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ITN news

Old 12th Mar 2002, 17:47
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ITN news is trotting out the total cr*p again today quoting some in depth research that we pilots reduce the airflow to the cabin to save fuel. When are the press going to get some proper advise on aviation matters and stop alarming the public. .Do any of you have trouble with the back button on Prune or is it just me
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 17:49
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Back button often doesn't work 1st time, 2nd go nearer the middle then works okay.. .. .Oh, by the way, reduced air flow on long haul flights definately reduces fuel bills !!. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 13:51: Message edited by: moleslayer ]</small>
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 17:57
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Moleslayer. .Thanks but please tell me how we can manipulate the airflow from the flight deck other than by switching a pack off which means we would have to decend and use more fuel???
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 18:02
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Monkee. .there is probably a grain of truth in the story as some airlines may reduce air change rates to minimise costs. However the press always love a good health scare and aviation is such an easy target. Why don't the airlines get their act together a bit more and start putting up their own experts to tell the other side of the story and put us in a good light. David Learmount does a pretty good job most of the time but he is not an expert on every single aspect of avaition - why can't we put some aeronautical engineers and health specialists on the box to tell it as it is?
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 18:09
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Fishbed,. .Thanks.. .The only way I know to do this on any aircraft I have flown would be to put the pressurisation in manual and close the outflow valve. But this in my experience is always an emergeny procedure only i.e in a decompression.. .I am not an engineer but I suppose the amount of bleed air from the engines could be adjusted in the hangar, but this would constitute a major a/c mod. Any engineers out there been asked to do this?
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 18:18
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The simplest way to reduce the flow of air into the aircraft I work on, would be to turn off the recirculation fans in flight . . . This would save fuel but is a non standard way of operating the aeroplane. Engineering would not be allowed to modify the flow controls valves purely to save money - this would not happen where I work and I would not want to be a party to it either. One of the big benefits in recent times to reduce maintenance costs and increase comfort levels has been the introduction of a total ban on smoking acroos the board.
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 18:20
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Moleslayer,. .Come on mate, tell us what you know, EXACTLY.
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 18:25
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Nilnotedthanks,. .Obviously you are an engineer. ITN news is in fact stating that one of the ways we save fuel is by using more recirculated air and thus expose the poor pax to possible disease like TB. Forgive my ignorance but if we turn off the recirc fans the engines are going to have to supply more bleed air and thus use more fuel. Is this not true?
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 18:26
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Monkee, it sounds as if you operate a two-pack aircraft. With three (or more) packs, one can be (and often is) switched off to save fuel without the need to descend etc.. .. .Nilnotedthanks, turning the recirc fans off will increase the flow of new air into the aircraft and increase fuel burn, not the other way round.
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 18:31
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It's pretty well known that High Bypass ratio engines are starved at cruise to feed air to the cabin. Primarily the very large ones(777, 767). The 777 and 767 have areas of the cabin in cruise that are suggested not to seat the old and very young because of several incidents of them passing out. The stews are told to watch people in those areas very closely. The 747 does not have this problem because it has 4 engines. From what I am told the 777 has the largest problem. I know they are working a fix to increase the circulation rate in the cabin. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />
 
Old 12th Mar 2002, 18:31
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Hew,. .Yes, I do operate two engined aircraft. I did once operate a triple but we never turned a pack off. If you turn a pack off on a 3 or more pac airplane, surely the other engines merely have to work harder, thus negating the fuel saving.
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 19:02
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Sorry Monkee, but ITN have probably got it right.. .On the older types we were always encouraged to operate with one of the three packs shut down (in theory to save fuel) and on the modern types the recirculation fans are required to run continuously to reduce the bleed demand from the engines (again to save fuel).. .. .The net result is to reduce the rate at which air is changed in the cabin and that, it can be argued, is not good for the long term health of our pax and cabin crew.. .. .Let us not forget that tuberculosis has made a return. As that can be transmitted through airborne particles..... . . . <small>[ 13 March 2002, 15:54: Message edited by: Lou Scannon ]</small>
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 19:18
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nilnoted thanks,. .. .Think you'll find turning off the recirc fans has the effect of increasing fuel burn.. .. .Taken from 757 MEL. .. .When one recirculation fan is turned off, or is inoperative, the pack automatically goes to the high flow mode thus increasing fuel burn. Flight planning fuel should be increased by 0.3 % when dispatching with one recirculation fan inoperative.. . . . <small>[ 12 March 2002, 15:19: Message edited by: Golden Rivet ]</small>
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 19:36
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I fly the 757/767 series....and routinely turn the Recirc fans off on long haul (over three hours flight time). .. .When my seniority only allowed my to fly USA transcons, I found that I had a lot more "medical emergencies" with pax going on 02 during the weekends. Looking at the pax involved, they were generally obese or old or a combination of the two.. .. .I started running with the recircs off to push the packs to high flow all the time. It does burn slightly more fuel, but one medical diversion can burn more fuel than a lifetime of running with the Recirc's off.. .. .The only problem I've noticed is sometimes the temperature "pools" in hot or cool in different areas of the cabin. A quick blast of the recircs mixes it up again.. .. .The other problem is that sooner or later I'll hit that left recirc on a 757 and lock open the smoke valve....That'll cost me some beer for the mechanics and a dance in the flight office...
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 19:48
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Obviously none of you guys fly Airbus! On the 310 & 330 (that is all I have flown but others probably have it as well) there is a switch which controls Pack Flow. It is usually in Normal but if pax numbers are low then our SOP recommends putting it to Low Flow position. Saves about 0.5% which over a long sector could be worth a few hundred kgs.
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Old 12th Mar 2002, 19:56
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This is what Sky News are reporting:. .===============. .. .Air Quality Could Affect Airline Passengers . . . .. .Poor cabin air quality in aircraft could be affecting passengers' health, according to a consumer watchdog. . .. .The Consumers' Association warned there was still a 'worrying lack of research' into onboard health.. .. .But a report in its Holiday Which? magazine claimed airlines were doing little to improve the general conditions onboard. . .. .Contamination. .. .A number of cases of possible air contamination on BAe 146 aircraft had been reported where crew were said to have fainted.. .. .The report claimed pilots reduced airflow rates in aircraft cabins to save fuel.. .. .Substances banned in the USA are still used in cabin pesticide sprays and, says Holiday Which?, cabin pressures have been set higher than normal.. .. .Problem. .. .British Aerospace, now BAE Systems, has taken action, but the magazine reports the problem may still not be solved.. .. ."The failure of the airline industry to respond to repeated warnings around the world about cabin fumes on BAe 146 aircraft doesn't give travellers much faith that their health is being sufficiently looked after," said Holiday Which? editor Patricia Yates.. .. ."Who knows how many other common complaints about cabin air quality will prove to be well-founded.". .. .She added: "Until further research is carried out, and standards are enforced, the uncertainty will continue."
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Old 13th Mar 2002, 07:58
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Monkee,. .. .On a Classic B747 you can achieve a 0.5-1.0% fuel burn decrease by turning one pack off. This is an approved Boeing Procedure.. .. .747FOCAL.. .. .Can you point me towards an official source of this suggestion... .. .The 777 and 767 have areas of the cabin in cruise that are suggested not to seat the old and very young because of several incidents of them passing out. . .. .I could use it to justify First Class staff travel... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Thanks. .. .Mutt.
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Old 13th Mar 2002, 13:04
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My Back Button is also playing up on PPRUNE!. .Cabin air supply comes second to this.
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Old 13th Mar 2002, 13:13
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The Back button snag seems to have increased with the advertising. I think the first press just scrolls back thru the adverts. Keep pressing Back til it has the desired effect.. .. .Air? On my type it saves little in economy mode but still SOP to use it.
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Old 13th Mar 2002, 13:19
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The Aviation Health Institute seems more concerned that the quality of the air in the cabin is usually set at a mixture of 50% "pure" and 50% recycled air. It suggests that the recycled air may not have all the harmful elements removed should the filtering system be working at less than normal capability.. .. .This time last year, two surveys were announced into passenger health. The UK govt. announced a study into the risk of air travel-related DVT and the quality of air on board aircraft. Other subjects include the transmission of infection, cosmic radiation and the effects of jet lag and work patterns. The results were published in the autumn 2001. There are two reports, the second makes for interesting reading:. .<a href="http://www.aviation.detr.gov.uk/healthcab/aircab/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.aviation.detr.gov.uk/heal thcab/aircab/index.htm</a>. .<a href="http://www.aviation.detr.gov.uk/healthcab/cabinhealth/index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.aviation.detr.gov.uk /healthcab/cabinhealth/index.htm</a>. .. .The second survey was a three year study to be co-ordinated by the UK Buildings Research Establishment(no kidding!). Tests were going to be carried out on short- and long-haul flights on British Airways, SAS and KLM aircraft. This appears to have been delayed according to this press release:. .. .<a href="http://www.bre.co.uk/press/2002/february/010202cabinair.html" target="_blank">http://www.bre.co.uk/press/2002/fe bruary/010202cabinair.html</a>. . . . <small>[ 13 March 2002, 09:41: Message edited by: newswatcher ]</small>
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