Would you fly to Saudi Arabia?
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Would you fly to Saudi Arabia
I just wanted to gauge everyones opinion on whether in light of recent events they think it is safe to fly and or nightstop in SA?
I for one am very unsure as to whether I would operate to any destination there.
Will be interesting to hear my managements opinion when I refuse to operate.
here is the summary of the foreign offices advice
We advise British nationals against all but essential travel to Saudi Arabia. On 29 May, terrorists attacked offices and residential compounds in Al Khobar, Eastern Province. A number of people are reported to have been killed. On 22 May a German national was shot dead in Riyadh. On 1 May terrorist attacks in the Red Sea town of Yanbu resulted in at least six deaths, including two British nationals. A truck bomb in Riyadh on 21 April killed five people. In Jeddah on 22 and 23 April five suspected terrorists were killed in exchanges of fire with the Saudi authorities. There were terrorist attacks in Riyadh in May and November 2003. We continue to believe that terrorists remain determined to carry out further attacks in Saudi Arabia, and that these may be in the final stages of preparation.
If you choose to travel to, or remain in, Saudi Arabia you should take all necessary steps to protect your safety and should make sure you have confidence in your individual security arrangements.
You should maintain a high level of vigilance, particularly in public places frequented by foreigners such as hotels, restaurants and shopping malls. You should adopt a low profile and avoid public gatherings, which could lead to disorder.
and here is the link to read the rest of the report
http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket%2FXcelerate%2FShowPage&c=Page&cid= 1007029390590&a=KCountryAdvice&aid=1013618387135
safe and happy flying
I for one am very unsure as to whether I would operate to any destination there.
Will be interesting to hear my managements opinion when I refuse to operate.
here is the summary of the foreign offices advice
We advise British nationals against all but essential travel to Saudi Arabia. On 29 May, terrorists attacked offices and residential compounds in Al Khobar, Eastern Province. A number of people are reported to have been killed. On 22 May a German national was shot dead in Riyadh. On 1 May terrorist attacks in the Red Sea town of Yanbu resulted in at least six deaths, including two British nationals. A truck bomb in Riyadh on 21 April killed five people. In Jeddah on 22 and 23 April five suspected terrorists were killed in exchanges of fire with the Saudi authorities. There were terrorist attacks in Riyadh in May and November 2003. We continue to believe that terrorists remain determined to carry out further attacks in Saudi Arabia, and that these may be in the final stages of preparation.
If you choose to travel to, or remain in, Saudi Arabia you should take all necessary steps to protect your safety and should make sure you have confidence in your individual security arrangements.
You should maintain a high level of vigilance, particularly in public places frequented by foreigners such as hotels, restaurants and shopping malls. You should adopt a low profile and avoid public gatherings, which could lead to disorder.
and here is the link to read the rest of the report
http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket%2FXcelerate%2FShowPage&c=Page&cid= 1007029390590&a=KCountryAdvice&aid=1013618387135
safe and happy flying
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Crash1
With that report, I for one would flat out refuse the trip to SA. We have a simular problem with our company as we fly freight to Kuwait and Bahrain frequently, as well as other un-secure locations. Several months ago Bahrain was put on a High Alert and we as crewmembers we were not advised and spent two days in a high profile hotel. Needless to say I was not pleased after finding this out later. I don't think any flying job is worth the risk. Some company's(especially freighters) out there could give a rats ass about the security of there employees and are more concerned about the end result and that's $$$$$$$. 
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Crash 1.
Suspect should you refuse to operate, you may get a 'dont come Monday' letter.
The company will nearly always find someone to replace you.
Airlines have security procedures in place to cater for the problem....usually.
Suspect should you refuse to operate, you may get a 'dont come Monday' letter.
The company will nearly always find someone to replace you.
Airlines have security procedures in place to cater for the problem....usually.
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Why don't you contact your life insurance / loss-of-license company and ask them ( in writing ) the following question: "Given the present situation in Saudi Arabia, bearing in mind the current government warnings, if I am required to go there by the airline for whom I work, during which I am attacked by 'terrorists' and maimed / killed, will you pay out in full on the insurance policy which I have with you” ?
For what follows the OED definition of 'essential' = absolutely necessary, indispensable.
The UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office currently advises the following:
The Australian Dept. Foreign Affairs & Trade says:
The USA Department of State says:
For what follows the OED definition of 'essential' = absolutely necessary, indispensable.
The UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office currently advises the following:
Unless on essential business, the FCO advises against travel to Saudi Arabia
Australians should defer non-essential travel to Saudi Arabia.
The Department of State warns U.S. citizens to defer travel to Saudi Arabia. Private American citizens currently in Saudi Arabia are strongly urged to depart.
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My itinerary is
Get off aeroplane thro arrivals onto hotel transport get off at the hotel stay in hotel room until pick up. Get on hotel transport get off at departures thro crew immigration back on aeroplane.
It is safe but if you want to leave hotel then maybe your safety will decrease exponentially with time outside
Good luck
Get off aeroplane thro arrivals onto hotel transport get off at the hotel stay in hotel room until pick up. Get on hotel transport get off at departures thro crew immigration back on aeroplane.
It is safe but if you want to leave hotel then maybe your safety will decrease exponentially with time outside
Good luck
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Engineer – empirically, it is NOT safe, i.e. just ask 22 people ( or, more to the point, ask the relatives of those ) who were murdered within the 'secure compound' at al-Khobar on the 29th May.
The Control Risks Group has the following to say:
The Control Risks Group has the following to say:
Control Risks continues to advise foreign personnel to exercise utmost caution in Saudi Arabia. Companies should proceed on the assumption that the terrorist threat will not diminish in the near future and take steps now to minimise their exposure. Business travel can continue provided that visitors are fully confident in their security arrangements, in particular those governing hotels, offices, work sites and local movement.
If companies are in any doubt about the adequacy of their arrangements, they should consider temporarily relocating dependents and non-essential staff to safer locations, inside or outside Saudi Arabia. As a separate measure, they may also wish to consider offering dependents and non-essential staff the option of withdrawal on a voluntary basis.
If companies are in any doubt about the adequacy of their arrangements, they should consider temporarily relocating dependents and non-essential staff to safer locations, inside or outside Saudi Arabia. As a separate measure, they may also wish to consider offering dependents and non-essential staff the option of withdrawal on a voluntary basis.
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Terrorism is a World wide phenomena, but it's small scale compared to major wars; and airline services into Europe did not stop during WWII, nor into Saigon nor into Hanoi during the Vietnam War... There's been a war of terror in Colombia for the past 30 years (FARC) as there had been in Peru (Shining Path)...what can you do as an airline pilot? Are you really in a position to selectively refuse to fly into certain countries? If not, you might ease your paranoia by not walking near embassies, near government buildings, near tourist spots.... You know, common sense stuff. Get a hotel room far away from the lobby, but on a lower floor from where you could safely jump out of the window.
Crash 1
Just a very minor point, I have never seen Saudi Arabia abbreviated they way you did in your initial post. "The Kingdom" maybe but SA is always South Africa.........
Just a very minor point, I have never seen Saudi Arabia abbreviated they way you did in your initial post. "The Kingdom" maybe but SA is always South Africa.........
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Would I fly into Saudi?
Yes. but only if I was trying to get out of somewhere worse... like Iraq!
Fortunately I won't be within 5,000NM of either dump in the forseeable...
R1
Yes. but only if I was trying to get out of somewhere worse... like Iraq!
Fortunately I won't be within 5,000NM of either dump in the forseeable...
R1
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As a non 'professional pilot' and not being associated with the aviation industry I wonder if I should even post here? (See another thread in this forum)
However... having lived and worked in most of the Gulf States over the last 20 years I feel able to comment intelligently.
Crash
I suspect that your employers definition of "essential" would be that it IS to THEIR business. As a previous poster has said, refusal may result in termination!
Ali
I suspect that there is as much danger to aircrew as anyone else. Devil's Advocate has pointed out that some 22 unfortunate individuals have lost their lives so there IS a risk.
How great the risk TO EACH INDIVIDUAL is an interesting question and I do not have the background to even guess (any Risk Analysis specialists reading?). However, each of us indulges in activities that involve risk every day, from geting out of bed onwards.
Minimising those risks is a sensible course of action.
As an afterthought Crash, would you consider refusing to operate to Madrid because of the fairly recent bombings there?
However... having lived and worked in most of the Gulf States over the last 20 years I feel able to comment intelligently.
Crash
I suspect that your employers definition of "essential" would be that it IS to THEIR business. As a previous poster has said, refusal may result in termination!
Ali
I suspect that there is as much danger to aircrew as anyone else. Devil's Advocate has pointed out that some 22 unfortunate individuals have lost their lives so there IS a risk.
How great the risk TO EACH INDIVIDUAL is an interesting question and I do not have the background to even guess (any Risk Analysis specialists reading?). However, each of us indulges in activities that involve risk every day, from geting out of bed onwards.
Minimising those risks is a sensible course of action.
As an afterthought Crash, would you consider refusing to operate to Madrid because of the fairly recent bombings there?
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Earning a wage is not considered 'essential' and therefore in the eyes of our [UK] government you should not go. Ultimately however, the choice of whether to visit Saudi is yours and yours alone. Nobody is forcing you to go, not even your employer, they cannot force you to work for them.
All you can do is try to learn as much as you can about the situation, balance that with your financial and family commitments, and then decide whether the risks are worth the rewards -- if not then look for another job.
If you do decide to go, and God forbid anything untoward did happen, then sadly many people would say "Well, he knew the risks". Harsh, but true.
Ultimately everyones answer to this question will be different, and only you can decide.
All you can do is try to learn as much as you can about the situation, balance that with your financial and family commitments, and then decide whether the risks are worth the rewards -- if not then look for another job.
If you do decide to go, and God forbid anything untoward did happen, then sadly many people would say "Well, he knew the risks". Harsh, but true.
Ultimately everyones answer to this question will be different, and only you can decide.
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Another consideration would be are you a female?
That would skew your risk factor quite a bit.
I have lived in Jeddah for various periods of time and did not really feel threatened personally...........
But that was several years ago.
Would I go there now?
Hmmmm
It depends on what for, if it meant losing my employment with a company and I had no other job avaliable I probably would go, while I was desperately looking for other work.
Chuck
That would skew your risk factor quite a bit.
I have lived in Jeddah for various periods of time and did not really feel threatened personally...........
But that was several years ago.
Would I go there now?
Hmmmm
It depends on what for, if it meant losing my employment with a company and I had no other job avaliable I probably would go, while I was desperately looking for other work.
Chuck
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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It’s probably time that the airline management types concerned start thinking about canceling night stops in the Kingdom, as I believe BA did at the start of the current war.
My particular concern is Riyadh, where much of the fanaticism that drives these acts of terror originates. That, coupled with the hour-long drive through empty desert to get downtown, makes it worrisome. For anyone who wants to avoid that particular risk, there is the Sahara Hotel at the airport. The joint is a dump, but it’s close enough to the tarmac to provide at least the possibility of a quick getaway.
My particular concern is Riyadh, where much of the fanaticism that drives these acts of terror originates. That, coupled with the hour-long drive through empty desert to get downtown, makes it worrisome. For anyone who wants to avoid that particular risk, there is the Sahara Hotel at the airport. The joint is a dump, but it’s close enough to the tarmac to provide at least the possibility of a quick getaway.
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Well Well Well, I should be in the Kingdom within the next few days or weeks to change the bosses second wife for his first wife!
The crew was actually talking about this and most of us do not feel very comfortable with the prospects! But what can we do?? The pink slips will come that's for sure if we do decide to do something. So the decision is already made due to the bad habits I have, feed the family, pay the rent etc.....At 8:33 AM, (Wed) just now Reuters just announced a shoot out in Riyadh after "expats" were shot at........
It might just be a "tech" stop if we can put the pressure on!
Good luck to all
The crew was actually talking about this and most of us do not feel very comfortable with the prospects! But what can we do?? The pink slips will come that's for sure if we do decide to do something. So the decision is already made due to the bad habits I have, feed the family, pay the rent etc.....At 8:33 AM, (Wed) just now Reuters just announced a shoot out in Riyadh after "expats" were shot at........
It might just be a "tech" stop if we can put the pressure on!
Good luck to all
I am a figment of my own imagination
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Would have to admit that after a long time residency in the Kingdom I will be slightly more wary than I have ever felt before when I go back this week. There are a lot of well intentioned and good people there but it only takes a few fruitcakes to spoil ones day, and they unfortunately are amongst us wherever we live. Some parts of the Kingdom could be considered higher risk areas, Gassim and Madina will certainly be on my do not visit list. And Dahran/Dammam and Riyadh probably more heads-up than Jeddah.
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Insurance
In regard to Devils A point on insurance: my life insurance company replied to the same question that unless war had been declared in the country as a pilot I would still be covered no matter what was happening on the streets or what government alerts were current. I proceeded to my Jeddah base and luckily saw no violence for the 2 month stint. One further point to help allay your fears, lightening follows it's rule as Bali and Madrid seem to demonstrate.