Saudia plane catches fire
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For an airline that is proud of its training (average 9 months to bring a rated skipper on line), Saudia displays rather poor standards, as their records indicate. Look at their incidents, and you know that the training is a farce. 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: KSA
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think we need to be too hard on Saudia. They don't suffer from drunks or air-rage onboard their flights originating from Kingdom. The new non-smoking flights are excellent until the cabin crew sneek off for a cigarette in the toilets! (Smoke alarms disabled - never!!) One of the best things though on international legs you generally have the majority of the aircraft to yourself.
Guest
Posts: n/a
DaggerDirk - that was what I thought as well, (I've long had a keen interest in Kapton matters) which was why I brought up the Saudia fire.
LMSC said no, it wasn't Kapton - it was something in the luggage. Pull the other one, I said - bearing in mind that was what SAA and Boeing said about the Helderberg which is now 90% certain to have been Kapton. Nope, really, was the response and they showed the detailed investigation report including photos.
In the case of wire arc tracking, the temperature is extremely high (10,000 deg C) that it has the same effect as a thermite lance. In other words, extreme concentrated energy.
In the case of the Saudia L1011, that wasn't the case - there was a fairly sizeable hole burnt in the cabin floor, and from the damage to bags, it certainly looked as if it had originated in the baggage rather than above, where the wiring bundles are located. Of course, the wiring (along with the floor or the aircraft and as you can see from the photo much of the upper fuselage) was melted in the fire.
As I said previously, the fire department's raking out of the baggage holds meant that precisely identifying the ignitor was not possible. The LMSC guy thought that it was quite probably something as basic as a box of matches - the old 'ignite-anywhere' Swan Vesta type.
I have, however, copied the Panorama transcript and forwarded it on the LMSC - we'll see what they have to say!
LMSC said no, it wasn't Kapton - it was something in the luggage. Pull the other one, I said - bearing in mind that was what SAA and Boeing said about the Helderberg which is now 90% certain to have been Kapton. Nope, really, was the response and they showed the detailed investigation report including photos.
In the case of wire arc tracking, the temperature is extremely high (10,000 deg C) that it has the same effect as a thermite lance. In other words, extreme concentrated energy.
In the case of the Saudia L1011, that wasn't the case - there was a fairly sizeable hole burnt in the cabin floor, and from the damage to bags, it certainly looked as if it had originated in the baggage rather than above, where the wiring bundles are located. Of course, the wiring (along with the floor or the aircraft and as you can see from the photo much of the upper fuselage) was melted in the fire.
As I said previously, the fire department's raking out of the baggage holds meant that precisely identifying the ignitor was not possible. The LMSC guy thought that it was quite probably something as basic as a box of matches - the old 'ignite-anywhere' Swan Vesta type.
I have, however, copied the Panorama transcript and forwarded it on the LMSC - we'll see what they have to say!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was actually working in Jeddah in the maintenance hgr during the incident involving HK.The ironic thing about the whole thing was a week previously the same acft was in the hgr for a C check when a fire broke out in the stores area resulting in the whole place being evacuated.The acft was dragged out without even bothering to move the stands that were around it,luckily no damage was sustained for what it was worth.
After the accident in Rhyadh we were all warned that anyone caught discussing the possible cause would be arrested and immediately deported.
After the accident in Rhyadh we were all warned that anyone caught discussing the possible cause would be arrested and immediately deported.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of the more popular opionions regarding the cause of the fire was a pin prick hole in the hyd lines in the aft bulk cargo,which caused a finely atomised spray onto electrical connections which were located in the same area.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
propellor---
<....their training is a farce.>
And, you would of course have worked for SV?
I certainly did, for 10 years, all on the L10. The training was most certainly not a farce and indeed was quite demanding.
Where, prey tell, do you get your infinate wisdom?
<....their training is a farce.>
And, you would of course have worked for SV?
I certainly did, for 10 years, all on the L10. The training was most certainly not a farce and indeed was quite demanding.
Where, prey tell, do you get your infinate wisdom?
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: BC
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411, you are correct. Those stars that you wear on your shoulders and the ones above the jacket braid, are NOT gifts. I have never worked so hard to get through a course in my life. Everything else said, the training is tough. Try passing the oral exams. The line training is no snap. Its just too bad that the rest of the structure doesn't support it. The majority of the F/Os are excellent pilots. I may not have a lot to say that is good about them, but the flight training was demanding.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A.
Maybe I hurt your sentiments, but I do stand by my conviction. I am full of praise for some of my former colleagues there, but the less said about the training the better.
SV bases the training and checking extensively on memorization of information that is easily accessible, and less on referencing and logic. This policy, of laying emphasis on learning by heart, has been discarded by almost all other organisations and for good reasons, too. (I admit to little knowledge of astronaut training by NASA).
Committing to memory gives the operator the confidence of ‘know-all’, which then leads to complacency.
Besides it also makes life in the training system more difficult for those with a scientific bent of mind: those who do not remember items in the book as they are indexed, but with an overall view and with a thorough understanding of the contents and their essence. On the other hand, it promotes those with a photographic memory, mistaking it for superior airmanship qualities.
You are confusing ‘demanding’ and strenuous training as good quality training. Then, like 777AV8R wrote about the tough Oral Exams. A day’s oral exam on a subject like meteorology! Come on, grow up – is that exam a good thing? Conducted by a one-man board; and the examiner questioning the pilot straight out of an open book?
Mind you, all the exams, especially the orals, may not be above board.
Take the failures: three failures in the full career span, and the pilot is out of the company! These include the oral exams as well.
Even if the pilot is an old hand with the company, he is treated like a second officer or even worse, when he converts to the next airplane. The conversion lasts for about 9 months again, the third failure in his career hangs over his head, and it is vengeance time from his former First Officers, who would have become training Captains on the next fleet by then.
The flying standards are not so demanding. Rather, the flying is in one of the best aviation climates anywhere. Rare thunderstorms, long runways, and a good ATC and navigation network. Just the heat is stifling for a few months. The routes, especially out of the kingdom, are good, too.
The silver lining is that after the pilot has been dragged over the coals, in training, he is practically scot-free.
While I admit that this topic, on the recent in-flight fire, is not the appropriate forum for the discussion on the training in SV, I couldn’t help posting a reply. I would refrain from any further discussion on this topic here.
BTW, 411A, re.“Where, prey tell, do you get your infinate wisdom?”, I hate being referred to as ‘Prey’, and especially by one who makes two errors in one sentence!
Rgds.
Maybe I hurt your sentiments, but I do stand by my conviction. I am full of praise for some of my former colleagues there, but the less said about the training the better.
SV bases the training and checking extensively on memorization of information that is easily accessible, and less on referencing and logic. This policy, of laying emphasis on learning by heart, has been discarded by almost all other organisations and for good reasons, too. (I admit to little knowledge of astronaut training by NASA).
Committing to memory gives the operator the confidence of ‘know-all’, which then leads to complacency.
Besides it also makes life in the training system more difficult for those with a scientific bent of mind: those who do not remember items in the book as they are indexed, but with an overall view and with a thorough understanding of the contents and their essence. On the other hand, it promotes those with a photographic memory, mistaking it for superior airmanship qualities.
You are confusing ‘demanding’ and strenuous training as good quality training. Then, like 777AV8R wrote about the tough Oral Exams. A day’s oral exam on a subject like meteorology! Come on, grow up – is that exam a good thing? Conducted by a one-man board; and the examiner questioning the pilot straight out of an open book?
Mind you, all the exams, especially the orals, may not be above board.
Take the failures: three failures in the full career span, and the pilot is out of the company! These include the oral exams as well.
Even if the pilot is an old hand with the company, he is treated like a second officer or even worse, when he converts to the next airplane. The conversion lasts for about 9 months again, the third failure in his career hangs over his head, and it is vengeance time from his former First Officers, who would have become training Captains on the next fleet by then.
The flying standards are not so demanding. Rather, the flying is in one of the best aviation climates anywhere. Rare thunderstorms, long runways, and a good ATC and navigation network. Just the heat is stifling for a few months. The routes, especially out of the kingdom, are good, too.
The silver lining is that after the pilot has been dragged over the coals, in training, he is practically scot-free.
While I admit that this topic, on the recent in-flight fire, is not the appropriate forum for the discussion on the training in SV, I couldn’t help posting a reply. I would refrain from any further discussion on this topic here.
BTW, 411A, re.“Where, prey tell, do you get your infinate wisdom?”, I hate being referred to as ‘Prey’, and especially by one who makes two errors in one sentence!
Rgds.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to bring this back to the topic......
AFAIK, the aircraft had a fire warning in flight, the engine was shut down and the light extingushed. The fire warning came back on after landing, the crew were unable to contact the surrounding fire department officials and therefore ordered an evacuation.
Now I look forward to the continuing discussion on training standards......
Mutt
AFAIK, the aircraft had a fire warning in flight, the engine was shut down and the light extingushed. The fire warning came back on after landing, the crew were unable to contact the surrounding fire department officials and therefore ordered an evacuation.
Now I look forward to the continuing discussion on training standards......
Mutt
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mutt---
Ah yes, training standards, my forte.
SV in 1986, had an engine-rundown and torching incident in Cairo on a TriStar. The Captain carried out the required drill but mentioned later that the IFS (on her own) decided that an evac was required while taxiing. This never happened as she broke her fingernail on the evac switch (thanks to GOOD safety wire).
Question: what sort of procedures are these guys/gals given now?
propellor--
Did you, by any chance, fail your course?
Many did, and then had NOTHING good to say about it afterwords.
Ah yes, training standards, my forte.
SV in 1986, had an engine-rundown and torching incident in Cairo on a TriStar. The Captain carried out the required drill but mentioned later that the IFS (on her own) decided that an evac was required while taxiing. This never happened as she broke her fingernail on the evac switch (thanks to GOOD safety wire).
Question: what sort of procedures are these guys/gals given now?
propellor--
Did you, by any chance, fail your course?
Many did, and then had NOTHING good to say about it afterwords.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A.
No, I did not fail the training.
BTW, 1080 postings in 16 months!
Don't you have any other thing to do?
Unless you are retired, and refuse to "hang your gloves".
All of us have to face the predicament one day, and I am sure almost all will exit gracefully.
Get the hint?
No, I did not fail the training.
BTW, 1080 postings in 16 months!
Don't you have any other thing to do?
Unless you are retired, and refuse to "hang your gloves".
All of us have to face the predicament one day, and I am sure almost all will exit gracefully.
Get the hint?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Earth
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good day ladies and gentlemen,
This is my first contribution in Pprune and would like to greet everyone and thank our host.
Having just left the “Magic Kingdom” for greener pastures I would like to mention that the SV training in my opinion is definitely not the best of the world. However, I’d like to add that after 9 months of terror and truly stressful training, any pilot that survives it is definitely above average and I have nothing but praise for the majority of my colleagues. As an expat with experience in 3 mayor airlines I must also say that the SV first officers are the most competent I’ve ever flown with. Unfortunately, SV has a major problem with their maintenance. The mechanics are people with good skills but cost cutting by management (no spares, no new training) leads to complacency (is it an MEL? Just write it in the logbook…
. I have never experienced so many technical problems and in flight emergencies as in the last few years of the Tri-Star before being replaced by the 777 (a third of the 23 SV 777s are normally grounded to provide spares for the other aircraft).
This is my first contribution in Pprune and would like to greet everyone and thank our host.
Having just left the “Magic Kingdom” for greener pastures I would like to mention that the SV training in my opinion is definitely not the best of the world. However, I’d like to add that after 9 months of terror and truly stressful training, any pilot that survives it is definitely above average and I have nothing but praise for the majority of my colleagues. As an expat with experience in 3 mayor airlines I must also say that the SV first officers are the most competent I’ve ever flown with. Unfortunately, SV has a major problem with their maintenance. The mechanics are people with good skills but cost cutting by management (no spares, no new training) leads to complacency (is it an MEL? Just write it in the logbook…
. I have never experienced so many technical problems and in flight emergencies as in the last few years of the Tri-Star before being replaced by the 777 (a third of the 23 SV 777s are normally grounded to provide spares for the other aircraft).
