deck of a shiny jet, would find it only too easy to lock the flight deck door, kill the other bloke (could use the crash axe, or garrotte them with a shoe lace ?), and fly the aircraft into what ever target the sect has chosen - and with a lot more accuracy than was exhibited last week. So what's to do, ban all flight crew ?
And ****** me, it doesn't even need an airliner. Your average PPL'er has enough aircraft & fuel to do serious damage, if the need takes them ! So perhaps we should we ban ALL aviation, just in case ?
Let's accordingly please keep away from knee-jerk reactions or ridiculously stupid hypothesising, and long live PPRuNe !
Ps. As me old mum used to say, "There's non so righteous as the newly converted", and that's too true !
There have, as we all know been many advances in aviation security measures, e.g. pax, crew and baggage screening, etc.. but as has been said, perhaps the only way to stop this from happening is to stop the nutters from getting to the aircraft in the first place - and that is a neigh on impossible task to do.
E.g. How do you know that an apparently bonefide airline pilot (i.e. any one of us) is not some convert to and / or 'sleeper' within a religious sect (of what ever denomination) poised to strike when the command is receive from the sect leader ? Indeed, there could be dozens like that !
And it doesn't take a security specialist (what ever that is) to figure out that a pilot so inclined, sitting in the flight-deck of a shiny jet, would find it only too easy to lock the flight deck door, kill the other bloke (could use the crash axe, or garrotte them with a shoe lace ?), and fly the aircraft into what ever target the sect has chosen - and with a lot more accuracy than was exhibited last week. So what's to do, ban all flight crew ?
And ****** me, it doesn't even need an airliner. Your average PPL'er has enough aircraft & fuel to do serious damage, if the need takes them ! So perhaps we should we ban ALL aviation, just in case ?
Let's accordingly please keep away from knee-jerk reactions or ridiculously stupid hypothesising, and long live PPRuNe !
Ps. As me old mum used to say, "There's non so righteous as the newly converted", and that's too true !
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Airborne
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Danny
If your response to the letter you posted was to the Writer and not to the CAA that is my mistake.
My points, if you would re read them are specific to stopping measures activley being put into place by airlines in response to these events being posted on this site, especially when the airline is named.
This information is confidential, unless that airline chooses to publish them. Again Manuals have always been open as has the cockpit door, we all agree that things have to change, and that included the availability of such privellaged information in the public domain.
All I ask of you is that your organisation commits to keeping what is confidential privellaged information that way. That has nothing to do with balanced and open discussion about the way forward which takes place on this site, for which this is a great site as I have said before.
Lastly on a positive note you have a huge audience, why not use it in a positive, forward mannor and get all pilots who visit this site to start to petiton, In our case to BALPA and the DOT for increased security for the cockpit along the lines many have suggested.
As I said right at the begining of this thread, it is really just a common sense and responsible approach and far from a "Hysterical Overreaction" and wish to shutdown PPrune.
[ 18 September 2001: Message edited by: flybythread ]
If your response to the letter you posted was to the Writer and not to the CAA that is my mistake.
My points, if you would re read them are specific to stopping measures activley being put into place by airlines in response to these events being posted on this site, especially when the airline is named.
This information is confidential, unless that airline chooses to publish them. Again Manuals have always been open as has the cockpit door, we all agree that things have to change, and that included the availability of such privellaged information in the public domain.
All I ask of you is that your organisation commits to keeping what is confidential privellaged information that way. That has nothing to do with balanced and open discussion about the way forward which takes place on this site, for which this is a great site as I have said before.
Lastly on a positive note you have a huge audience, why not use it in a positive, forward mannor and get all pilots who visit this site to start to petiton, In our case to BALPA and the DOT for increased security for the cockpit along the lines many have suggested.
As I said right at the begining of this thread, it is really just a common sense and responsible approach and far from a "Hysterical Overreaction" and wish to shutdown PPrune.
[ 18 September 2001: Message edited by: flybythread ]
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you PPRuNe moderators for your common sense approach to this. It makes a change to some of the hysterical rantings of some contributors.
If only a certain Bin Laden had such moderate common sense - then this tragedy would never have happened.
It is also easy to blame scurity. For sure it was not good on internal US flights but the enormous hatred required for these acts defies all normal belief.
If only a certain Bin Laden had such moderate common sense - then this tragedy would never have happened.
It is also easy to blame scurity. For sure it was not good on internal US flights but the enormous hatred required for these acts defies all normal belief.
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
Please note that we have always monitored these forums for idiots who would go beyond what is considered normal and breach security issues. We are responsible and we do remove posts where the poster has breached anything we consider as sensitive and not freely available.
So far though, everything being discussed is in the public domain and it is only issues which are obvious to anyone with any common sense. You can go into any bookstore and purchase flight manuals and books on security issues that all contain some of the information discussed in these topics including explanations of transponder codes and their uses and many other issues.
If anyone is irresponsible enough to discuss security issues that are not commonly known about and are classified as restricted then we will remove them and as well as block the foolish berson making more posts and if necessary provide their details to the police or security services so that they can take appropriate measures to contain any leaks. So far though that has not happened and the frenzy of attacks on the right of us as pilots to discuss issues that affect us only goes to show how some people overreact in times of crisis.
If anyone has constructive ideas that they feel should not be discussed on a public forum then I am sure someone here will provide the necessary addresses, either snail mail or email where they can be sent for consideration.
So far though, everything being discussed is in the public domain and it is only issues which are obvious to anyone with any common sense. You can go into any bookstore and purchase flight manuals and books on security issues that all contain some of the information discussed in these topics including explanations of transponder codes and their uses and many other issues.
If anyone is irresponsible enough to discuss security issues that are not commonly known about and are classified as restricted then we will remove them and as well as block the foolish berson making more posts and if necessary provide their details to the police or security services so that they can take appropriate measures to contain any leaks. So far though that has not happened and the frenzy of attacks on the right of us as pilots to discuss issues that affect us only goes to show how some people overreact in times of crisis.
If anyone has constructive ideas that they feel should not be discussed on a public forum then I am sure someone here will provide the necessary addresses, either snail mail or email where they can be sent for consideration.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Airborne
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks
It took a while but that was all I was after, just so some of the fellows out there know where the line is and the possible consequences if they disclose what they should not.
It took a while but that was all I was after, just so some of the fellows out there know where the line is and the possible consequences if they disclose what they should not.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: London
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Danny
Whilst letter to SRG may be an angry reaction, there is a point that there is possibly some risk from this collective pool of information here.
Some one suggested that you, at least, insist upon full identification of people posting - you and your moderators keeping this information private and stored. They can still continue in relative anonymity but with the knowledge that their identities could be revealed if approached legally for such information.
I think that must be the way forward - to protect yourself, if anything.
Whilst letter to SRG may be an angry reaction, there is a point that there is possibly some risk from this collective pool of information here.
Some one suggested that you, at least, insist upon full identification of people posting - you and your moderators keeping this information private and stored. They can still continue in relative anonymity but with the knowledge that their identities could be revealed if approached legally for such information.
I think that must be the way forward - to protect yourself, if anything.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: somewhere near you
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree perfectly. As I said in a similair post, if the terrorists spent years and years preparing ( as it appears they did ) they probably knew more about airport security etc than some security experts and most pilots. Do you every SOP by heart? And every loop hole in the security? They are the ones they probably could have posted sensitive information. The stuff on Pprune ( no insult ) was probably lesson 1, day 1.
Rob
Rob
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Belgium
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shutting down pprune? I can't possibly see what good that's going to do.
Regardless of some of the people postings here, I am still convinced that all ATP's are wise enough not to discuss security subjects in to that extent that it could be off use to people planning criminal acts on a modern airliner.
What are these people thinking, wanting to stop pprune. After that they may demand to prohibit pilots of having conversations among one another outside of secure areas. No more hanging at the pub guys.
And what about the security hazard of all those PC flight simulators which go to such detail these days, that one can learn to control it's systems (I didn't say fly it!
)on it.
Like all the moderators have so eloquenlty put, you can easily find a lot more detailed information on the net and other sources. We just have to count on everyones good judgement on this and for all the rest I trust Danny and his team.
ADM
Regardless of some of the people postings here, I am still convinced that all ATP's are wise enough not to discuss security subjects in to that extent that it could be off use to people planning criminal acts on a modern airliner.
What are these people thinking, wanting to stop pprune. After that they may demand to prohibit pilots of having conversations among one another outside of secure areas. No more hanging at the pub guys.
And what about the security hazard of all those PC flight simulators which go to such detail these days, that one can learn to control it's systems (I didn't say fly it!
)on it. Like all the moderators have so eloquenlty put, you can easily find a lot more detailed information on the net and other sources. We just have to count on everyones good judgement on this and for all the rest I trust Danny and his team.
ADM
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: London - UK
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a quick reply. IP addressed can be forged, or more specifically you can 'borrow' someone elses - which therefore means using a trace of the IP address useless - check out any remailing server.
Up until a few years ago, you could send a book containing strong encryption codes out of the US - but you couldn't send software which used these codes, therefore it was possible to code your own encryption software!!!! The CIA are (as I understand it) beleived to have intercepted a number of emails from these terrorists but, as they used a high level of encryption they didn't have enough time to crack it. Now if these people have got such a level of encryption that it is going to take the CIA a few days to crack, why would they need to be reading posts on air line security? Surly flying and being alert be more than enough to work it out?
Oh, and as for MS Flight Sim? Tch!
And I aplogise if I've wound anyone up with this reply!
Up until a few years ago, you could send a book containing strong encryption codes out of the US - but you couldn't send software which used these codes, therefore it was possible to code your own encryption software!!!! The CIA are (as I understand it) beleived to have intercepted a number of emails from these terrorists but, as they used a high level of encryption they didn't have enough time to crack it. Now if these people have got such a level of encryption that it is going to take the CIA a few days to crack, why would they need to be reading posts on air line security? Surly flying and being alert be more than enough to work it out?
Oh, and as for MS Flight Sim? Tch!
And I aplogise if I've wound anyone up with this reply!
Dir. PPRuNe Line Service
Clear IT IN! - with over 500 people each week joining PPRuNe there is no way whatsoever we could verify each and every person's identity.
---Mik
---Mik
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Midlands, UK
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having noticed time and time again some views criticising this well maintained forum for being against the aviations' interest, I cant stay quiet any longer.
I am truly shocked and angry at these views. This forum is a resource aimed at doing good, and as Danny stated any determined persons who might want to use any information on this site for doing terrible things is able to find even better info elsewhere (unfortunately).
In the advent of the internet era there will always be sources of dangerous information, however this site is not one of them.
Why not criticise the BBC News online for telling Bin Laden that we're after him? Now hes able to scurry away and hide under a rock.
I think if there are any problems with security in the Airlines, then if anything, this site can put them right. Tell the world where the airline industry is wrong and it will likely try to correct it. What better way to quickly get something done?
(ok, not such a good idea if someone uses this info before security is patched up, but hey, its a difficult area)
Monkey See Monkey Do
'ahh, ok I feel better'
I am truly shocked and angry at these views. This forum is a resource aimed at doing good, and as Danny stated any determined persons who might want to use any information on this site for doing terrible things is able to find even better info elsewhere (unfortunately).
In the advent of the internet era there will always be sources of dangerous information, however this site is not one of them.
Why not criticise the BBC News online for telling Bin Laden that we're after him? Now hes able to scurry away and hide under a rock.
I think if there are any problems with security in the Airlines, then if anything, this site can put them right. Tell the world where the airline industry is wrong and it will likely try to correct it. What better way to quickly get something done?
(ok, not such a good idea if someone uses this info before security is patched up, but hey, its a difficult area)
Monkey See Monkey Do
'ahh, ok I feel better'
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have seen a copy of the letter referred to by Captain Pprune and would you believe it there is actually an ulterior motive at play here!
The author is someone who was exposed on PPrune several years ago after he failed to respond to a depressurisation and carried on flying under the assumption that the warning sound was something to do with the landing gear until the cabin crew informed him that it was difficult trying to do a service in the cabin with the rubber jungle hanging down. Allegedly he had been given a job as a line trainer based on some porkies about his previous experience.
If this person is now a DLTR approved aviation security instructor and works as an airline security officer then maybe the agencies involved in vetting these impostors should do their homework a bit more thoroughly.
Maybe this silly person has just made another error of judgement and will explain to us here on PPrune why he really wants this website closed down.
I am an airline captain working from London Heathrow airport. I am writing to you in light of the abhorrent terrorist act that has been committed in the United States of America. I have watched the events unfold with quite a concerned interest. Whilst not claiming to be an aviation security expert, I do have more than an informed view on these matters - I am a DLTR approved aviation security instructor and work as an airline security officer. I feel that there is an urgent issue that needs bringing to your attention.
I am very concerned about the Internet web site PPRuNe - Professional Pilots Rumour Network – www.pprune.org <http://www.pprune.org/> - and the security implications of this site.
I am very concerned about the Internet web site PPRuNe - Professional Pilots Rumour Network – www.pprune.org <http://www.pprune.org/> - and the security implications of this site.
If this person is now a DLTR approved aviation security instructor and works as an airline security officer then maybe the agencies involved in vetting these impostors should do their homework a bit more thoroughly.
Maybe this silly person has just made another error of judgement and will explain to us here on PPrune why he really wants this website closed down.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Canada
Age: 68
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sir Algernon Scruggs: thanks for that info. it makes sense of the drivel that this man has posted!
I find it hard to believe that anyone can see a threat to security on PPRuNe. I have never read a thread here that I believed to be close to the bone.
Any airlines security is impossible to keep secret, staff come and go and manuals get trashed and not destroyed etc. etc..
I will probably be attacked for this but it is my belief that advertising ones security, to a point, will keep the criminal element away, as they will seek softer targets. Hence security camera notices on private houses and commercial concerns.
I find it hard to believe that anyone can see a threat to security on PPRuNe. I have never read a thread here that I believed to be close to the bone.
Any airlines security is impossible to keep secret, staff come and go and manuals get trashed and not destroyed etc. etc..
I will probably be attacked for this but it is my belief that advertising ones security, to a point, will keep the criminal element away, as they will seek softer targets. Hence security camera notices on private houses and commercial concerns.
Join Date: Apr 1998
Location: 18m N of LGW
Posts: 945
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh dear! How embarrassing for a "Captain" working at LHR, as a DLTR approved security "expert" to be exposed as an alledged fraudster by the inscrutable Sir Algernon Scruggs!
How much homework did THIS security agency do then - when they gave this stupid person his approval?
Oh well, I must get the eggs out again - damn I shall have to go to the supermarket I haven't got enough for a king size omellette!
Oh btw! I support Sir Algernon's request that you state EXACTLY why YOU want PPRuNe shut down. No-one else does.
How much homework did THIS security agency do then - when they gave this stupid person his approval?
Oh well, I must get the eggs out again - damn I shall have to go to the supermarket I haven't got enough for a king size omellette!
Oh btw! I support Sir Algernon's request that you state EXACTLY why YOU want PPRuNe shut down. No-one else does.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I know it sounds selfish but I have to admit I was kinda upset about not being able to visit the flightdeck anymore and enjoy the company of all those lovely FR pilots till I realised that Maxalt was a FR driver
Think I'd be safer not being up there
Emerald
Think I'd be safer not being up there
Emerald
