United Airlines may fail
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United Airlines may fail
"Before September 11 we were not in a comfortable financial state, with costs exceeding our revenue on a daily basis," Goodwin wrote. "Today, the situation is exacerbated with costs exceeding revenues at four times the pre-September 11 rate. Today, we are literally hemorrhaging money.
"Clearly this bleeding has to be stopped – and soon – or United will perish sometime next year."
Even with a $15 billion industry bailout, airline officials have speculated that bankruptcy was imminent for weaker carriers, although they did not name them.
"We're so far away from break-even that it's not even worth calculating," David Swierenga, chief economist at the Air Transport Association, said last month after the bailout had been approved.
"Clearly this bleeding has to be stopped – and soon – or United will perish sometime next year."
Even with a $15 billion industry bailout, airline officials have speculated that bankruptcy was imminent for weaker carriers, although they did not name them.
"We're so far away from break-even that it's not even worth calculating," David Swierenga, chief economist at the Air Transport Association, said last month after the bailout had been approved.
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If this is a true reflection of the state of UAL then commercial aviation is in more poo than I had realised. bmi code-share on many routes with UAL and have close commercial links with this and other major Star Alliance partners and I had felt reasonably sure that by supporting each other these airlines would pull through the latest difficulties in time. However if company's as large and well established as UAL are talking seriously about insolvency then the situation is dire. Can anyone other ppruners thrown any more light on the real state of play within UAL?
Some analysts reckoned that as of 12 Sept, UA had about 7 weeks of cash left. They were by no means the worst off but certainly not the best (Southwest with about 40 weeks). The US Govt money will is much needed but will in reality cover cash spent in the first few weeks post 11th Sept.
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I find it hardly surprising that UAL, which led the industry with massive pay raises for its pilots, now find themselves nearly insolvent. What goes 'round comes around.
UAL is also parking massive numbers of aircraft, two more arrived at VCV yesterday. Many more carriers will have to downsize in order to survive in the present economic climate. The more senior pilots get the big bucks, the younger ones'.....out on the street. Good 'ole ALPA at work...again.
The numbers of UAL aircraft parked so far is 28, and the folks at VCV have been told to expect a total of 117. UAL is also leasing engines to raise cash.....not a good sign at all.
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]
UAL is also parking massive numbers of aircraft, two more arrived at VCV yesterday. Many more carriers will have to downsize in order to survive in the present economic climate. The more senior pilots get the big bucks, the younger ones'.....out on the street. Good 'ole ALPA at work...again.
The numbers of UAL aircraft parked so far is 28, and the folks at VCV have been told to expect a total of 117. UAL is also leasing engines to raise cash.....not a good sign at all.
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]
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fishbed, 411A
As it was mentioned during debates of Swissair's failure, it is not the salary of a single employee group that will cause a company to falter. Your right though, if even UAL is just about to go bust than we're in some deep …..
As it was mentioned during debates of Swissair's failure, it is not the salary of a single employee group that will cause a company to falter. Your right though, if even UAL is just about to go bust than we're in some deep …..
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UAL's management (aka Godwin) made a deal with the Devil and agreed with the pilots' back-breaking salary demands in order to gain their compliance for the proposed UAL-USairways deal. Godwin needed their help to facilitate the deal. In the process, he has screwed the airline - and he doesn't take any responsibility for that.
That guy should be FIRED QUICKLY and a restructuring plan should be hashed out quickly.
I heard that UAL's schedule may be reduced by 1/3 - that's a good start. Of course, the UAL pilots will likely get VERY UPSET should less-costly and lower-capacity commuter operations be used in place of higher-capacity aircraft in a down market...
C'mon - let's focus on saving the airline and adopt a long-term perspective... I'm tired of the constant squabbling.
That guy should be FIRED QUICKLY and a restructuring plan should be hashed out quickly.
I heard that UAL's schedule may be reduced by 1/3 - that's a good start. Of course, the UAL pilots will likely get VERY UPSET should less-costly and lower-capacity commuter operations be used in place of higher-capacity aircraft in a down market...
C'mon - let's focus on saving the airline and adopt a long-term perspective... I'm tired of the constant squabbling.
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The best way to improve United's position is to get new management. There is barely an employee in United that does not, literally, hate the present crowd. Here is a team that has bungled deals costing the company many millions of dollars. Yet, despite recent publicity grabbing pay cuts, they have already individually taken home millions of dollars this year while leading the company into economic problems well before Sep.11. They still plan to go ahead with an executive jet subsidiary regardless of the fact that it is these very executives who are not travelling now. By the way, present pilots and flight att. who are being layed off have virtually been told not to bother to apply for the jobs which will be created.
United is in trouble along with the other airlines. However, in relative terms, the company is in a strong position if it can develop an effective business plan that is not based on the old, tired, squeeze the emloyees to make a profit idea. The route structure is there, the efficient aircraft are there, experienced employees are there, fuel costs are down, the Gov. is willing to give financial help, United has cash reserves. It is only poor management which will prevent United rising to the top of the heap when the economy improves.
By the way 411 I have suffered your rantings against ALPA and pilots in general far too long. You are using our paychecks and working conditions as an excuse with which to make snide attacks on pilots in general at any opportunity. What are you, a failed pilot who is bitter because he could not make the grade? Did some pilots dislike your personality so much that they kept you out of the best professional group on Earth? Do you feel inferior because a twenty year old turbo-prop new hire co-pilot gets more respect than you do? Do you feel powerful sitting at your computer keyboard attacking pilots because they look on people like you as clerical help? The very fact that you have the insensitivity to continue to call pilots overpaid etc. so soon after SEPT.11th clearly demonstrates your rabid mindset and level of intelligence. Look forward to meeting you in person some day!
United is in trouble along with the other airlines. However, in relative terms, the company is in a strong position if it can develop an effective business plan that is not based on the old, tired, squeeze the emloyees to make a profit idea. The route structure is there, the efficient aircraft are there, experienced employees are there, fuel costs are down, the Gov. is willing to give financial help, United has cash reserves. It is only poor management which will prevent United rising to the top of the heap when the economy improves.
By the way 411 I have suffered your rantings against ALPA and pilots in general far too long. You are using our paychecks and working conditions as an excuse with which to make snide attacks on pilots in general at any opportunity. What are you, a failed pilot who is bitter because he could not make the grade? Did some pilots dislike your personality so much that they kept you out of the best professional group on Earth? Do you feel inferior because a twenty year old turbo-prop new hire co-pilot gets more respect than you do? Do you feel powerful sitting at your computer keyboard attacking pilots because they look on people like you as clerical help? The very fact that you have the insensitivity to continue to call pilots overpaid etc. so soon after SEPT.11th clearly demonstrates your rabid mindset and level of intelligence. Look forward to meeting you in person some day!
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Well there Boing, you sure do have a very large chip in your shoulder. I personally have done very well worldwide in airline flying.... ALPA has always padded the pockets of the senior guys at the expense of the juniors, and this will never change. The UAL guys started the ball rolling with the super-high salary increases, now these (junior) guys get to visit the unemployment line. They will never understand the BS from the MEC....and will have to learn the hard way.
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411A it's fact of life that 'the senior guy' makes more than the junior guy, and that goes for every walk of life where there are years of service increments or scales.
See, the logic is that you'll eventually become 'senior' too and can then be said to have earned your highly inflated salary.
Or would you prefer it worked the other way round?
See, the logic is that you'll eventually become 'senior' too and can then be said to have earned your highly inflated salary.
Or would you prefer it worked the other way round?
I had an arsehole transplant but the arsehole rejected me, which is why I write such rubbish
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Maxalt;
Now that you asked but I would like to see a different system, although you didn't ask me directly!
I'd like to see the best pilots kept on, graded on Performance and Ability not only in the plane but also in the Sim. Forget about age or seniority, it's what have you done for me lately and what are you capable of doing in the future?
What other industries apart from the airline industry and universities/schools grade performance on tenure as opposed to demonstrated ability?
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: whatshouldiuse ]
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: whatshouldiuse ]
Now that you asked but I would like to see a different system, although you didn't ask me directly!
I'd like to see the best pilots kept on, graded on Performance and Ability not only in the plane but also in the Sim. Forget about age or seniority, it's what have you done for me lately and what are you capable of doing in the future?
What other industries apart from the airline industry and universities/schools grade performance on tenure as opposed to demonstrated ability?
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: whatshouldiuse ]
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: whatshouldiuse ]
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Lavdumper...how right you are...a deal with the devil....but don't the pilots "own" UAL? Seems if I owned a business and it was about to go under I'd try to think of some way to turn it around...like let's say start with a (duh) paycut...
But maybe that's too simple of an answer...
By the way, 411A, I happen to agree with you on this one, and I stand ready to catch the flak, as I have done before on the ground and in flight...
But maybe that's too simple of an answer...
By the way, 411A, I happen to agree with you on this one, and I stand ready to catch the flak, as I have done before on the ground and in flight...
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Folks,
IMO, the simple fact is that Goodwin failed to get the UAL employees on board before announcing the UAL/US Air deal. This just gave Rick Dubinsky the opportunity to back up the ALPA pay truck to UAL's loading dock and reward a "non protagonist" attitude with a deserved payraise.
411A..UAL's upper echelon "earned" over $10 Million a PIECE for their stewardship. You really want to tell me they can justify that reward?
United WILL survive. Clearly, new management is needed (they've not had any for the past two years!). If UAL enters Chapter 11 it won't be the end of the World. What 411a and his kind fail to realize is that we need to leave this profession in a better state than we found it. 411a and guv (PrIcK) always lean toward blaming "greedy" employee goups. They've been wrong before (a time or two) and they're wrong YET AGAIN.
That's why they'll never ammount to anything.
IMO, the simple fact is that Goodwin failed to get the UAL employees on board before announcing the UAL/US Air deal. This just gave Rick Dubinsky the opportunity to back up the ALPA pay truck to UAL's loading dock and reward a "non protagonist" attitude with a deserved payraise.
411A..UAL's upper echelon "earned" over $10 Million a PIECE for their stewardship. You really want to tell me they can justify that reward?
United WILL survive. Clearly, new management is needed (they've not had any for the past two years!). If UAL enters Chapter 11 it won't be the end of the World. What 411a and his kind fail to realize is that we need to leave this profession in a better state than we found it. 411a and guv (PrIcK) always lean toward blaming "greedy" employee goups. They've been wrong before (a time or two) and they're wrong YET AGAIN.
That's why they'll never ammount to anything.
World Airline News Sept 28 reports the following.
Daily net cash burns. AA 12M, UA 11.7M
Sept 10 Cash position. AA 969M, UA 2553M
AA and UA face massive liabilities that dwarf their equity. UA employees are in for a double whammy if their is a bankruptcy filing, with massive layoffs and the ESOP equity wiped out.
UA have already taken 743 flights out of the daily schedule to try to stop the bleeding.
Does anybody know what life was like in 1929-1933 ?.
Daily net cash burns. AA 12M, UA 11.7M
Sept 10 Cash position. AA 969M, UA 2553M
AA and UA face massive liabilities that dwarf their equity. UA employees are in for a double whammy if their is a bankruptcy filing, with massive layoffs and the ESOP equity wiped out.
UA have already taken 743 flights out of the daily schedule to try to stop the bleeding.
Does anybody know what life was like in 1929-1933 ?.
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411, If you have done well out of flying aeroplanes it is because the unions and pilots you deride have negotiated rates for the the job which provided you with a comparable and decent salary. Do you think if all airline pilots were paid $1000 a month then you would have done so well during your working time as a pilot.
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Time for a little reality check, 411A. Pilot's pay for the last 15-20 years has lagged behind inflation by well over 20%. The recent raises at UAL & DAL that you call "back-breaking" and "super-high" only bring pilots up to parity with inflation. Meanwhile, executive compensation has increased exponentially, at 7 times the rate of inflation. Those are the facts.
If you expect me to feel guilty for merely keeping up with inflation, you're sadly mistaken.
I'd suggest you check out the executive pay watch at www.aflcio.org, and the June 25 2001 issue of Fortune magazine to learn more about the "great CEO pay heist."
If you expect me to feel guilty for merely keeping up with inflation, you're sadly mistaken.
I'd suggest you check out the executive pay watch at www.aflcio.org, and the June 25 2001 issue of Fortune magazine to learn more about the "great CEO pay heist."
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How about we furlough from the top of the seniority list? The company saves more money, everyone moves up, and the starving get to continue to eat spaghetti.
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Well BOING, there were no negotiated pay rates where I have worked for the last 25+ years, overseas tax-free salaries were offered to attract experience, and those airlines received the experience that they paid for, especially with regard to check & training. And I certainly would have to agree with others here when executive management salaries and bonus packages are mentioned. Considering the poor level of management that many airlines have received, these execs should work for nothing...because that is what many of them have put back into the companies they have "managed". Harding Lawrence (Braniff), Icahn (TWA), Borman (EAL), Conway (AmWest, National) and the list goes on...
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I´d like to see a few senior captains, who´ve put in their 25 or so years, who have their pension all set, voluntarily take early retirement and thereby save the jobs of five newhires who have new wives and young kids and a mortgage.
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I agree wit Bigmouth, if your at the top and can afford to retire, there is no time like the present. I still have 20 years to go and have quite a few commitments that I would like to see through. I dont think Pilots are overpaid, I don't think were underpaid either, and Alpa/Balpa don't always do whats best for all. I think the employers should expect to get a fair days work out of a pilot for a fair days pay, there are a quite a few pilots around that expect a cushy life style and not have to work too hard for it. Where four crews per acft should be sufficient airlines have to hire 5 or 6 to get the same job done, thats what costs. Don't Know about the US but in merry old England it seems that most of the costs of employing someone don't come from the wages that they are paid but go to the government in taxes. Executives get paid far too much, but then again there life expectancy (employment wise) can be quite short. Though it never fails to amaze that some who can completly F*&k a company up one day can wlk into another executive position the next. The worst thing that ever happened to industry on a whole was that the bean counters got hold of them and would spend Pounds to save pence. To help things it would be better for the govt to make it more expensive to lay someone of than it is to hire them.
To get back to the thread I certainly hope UAL make it adn they certainly aren't too big to go down. Pan Am were retty big at one stage and it didn't save them.
Hang on were in for a bumpy ride.
Where in Afghanistan would like this 747 parked.
To get back to the thread I certainly hope UAL make it adn they certainly aren't too big to go down. Pan Am were retty big at one stage and it didn't save them.
Hang on were in for a bumpy ride.
Where in Afghanistan would like this 747 parked.
