From Murray_NN Security Guard at LHR
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RAW DATA
So, rustbucket, you are suggesting that a pilot would smuggle in a weapon for another to use? Leaving aside the obvious possibility that the pilot in question could end up being the victim of his own stupidity, can you point me at a SINGLE example of this happening? Thought not.
Can you point to me a previous happening of 180t airliners being slammed into the side of a building possibly by type-rated terrorists? Thought not.
I'm leaving this thread now. A tad too contentious for my liking
So, rustbucket, you are suggesting that a pilot would smuggle in a weapon for another to use? Leaving aside the obvious possibility that the pilot in question could end up being the victim of his own stupidity, can you point me at a SINGLE example of this happening? Thought not.
Can you point to me a previous happening of 180t airliners being slammed into the side of a building possibly by type-rated terrorists? Thought not.
I'm leaving this thread now. A tad too contentious for my liking
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If we have secure cockpit doors this may not solve the problem. A terrorist seen by aircrew killing/torturing a flight attendant (viewed through the peephole or described via intercom) may, today or tomorrow, still coerce a crew member to open the door; on a variety of pretexts or promises (think about it). I believe cabin security is the issue. Air marshalls are expensive and arming every passenger with a weapon with non-skin penetrating projectiles is both expensive and a PR nightmare(so who gives a rat's arse about that you may say - as I do). On every commercial flight you would have either on or off-duty military personnel. I am suggesting that an option could be to specifically train certain military personnel in tactics for disabling terrorists (preferably permanently). When these people fly they will be specifically cleared to carry a specialist weapon and be there to assist on the day of your worst nightmare. This option is almost cost neutral. Comments please ladies and gentlemen!
[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: NormanBates ]
[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: NormanBates ]
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Our last hijacking was conducted by an “immigration officer” and a “policeman”. In an airport where I can’t even wear steel toed Caterpillars through the security machine, they managed to bring two guns past “their security friends”. The London bound airliner ended up in Baghdad and the whole airport security detail ended up in jail.
The hijacking before that was carried out by an extremely pissed off group of deportees using the cutlery which came with the meal.
So you can introduce all the security measures that you wish, but unless they get to the level of ElAl, they will be ineffective.
Mutt.
The hijacking before that was carried out by an extremely pissed off group of deportees using the cutlery which came with the meal.
So you can introduce all the security measures that you wish, but unless they get to the level of ElAl, they will be ineffective.
Mutt.
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I have been through Heathrow crew checks many times and with the exception of x-raying the crew luggage I believe them to be a waste of time.
Most of the support drivers(fuel,mail,food etc.) only have their passes checked, the vehicles are not inspected!
I often wonder what they expect to find in a pilots bag as the most dangerous weapons on board are at the end of a pilots wrist!! All this rot about penknives and the like is unbelivable - if I wanted to whack somebody I would reach for the flight deck fire axe!
Most of the support drivers(fuel,mail,food etc.) only have their passes checked, the vehicles are not inspected!
I often wonder what they expect to find in a pilots bag as the most dangerous weapons on board are at the end of a pilots wrist!! All this rot about penknives and the like is unbelivable - if I wanted to whack somebody I would reach for the flight deck fire axe!
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Rustbucket, you miss the point beautifully. The whole point of the WTC horror was that it was committed by pax, with minimal weaponry, but a willingness to die. I very much doubt that UK security would have caught them either. They could just as easily have used "legal" knives- the thing that made them dangerous was their fanaticism, and that is not easily detectable at an airport.
All the measures we are seeing now are very much a matter of bolting the door long, long after the horse has departed the scene. Mostly it is about restoring passenger confidence (as good a reason as any, I guess). The only real defence is preventing them getting into the flight deck, and I very much doubt that any of these guys would have appeared overly suspicious at check-in or security.
I am all for security, as long as it is intelligent and sensible. Ask El Al about cockpit security if you want an example.
Finally, I really feel for the poor security staff around the UK, having to implement DETR procedures and getting abuse from everyone... let's try and be nice to them.
All the measures we are seeing now are very much a matter of bolting the door long, long after the horse has departed the scene. Mostly it is about restoring passenger confidence (as good a reason as any, I guess). The only real defence is preventing them getting into the flight deck, and I very much doubt that any of these guys would have appeared overly suspicious at check-in or security.
I am all for security, as long as it is intelligent and sensible. Ask El Al about cockpit security if you want an example.
Finally, I really feel for the poor security staff around the UK, having to implement DETR procedures and getting abuse from everyone... let's try and be nice to them.
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I quote Raw Data
Anyone remember that chap who overpowered a 747 BA crew which sent the aircraft badly out of shape to be corrected by the FO? The chap was mentally disturbed, not armed and from what I can recall was reported to ground staff before boarding the flight but declared fit to travel.
The point (I personally think) being made here is that if a security level is applied it should be applied to all and that includes airside workers, pilots, cabin crew and passengers.
first story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/...00/1092925.stm
second story (including the bit about the Police let the person on the plane)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/...00/1094419.stm
edited to add the BBC links
[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: What_does_this_button_do? ]
The whole point of the WTC horror was that it was committed by pax, with minimal weaponry, but a willingness to die. I very much doubt that UK security would have caught them either. They could just as easily have used "legal" knives- the thing that made them dangerous was their fanaticism, and that is not easily detectable at an airport.
The point (I personally think) being made here is that if a security level is applied it should be applied to all and that includes airside workers, pilots, cabin crew and passengers.
first story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/...00/1092925.stm
second story (including the bit about the Police let the person on the plane)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/...00/1094419.stm
edited to add the BBC links
[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: What_does_this_button_do? ]
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RAW DATA
I cannot believe this is coming out of the mouth of a moderator!!!
RD I say again you silly man! Read carefully and slowly if you cannot comprehend this text.
WE ARE HERE FOR YOUR OWN PROTECTION AND A LITTLE CO-OPERATION FROM THE TYPES OF YOU WILL GO ALONG WAY WITH US. IF YOU DONT CO-OPERATE IT WILL BE YOU THAT WILL WALK AWAY FROM OUR POSTS PISSED OFF!!! AS YOU CLEARLY ARE.
I come to question your inteligence RD. If you are a pilot you should realise that its common sense why we take weapons off pax and pilots and many more who enter A/S.
[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]
Finally, I really feel for the poor security staff around the UK, having to implement DETR procedures and getting abuse from everyone... let's try and be nice to them. RAW DATA.
RD I say again you silly man! Read carefully and slowly if you cannot comprehend this text.
WE ARE HERE FOR YOUR OWN PROTECTION AND A LITTLE CO-OPERATION FROM THE TYPES OF YOU WILL GO ALONG WAY WITH US. IF YOU DONT CO-OPERATE IT WILL BE YOU THAT WILL WALK AWAY FROM OUR POSTS PISSED OFF!!! AS YOU CLEARLY ARE.
I come to question your inteligence RD. If you are a pilot you should realise that its common sense why we take weapons off pax and pilots and many more who enter A/S.
[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]
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BJCC,
The COPS SHOULD BE SEACHED AND ALL WEAPONS INVENTORIED! in and out of the secure area.
The people that carried out these hijackings had been hiding in American for YEARS! They had wives and children here! What is to stop an accomplice from joining the police force just so that he can preposition guns in the terminals for the terrorirst? So what if a cop carries his service weapon + another concealed weapon and leaves the concealed weapon behind in the terminal?
I think that ALL security personel should go through security and inventory all weapons in and out of the secure area.
Wino
The COPS SHOULD BE SEACHED AND ALL WEAPONS INVENTORIED! in and out of the secure area.
The people that carried out these hijackings had been hiding in American for YEARS! They had wives and children here! What is to stop an accomplice from joining the police force just so that he can preposition guns in the terminals for the terrorirst? So what if a cop carries his service weapon + another concealed weapon and leaves the concealed weapon behind in the terminal?
I think that ALL security personel should go through security and inventory all weapons in and out of the secure area.
Wino
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
To prevent this thread going round in circles I will try and make a point that not many people have brought up. Once a person with evil intent is on the a/c then it is too late. In the case of the mass murderers of last week it has been shown that they not only perpetrated the hijack but did so FOUR times within minutes of each other.
What we have here is a massive failure of the intelligence services. Considering the time that it took to plan and set up these terrorist acts and the logistics involved it is suprising that the intelligence services, with huge resources at their disposal, failed to alert anyone about this attack. Had they had some evidence based on intelligence gathered they would have at least been able to alert the various security services to step up their vigilance but sadly this was not to be.
Having a go at the security personnel doing their job or having a go at us pilots for being subjected to what often is seen as futile, knee jerk reaction and a lack of understanding by both sides as to what really needs to be done is not going to help.
No doubt all the issues are being discussed by the appropriate groups in slightly more secure forums than this but at the same time maybe they will be looking here to see what we also think about the current systems. I just hope that common sense prevails and any new measures introduced are workable and take into account both sides of the argument we have seen here.
This one is going to be closed for now.
What we have here is a massive failure of the intelligence services. Considering the time that it took to plan and set up these terrorist acts and the logistics involved it is suprising that the intelligence services, with huge resources at their disposal, failed to alert anyone about this attack. Had they had some evidence based on intelligence gathered they would have at least been able to alert the various security services to step up their vigilance but sadly this was not to be.
Having a go at the security personnel doing their job or having a go at us pilots for being subjected to what often is seen as futile, knee jerk reaction and a lack of understanding by both sides as to what really needs to be done is not going to help.
No doubt all the issues are being discussed by the appropriate groups in slightly more secure forums than this but at the same time maybe they will be looking here to see what we also think about the current systems. I just hope that common sense prevails and any new measures introduced are workable and take into account both sides of the argument we have seen here.
This one is going to be closed for now.
