London ATC ?
Ohcirrej
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Doug,
Just as a further to your suggestion of airlines that only operate one wake category, where conditional line up clearances are being used eg "After the landing A320/737....", there are instances for whatever the reason, where the aircraft is different to what is on the flight progress strip (as chiglet mentions), hence the requirement to check type on first contact. It's a very small point, however could lead to a little confusion for a pilot if he's told to line up something that doesn't turn up!
Just as a further to your suggestion of airlines that only operate one wake category, where conditional line up clearances are being used eg "After the landing A320/737....", there are instances for whatever the reason, where the aircraft is different to what is on the flight progress strip (as chiglet mentions), hence the requirement to check type on first contact. It's a very small point, however could lead to a little confusion for a pilot if he's told to line up something that doesn't turn up!
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I am one of those TC Controllers.
I would like to say' Thank You ' to all those pilots who give me their read back as quickly as I deliver a clearance to them. Some Nationalities speak v--e--r--y slowly and take ages to read back, even when it is very busy.
It is a slow read back that takes up most time, saying 'the' does not matter at all. I say bring back '' The Speedbird Concorde 1 ''
I would like to say' Thank You ' to all those pilots who give me their read back as quickly as I deliver a clearance to them. Some Nationalities speak v--e--r--y slowly and take ages to read back, even when it is very busy.
It is a slow read back that takes up most time, saying 'the' does not matter at all. I say bring back '' The Speedbird Concorde 1 ''
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Over+Out
Some Nationalities speak v--e--r--y slowly and take ages to read back
I'll say if you speed down a little, we would be able to understand better and you would not have to repeat the message. That way rt time is saved, NOT the other way around!
One thing that could save time on a busy freq into London is this:
LON:"XXX123 Intercept and follow locelizer rwy 25 left, report established"
XXX123:"intercept and follow locelizer rwy 25 left, will report established XXX123"
XXX123:"Established locelizer rwy 25 left"
LON:"XXX123 Follow the glide"
XXX123:"Follow the glide XXX123"
In other countries the sequence is as follows:
Lon:"XXX123 cleared ILS RWY 25 left"
XXX123:"Cleared ILS RWY 25 left XXX123"
Simple is'nt it?
Regards from a scandihooligan, that thinks that most controllers in the London area is doing a very good job, with out of date equipment.
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I say bring back '' The Speedbird Concorde 1 ''
Back on topic, though, more use of ACARS and standard R/T must help. And would it be possible to dispense with the "Descend FL280, expect FL140 40dme OCK" if a) that restriction is published anyway and b) we're going to have to hear it and read it back all over again when it's actually issued? (I know its been said before)...
aka Capt PPRuNe
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Just out of curiosity, I prefixed my callsign with "THE" a few days ago when arriving back in UK airspace. I really emphasised it the few times I could remember to use it. I waited for a flash of lightning and a thunderclap... but nothing (Might be because it was pretty much CAVOK everywhere). Neither the controller nor other pilots so much as added an extra sigh to their transmissions.
I then rushed home to check PPRuNe for the torrent of abuse that my deliberate provocation should have caused... but nothing!
So, I guess that delivering the prefix "THE" must only cause irritation when spoken with an accent that sounds like you've got a stone from a plum in your mouth. It would seem that us common garden (without the garden) yokels from the provinces with our Scouse accents just don't get up noses in the same way as all those Public School educated, ex RAF types that fly for companies that provide final salary pensions. 
I then rushed home to check PPRuNe for the torrent of abuse that my deliberate provocation should have caused... but nothing!
So, I guess that delivering the prefix "THE" must only cause irritation when spoken with an accent that sounds like you've got a stone from a plum in your mouth. It would seem that us common garden (without the garden) yokels from the provinces with our Scouse accents just don't get up noses in the same way as all those Public School educated, ex RAF types that fly for companies that provide final salary pensions.
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On Justforkix point, we had to pull a big offset on the LLZ a few weeks ago [go-around was my initial choice] because of this very instruction; we couldn't get a word in edgeways to report "established 09R LLZ"!!
Please, set us on a vector and clear us for the ILS.
It will save a heap of transmissions and make for an easier day after a very long sector.
G'day
Please, set us on a vector and clear us for the ILS.
It will save a heap of transmissions and make for an easier day after a very long sector.G'day
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One thing that does seem to be a waste of time is all those clearances that tell you to be level XX miles before YYY waypoint. (Standing agreement)
For example, when departing MAN on a HON1 departure you will eventually be cleared up to FL190. On handover to London on 131.12 you will eventually get a clearance to climb to FL310. No problem with that but I remember only a few years ago you would be cleared to FL310 to be level 50NM before BIG. Again, no problem. Then they created a waypoint (SOTED?) which was exactly 50NM from BIG. Not once in the few years that I remember noticing this new waypoint was I ever actually cleared to it or to be abeam it at FL310. Now, I have noticed that we are always cleared to BIG and to climb to FL310 to be level by 55NM before BIG.
How long will it be before they create a new waypoint 55NM from BIG? And... if they do, will the controllers ever use it?
Same goes for arrivals into MAN. At least they haven't created a waypoint for this one (although why, I don't know?) but you were always cleared to descend to FL200 to be level 20NM before TNT. Now it is 25NM before TNT.
Invariably, the restriction is always given so why not publish the restriction and only use up valuable RT time when the restriction is not necessary rather than the other way around? At the end of the day, if you had an RT failure you're going to fly what's published anyway.
Finally, whilst I'm on a roll here, why do MAN Clearance Delivery insist on reading back the ATIS identifier AND the QNH even when you have already passed both on your initial contact with them? Not usually a problem but I have noticed that some controllers do so even in the middle of rush hour when getting a word in edgeways can mean the difference between achieving your slot or being stuck waiting for a new one.
For example, when departing MAN on a HON1 departure you will eventually be cleared up to FL190. On handover to London on 131.12 you will eventually get a clearance to climb to FL310. No problem with that but I remember only a few years ago you would be cleared to FL310 to be level 50NM before BIG. Again, no problem. Then they created a waypoint (SOTED?) which was exactly 50NM from BIG. Not once in the few years that I remember noticing this new waypoint was I ever actually cleared to it or to be abeam it at FL310. Now, I have noticed that we are always cleared to BIG and to climb to FL310 to be level by 55NM before BIG.
How long will it be before they create a new waypoint 55NM from BIG? And... if they do, will the controllers ever use it?
Same goes for arrivals into MAN. At least they haven't created a waypoint for this one (although why, I don't know?) but you were always cleared to descend to FL200 to be level 20NM before TNT. Now it is 25NM before TNT.
Invariably, the restriction is always given so why not publish the restriction and only use up valuable RT time when the restriction is not necessary rather than the other way around? At the end of the day, if you had an RT failure you're going to fly what's published anyway.
Finally, whilst I'm on a roll here, why do MAN Clearance Delivery insist on reading back the ATIS identifier AND the QNH even when you have already passed both on your initial contact with them? Not usually a problem but I have noticed that some controllers do so even in the middle of rush hour when getting a word in edgeways can mean the difference between achieving your slot or being stuck waiting for a new one.
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Feather #3 and Justforkix
I don't think you will ever get your preferred phraseology adopted at Heathrow because of the interaction between such things as Helicopter Routes, London City, White Waltham etc. and the approach. It can be a pain I admit, but I think that the "cleared ILS" phraseology would end up generating more paperwork in the long run, especially as speed control is vital and some pilots may assume that the clearance removes the ATC imposed speed.
The phraseology could find application at some quieter airports in the UK though.
G W-H
I don't think you will ever get your preferred phraseology adopted at Heathrow because of the interaction between such things as Helicopter Routes, London City, White Waltham etc. and the approach. It can be a pain I admit, but I think that the "cleared ILS" phraseology would end up generating more paperwork in the long run, especially as speed control is vital and some pilots may assume that the clearance removes the ATC imposed speed.
The phraseology could find application at some quieter airports in the UK though.
G W-H
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Justforkix
I accept your point. I always do try and speak more slowly for non native English speakers. The ones I was talking about were our friends from the US of A.
As a TC Controller I am not allowed to let an aircraft intercept the ILS, this can only be done by APP Controllers. I can only tell an aircraft to intercept the LLZ.
I accept your point. I always do try and speak more slowly for non native English speakers. The ones I was talking about were our friends from the US of A.
As a TC Controller I am not allowed to let an aircraft intercept the ILS, this can only be done by APP Controllers. I can only tell an aircraft to intercept the LLZ.
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especially as speed control is vital and some pilots may assume that the clearance removes the ATC imposed speed.
Don't see the problem speedcontrol wise, the other points, well one would not know.....
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Giles et al,
This particular item has been covered here before.
There is r/t phraseology available at Heathrow, and all other UK airports, that allows what is being requested. Just a shame more don't use it.
We are allowed to say "when localiser established descend on the ILS".
At Heathrow it would be along the lines of "turn left heading 300 degrees report localiser established 27L" as normal then when appropriate and before the arrival has reported loc established "descend to altitude 3,000ft, when localiser established descend with the ILS". It's also recommended these days, following instances of a/c slowing unexpectedly, to say "maintain speed xxx knots" when giving descent on the ILS.
It's a bit more cumbersome than just saying "cleared ILS" but it works and also protects the numerous a/c and helicopters that operate under the approaches.
WF.
I don't think you will ever get your preferred phraseology adopted at Heathrow because of the interaction between such things as Helicopter Routes, London City, White Waltham etc. and the approach. It can be a pain I admit, but I think that the "cleared ILS" phraseology would end up generating more paperwork in the long run, especially as speed control is vital and some pilots may assume that the clearance removes the ATC imposed speed.
There is r/t phraseology available at Heathrow, and all other UK airports, that allows what is being requested. Just a shame more don't use it.
We are allowed to say "when localiser established descend on the ILS".
At Heathrow it would be along the lines of "turn left heading 300 degrees report localiser established 27L" as normal then when appropriate and before the arrival has reported loc established "descend to altitude 3,000ft, when localiser established descend with the ILS". It's also recommended these days, following instances of a/c slowing unexpectedly, to say "maintain speed xxx knots" when giving descent on the ILS.
It's a bit more cumbersome than just saying "cleared ILS" but it works and also protects the numerous a/c and helicopters that operate under the approaches.
WF.
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Just out of interest, how often do you get 'two at once', where two aircraft simultaneously transmit and tread on each others toes as it were? I can see that gaps in RT over London are scarce and at the smallest gap it would seem that two aircraft could quite easily transmit simultaneously.
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M609
I have never flown anywhere that speed control is used as it is at Heathrow and Gatwick. I can't think of anywhere else that it is used to maintain the bare minimum separation between aircraft. There can be no room for the confusion over whether the speed control exists after hearing "cleared ILS" that sometimes occurs as we bimble around the world. Checking with ATC is not an acceptable response either, since this thread is mainly concerned with R/T congestion!! Better to avoid the situation first, and I think that the current phraseology goes some way towards that.
moo
Aircraft step on each other and ATC all the time. I don't know if any statistics exist, but "not infrequently" is how I would characterise it.
G W-H
I have never flown anywhere that speed control is used as it is at Heathrow and Gatwick. I can't think of anywhere else that it is used to maintain the bare minimum separation between aircraft. There can be no room for the confusion over whether the speed control exists after hearing "cleared ILS" that sometimes occurs as we bimble around the world. Checking with ATC is not an acceptable response either, since this thread is mainly concerned with R/T congestion!! Better to avoid the situation first, and I think that the current phraseology goes some way towards that.
moo
Aircraft step on each other and ATC all the time. I don't know if any statistics exist, but "not infrequently" is how I would characterise it.
G W-H
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Justforkix
I have visited Copenhagen (and a very big thank you to the staff who showed me around whilst I was on a long turnaround), but I am sure they would be the first to admit that they don't "pack" almost continuously for large parts of the day. (I don't think they use 2.5nm spacing either, though I could be wrong).
If you get the chance to visit Copenhagen, or any TWR/APP unit during a turnaround, I thoroughly recommend it. It may take a bit of work to organise, but you would be amazed at what you learn.
To take Copenhagen as an example, they don't seem to use the phrase "report callsign only" when they transfer you to the final director like they do at Heathrow, but it is included in the approach plate notes. Talking to them brought my attention to this (especially as they said my company was one that got it wrong quite often) and hopefully that is one goof-up I can avoid.
G W-H
I have visited Copenhagen (and a very big thank you to the staff who showed me around whilst I was on a long turnaround), but I am sure they would be the first to admit that they don't "pack" almost continuously for large parts of the day. (I don't think they use 2.5nm spacing either, though I could be wrong).
If you get the chance to visit Copenhagen, or any TWR/APP unit during a turnaround, I thoroughly recommend it. It may take a bit of work to organise, but you would be amazed at what you learn.
To take Copenhagen as an example, they don't seem to use the phrase "report callsign only" when they transfer you to the final director like they do at Heathrow, but it is included in the approach plate notes. Talking to them brought my attention to this (especially as they said my company was one that got it wrong quite often) and hopefully that is one goof-up I can avoid.
G W-H
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though I could be wrong
I know for a fact that Arlanda use speedcontrol all the time as well, in the same manner as described above. Oslo a bit less i think. (Maybe FinalVectors can enlighten us??)
Granted the peaks are less freqent there, compared to Heathrow, but I don't see why there shold bee any difference in RT.....
As for protection from traffic below/close etc.....how does that factor in? ILS is ILS, and if aircrew decend/slow/(turn) before fully est. they are in vilolation of air law..... (assuming under vectors)
If things need to be highlighted, do so on the plates, not on RT 20000+ times a day?
Don't anyone allso think, that once you have to assume that pilots will f*** up as a rule, that you are walking down a dangerous street?
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M609,
At Heathrow we generally run around a 12-15nm final with a/c establishing on the loc somewhere between 4,000ft and 3,000ft.
On the westerly approaches London City departures climb to an altitude below the Heathrow arrivals (LHR descend to 4A, LCY climb to 3A).
In both directions under the final approach there are numerous helicopter and light a/c movements including one of the country's busiest GA fields almost directly under a 10nm final for the 09s.
The Heathrow arrivals on the 09s descending to 3A are also descending to only 500ft above the base of controlled airspace.
The approach plate that the crew have in front of them will show that the ILS approach starts from 2,500ft on the procedure.
Experience has taught us that although the a/c has only been cleared to either 4A or 3A saying "turn right heading 240 degrees cleared ILS 27L" is likely to be interpreted as a clearance to continue to descend to 2,500ft, the altitude shown on the approach plate.
This would be bad news for any number of reasons given the circumstances described above.
We appreciate that perhaps our system is less than perfect but on the whole it works for us and allows maximum utilisation of the busy airspace around and under the final approaches consistent with keeping the whole operation as safe as possible.
WF.
As for protection from traffic below/close etc.....how does that factor in? ILS is ILS, and if aircrew decend/slow/(turn) before fully est. they are in vilolation of air law..... (assuming under vectors)
On the westerly approaches London City departures climb to an altitude below the Heathrow arrivals (LHR descend to 4A, LCY climb to 3A).
In both directions under the final approach there are numerous helicopter and light a/c movements including one of the country's busiest GA fields almost directly under a 10nm final for the 09s.
The Heathrow arrivals on the 09s descending to 3A are also descending to only 500ft above the base of controlled airspace.
The approach plate that the crew have in front of them will show that the ILS approach starts from 2,500ft on the procedure.
Experience has taught us that although the a/c has only been cleared to either 4A or 3A saying "turn right heading 240 degrees cleared ILS 27L" is likely to be interpreted as a clearance to continue to descend to 2,500ft, the altitude shown on the approach plate.
This would be bad news for any number of reasons given the circumstances described above.
We appreciate that perhaps our system is less than perfect but on the whole it works for us and allows maximum utilisation of the busy airspace around and under the final approaches consistent with keeping the whole operation as safe as possible.
WF.
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WARPED FACTOR
Quick solution: change the (LHR) ILS approach procedure so that it starts at 3000ft.
The approach plate that the crew have in front of them will show that the ILS approach starts from 2,500ft on the procedure.
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M609
I stand corrected!! Thanks for the information - I shall add it to my mental model.
Warped Factor
Thank you. You explained the whole situation very succinctly.
Preppy
Good idea, although 4000' would be better against City departures. In an ideal world of course, we would take a blank sheet of paper and start redesigning UK airspace from scratch.
G W-H
I stand corrected!! Thanks for the information - I shall add it to my mental model.
Warped Factor
Thank you. You explained the whole situation very succinctly.
Preppy
Good idea, although 4000' would be better against City departures. In an ideal world of course, we would take a blank sheet of paper and start redesigning UK airspace from scratch.
G W-H