From Murray_NN Security Guard at LHR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Heathrow
Age: 43
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From Murray_NN Security Guard at LHR
I made a posting here about security last year and had large amounts of replies that suggested the security at LHR and many BAA airports were OTT. At end I had to give up because I had so much opposition from many pilots all over the world.
I even remember RAW DATA was arguing with me that pilots should not be searched etc.
I am apalled at the tragedies in USA. But it comes to us (LHR Guards) as no surpise.
It is well known in our section that the two crews that most resisted our searching procedures were the Americans and the French Canadians. When we processed American & Canadian crews before the incident, there was an air of impression that they would never be the targets because they felt so secure and felt above the world.
I feel sorry for USA and hope they recover to the full.
But please realise that Security at the airports are for your OWN protection. It will be your OWN interest to comply with us. I know some of us can be annoying and I'm not denying that. But remember once again! ITS FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY!!!
Take care of yourselves and your luggage!!!
I even remember RAW DATA was arguing with me that pilots should not be searched etc.
I am apalled at the tragedies in USA. But it comes to us (LHR Guards) as no surpise.
It is well known in our section that the two crews that most resisted our searching procedures were the Americans and the French Canadians. When we processed American & Canadian crews before the incident, there was an air of impression that they would never be the targets because they felt so secure and felt above the world.
I feel sorry for USA and hope they recover to the full.
But please realise that Security at the airports are for your OWN protection. It will be your OWN interest to comply with us. I know some of us can be annoying and I'm not denying that. But remember once again! ITS FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY!!!
Take care of yourselves and your luggage!!!
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Engerland
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its hardley as if crews are going to bring knives and guns aboard to hijack a plane they already have control of!!!
They just probably did n't want the hosties to see the top porn they were taking home to the wife!!
Search the pax search the crew but if people are that determined they will use the plastic cutlery we now have suffer, thanks again Mr Bin Liner!!
LOVE AND KISSES THROBER 69
They just probably did n't want the hosties to see the top porn they were taking home to the wife!!
Search the pax search the crew but if people are that determined they will use the plastic cutlery we now have suffer, thanks again Mr Bin Liner!!
LOVE AND KISSES THROBER 69
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: LHR
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Following on from the points of security at LHR. I am an employee at LHR and overall think that the security is far better than other airports, both here and in the US, however I strongly feel that Police Officers and Customs staff should also be searched when going 'airside'.
Condolences to all for last weeks dreadfull events.
152
Condolences to all for last weeks dreadfull events.
152
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: NZ
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh, do wake up Murray, no wonder you are still a security guard. Please explain to us how rigorous searching of crews would have helped in this case. In fact, explain how ANY searching of crews AT ALL would have prevented this.
When you have finished doing that, explain to us how the current measures will help, when a terrorist armed with a balpoint pen could easily kill people (or a plastic knife from a meal tray, or a piece of sharp trim removed from the aircraft, etc).
All the current measures do is make the public feel better. If you knew anything about security, you would understand all this...
The only sure way to prevent this in future is to either stop terrorists getting on aircraft (virtually impossible), or isolate the flight deck (much better idea).
Oh, and in future try reading those old threads before making assumptions about what I said.
When you have finished doing that, explain to us how the current measures will help, when a terrorist armed with a balpoint pen could easily kill people (or a plastic knife from a meal tray, or a piece of sharp trim removed from the aircraft, etc).
All the current measures do is make the public feel better. If you knew anything about security, you would understand all this...
The only sure way to prevent this in future is to either stop terrorists getting on aircraft (virtually impossible), or isolate the flight deck (much better idea).
Oh, and in future try reading those old threads before making assumptions about what I said.
Still behind the curtain
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I have a feeling that many European countries, including the U.K. will re-intitute the passport stamping on departure system.
When I first came to Europe from the U.S. eight years ago, you also had to go through passport control when you were leaving a country. In the past few years, all you have to do is to go through the security gate and you're home free. Yes, on inernational flights you have to show your passport to the frazzled girl at the airline check-in counter, but what does she know? She is not an expert in forged passports or visas.
In the U.K. I have had instances when I have checked my luggage and AFTER going through the security check, been politely approached by Crown Agents and taken to a room where they examined my luggage piece by piece, including underpants. Hats off!
To wind this thing up, I definitely think that European security is much better than the American counterpart. The last time I left the U.S. to come back to Europe, all my friends and relatives, including their dog, were allowed to accompany my to the departure gate and wave bye-bye.
In Europe waving bye-bye means just before you pass the security and go into the transit terminal. I'm not saying that improvements can't be made in Europe, but American security, although I am an American, is (or was) a joke.
When I first came to Europe from the U.S. eight years ago, you also had to go through passport control when you were leaving a country. In the past few years, all you have to do is to go through the security gate and you're home free. Yes, on inernational flights you have to show your passport to the frazzled girl at the airline check-in counter, but what does she know? She is not an expert in forged passports or visas.
In the U.K. I have had instances when I have checked my luggage and AFTER going through the security check, been politely approached by Crown Agents and taken to a room where they examined my luggage piece by piece, including underpants. Hats off!
To wind this thing up, I definitely think that European security is much better than the American counterpart. The last time I left the U.S. to come back to Europe, all my friends and relatives, including their dog, were allowed to accompany my to the departure gate and wave bye-bye.
In Europe waving bye-bye means just before you pass the security and go into the transit terminal. I'm not saying that improvements can't be made in Europe, but American security, although I am an American, is (or was) a joke.
Death Cruiser Flight Crew
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Vaucluse, France.
Posts: 613
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So tell us, Murray, what's your background that you should lecture us in such a way? Ideally, you should be ex Military Police or RAF Regiment or somesuch, with specialist knowledge of terrorist activities, but my guess is you're not. Let's not fool each other, Murray. You and your kind are a sop and a comfort to the travelling public, but we, the aircrew, can see straight through you. We always did. Nothing in the job you do could have prevented the events of last Tuesday. Nothing. Right now, we don't need lectures from you. Have you got that?
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Pub
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I used to do Airport Security in Aus we did screen all crew bags etc, but were told it was just a formality and nothing more. Under no circumstances we were to question pilots belongings. Of course a gun would have done more than raise a few eyebrows but the chances of that happening werent that great.
Tools and small leatherman type knives are common in pilot nav bags and are also very handy.
[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: Right Seat ]
Tools and small leatherman type knives are common in pilot nav bags and are also very handy.
[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: Right Seat ]
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: California, USA
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I went through crew security at LHR regularly up untill a couple of years ago.
What we found was that is was a lot more thorough and intrusive than when we went through the regular security as a passenger.
So, yes, we did find that odd, and did resent it.
What we found was that is was a lot more thorough and intrusive than when we went through the regular security as a passenger.
So, yes, we did find that odd, and did resent it.
Join Date: Jul 1998
Location: Fl USA
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Drop the ban on registered firearms carriers. On the flight that crashed near pittsburg, reports are that the pax tried to take back the acft. if any one of them had been armed, there might have been a totally different outcome.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: located
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good one gaterbait, a step in the right direction! 
What, pray tell, would of stopped the terrorists from carrying firearms. At least 4 terrorists per aircraft .... who do you think you are ? Rambo?
I think Murry's post was in light of the uncomfirmed reports of arrests in NYC of people attempting to pass themselves off as pilots (in uniform + fake ID).
[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: Drop and Stop ]
What, pray tell, would of stopped the terrorists from carrying firearms. At least 4 terrorists per aircraft .... who do you think you are ? Rambo? I think Murry's post was in light of the uncomfirmed reports of arrests in NYC of people attempting to pass themselves off as pilots (in uniform + fake ID).
[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: Drop and Stop ]
A few years ago among the things stolen from a pilots home that was burgled was both his uniforms. I suppose that could be justification for inspecting crews, not to mention the all too many (although decreasing) instances of seeing crew bags unattended in hotel lobbies while their owners are getting a coffee somewhere.
Searching crews seems non productive unless they are not what they seem. ID's can, I suppose be faked.
Searching crews seems non productive unless they are not what they seem. ID's can, I suppose be faked.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: london/UK
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Mr 152, You feel strongly that a Police Officer or Customs Officer should be searched do you? What a silly man! First you might have noticed, that many Heathrow Officers carry firearms. So what are you going to do with them? Call the police, who would have to go through a search and in turn have thier firearm, baton and tear gas seized. Just think in 20 minutes the BAA would have enough weapons to start WW3, and every Policeman held for questioning. Good idea! I feel sure, if you have a sensible think you will realise that the chances of a policeman being a terrorist are very low. Can the same be said of the BAA? Not really, thier vetting having been shown on numerous occations to be lacking. The long and short of it, if a police officer on duty is carring a weapon of offence, he is authorised to do so, and there is nothing a private security firm like the BAA can do about it, nor I'm sure would they officaly like to. On a slightly more important note, perhaps if the BAA had paid more attention to thier job of searching pax, they may have found the bomb destined for the el al flight some years ago, rather than letting el als own security do it. I find that more worrying!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BJCC , you seem to miss the point made by 152 .
EVERYONE should be subject to the same security search.I too work at a BAA airport and everyday see HM Immigration,HM Customs,BAA security all pass through the metal detectors and then waved through,without any search !
Any items they have with them are NOT subject to the X-Ray machine.
Who is to say that they are not carrying anything illegal ?
EVERYONE should be subject to the same security search.I too work at a BAA airport and everyday see HM Immigration,HM Customs,BAA security all pass through the metal detectors and then waved through,without any search !
Any items they have with them are NOT subject to the X-Ray machine.
Who is to say that they are not carrying anything illegal ?
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: london/UK
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jellybabe...
No I haven't missed the point, he specificly mentioned Police and customs. You mention Immigration and BAA in addition, yes BAA should be searched. Customs and Police, if carring something which would be illegal for you, would not be for them, ie, in the case of police a firearm. They are specificly permitted to do so. Customs if they have seized one are the same. The point being so you search a police officer, and find say a tear gas spray....so then what are you going to do? Nothing, because the officer is permitted to carry it. It is therefore a waste of resorces, that should be used to search the threat, not the people there to deter the threat.
No I haven't missed the point, he specificly mentioned Police and customs. You mention Immigration and BAA in addition, yes BAA should be searched. Customs and Police, if carring something which would be illegal for you, would not be for them, ie, in the case of police a firearm. They are specificly permitted to do so. Customs if they have seized one are the same. The point being so you search a police officer, and find say a tear gas spray....so then what are you going to do? Nothing, because the officer is permitted to carry it. It is therefore a waste of resorces, that should be used to search the threat, not the people there to deter the threat.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bjcc, I do not have a problem with Police Officers on duty either armed or not !.
I do have a problem however with people like HM Immigration,HM Customs and BAA security who don't even bother to show that they are prepared to comply with a search.
They seem to justify bypassing a search with an assumption that "their" job rates them to be beyond the law !
I do have a problem however with people like HM Immigration,HM Customs and BAA security who don't even bother to show that they are prepared to comply with a search.
They seem to justify bypassing a search with an assumption that "their" job rates them to be beyond the law !
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Stella Maris.
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Raw data,
your smug self satisfied tone is appalling & as for the inane insults !.
Do you genuinely believe that an anti hijack door makes a pressurised fuselage indistructable ?. The number of incidents prevented by EL AL security staff attests to the fact that well equiped,trained & motivated security staff 'can' stop EODs or armed passengers being allowed to board.
May i suggest that it is ingrained & blinkered attitudes such as yours that prevent a more pluralistic approach to security. All agencies have a role to play,flight deck ,cabin crew & ground security staff.
your smug self satisfied tone is appalling & as for the inane insults !.
Do you genuinely believe that an anti hijack door makes a pressurised fuselage indistructable ?. The number of incidents prevented by EL AL security staff attests to the fact that well equiped,trained & motivated security staff 'can' stop EODs or armed passengers being allowed to board.
May i suggest that it is ingrained & blinkered attitudes such as yours that prevent a more pluralistic approach to security. All agencies have a role to play,flight deck ,cabin crew & ground security staff.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heathrow security at the control posts are the most arrogant and ignorant assh0les ever to crawl the planet. I've seen bus drivers mechanics and refuellers lightly frisked and then allowed drive a vehicle through airside with no inspection of it's contents. Meanwhile crews are subjected to the most degrading treatment, including having their personal effects opened despite no X-Ray indication of a security threat. This is done under the name of 'random inspection'. I have even witnessed a security officer at post 2 acutally open a tub of cleansing cream belonging to one of our cabin crew.
When will you idiots ever get it into your little heads that in all such terrorist cases the crews are the ones that end up the victim. Perpitrators of such crimes usually remain on the ground. In many countries, police vetting of cockpit and cabin crew occurs as part of the recruitment procedure, and they are unlikely to commit such crimes. Even if they want to, they can take control of the aircraft without use of weapons, of if needed, use the nice steel cutlery provided on board by the airline itself.
On the other hand we have an untold number of 'officials' including police officers and BAA security staff that have access to aircraft and it's baggage. Forged ID's and fake uniforms are relatively easy to create or obtain, so there should be great importance placed on ensuring such personnel are properly checked. Equally, any object other than official issue they carry airside should be treated in the same fashion as a passenger - no knives etc, and the same penalty for breaching the regulations.
What about aircraft mechanics - should they be allowed to bring Leatherman tools near an aircraft? Now things start getting stupid. As I sit there in the cockpit fully laden all ready to go waiting for the aircraft to be serviceable, the mechanic uses a combination tool to rectify the snag. If I tried to bring that tool through security, I would be stopped and have it taken from me.
Are you suggsting that I am a threat to security whilst the mechanic is not?
The biggest threat to our safety comes from those that have access to aircraft and don't travel on it.
Wake up you BAA Assh0les.
[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: tonyryan ]
When will you idiots ever get it into your little heads that in all such terrorist cases the crews are the ones that end up the victim. Perpitrators of such crimes usually remain on the ground. In many countries, police vetting of cockpit and cabin crew occurs as part of the recruitment procedure, and they are unlikely to commit such crimes. Even if they want to, they can take control of the aircraft without use of weapons, of if needed, use the nice steel cutlery provided on board by the airline itself.
On the other hand we have an untold number of 'officials' including police officers and BAA security staff that have access to aircraft and it's baggage. Forged ID's and fake uniforms are relatively easy to create or obtain, so there should be great importance placed on ensuring such personnel are properly checked. Equally, any object other than official issue they carry airside should be treated in the same fashion as a passenger - no knives etc, and the same penalty for breaching the regulations.
What about aircraft mechanics - should they be allowed to bring Leatherman tools near an aircraft? Now things start getting stupid. As I sit there in the cockpit fully laden all ready to go waiting for the aircraft to be serviceable, the mechanic uses a combination tool to rectify the snag. If I tried to bring that tool through security, I would be stopped and have it taken from me.
Are you suggsting that I am a threat to security whilst the mechanic is not?
The biggest threat to our safety comes from those that have access to aircraft and don't travel on it.
Wake up you BAA Assh0les.
[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: tonyryan ]
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: LHR
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bjcc, point taken, but there is no need to hurl insults. This is supposed to be an intelligent debate.
You say police and customs should NOT be searched, well, the majority of police and customs that go through security are not armed. So I still feel that ALL customs staff are to be searched. In case you don't realise they actually walk through the archway metal detector with thier briefcase still in hand. As for police, armed or not, should still be searched, I accept your point that they are permitted to carry thier batons, tear gas and weapons but what about the items they are not permitted to carry. Well they have just got it airside havent they? Now they can pass it on! Do you know the components of a bomb? They are very small if carried separately. As for saying the chances of a policeman being a terrorist is low. Low is still a chance is it not? Until you say the chances of a policman being a terrorist is non existent, then they should be searched. Simple as that.
152
PS. jellybaby, thanks for your support.
You say police and customs should NOT be searched, well, the majority of police and customs that go through security are not armed. So I still feel that ALL customs staff are to be searched. In case you don't realise they actually walk through the archway metal detector with thier briefcase still in hand. As for police, armed or not, should still be searched, I accept your point that they are permitted to carry thier batons, tear gas and weapons but what about the items they are not permitted to carry. Well they have just got it airside havent they? Now they can pass it on! Do you know the components of a bomb? They are very small if carried separately. As for saying the chances of a policeman being a terrorist is low. Low is still a chance is it not? Until you say the chances of a policman being a terrorist is non existent, then they should be searched. Simple as that.
152
PS. jellybaby, thanks for your support.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: YVR/Pacific Rim
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RAW DATA
Oh, do wake up Murray, no wonder you are still a security guard.
What does this mean exactly. Security Guards are worthless scum? Maybe to you matey, but not to us who depend on them to actually help enforce Security.
Georgeablelovehowindia
Let's not fool each other, Murray. You and your kind are a sop and a comfort to the travelling public, but we, the aircrew, can see straight through you.
Golly, you may. But I certainly don't... why don't you reveal your pearls of wisdom? Shall we dispense of their services altogether? I can't believe the crap you just spowted.
Can't a profession deemed obviously so low by you guys have any respect? Thank Christ I don't fly in the UK anymore.
Oh, do wake up Murray, no wonder you are still a security guard.
What does this mean exactly. Security Guards are worthless scum? Maybe to you matey, but not to us who depend on them to actually help enforce Security.
Georgeablelovehowindia
Let's not fool each other, Murray. You and your kind are a sop and a comfort to the travelling public, but we, the aircrew, can see straight through you.
Golly, you may. But I certainly don't... why don't you reveal your pearls of wisdom? Shall we dispense of their services altogether? I can't believe the crap you just spowted.
Can't a profession deemed obviously so low by you guys have any respect? Thank Christ I don't fly in the UK anymore.
Moderator
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Without getting invloved in the argument here, and yes I greatly dislike having to get out of the crew transport at 0430 AM and lug my crew suitcase through the X-ray machine at LHR as well, I do want to state here that going through that checkpoint twice a month, I always find the security people there both friendly and courteous.
They did not make these silly rules, they enforce them, in in my experience a bit of courtesy from the crew goes a long way in smoothing thise whole silly procedure.
They did not make these silly rules, they enforce them, in in my experience a bit of courtesy from the crew goes a long way in smoothing thise whole silly procedure.