interception over Holland
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interception over Holland
Saturday afternoon 2 F16's from leeuwarden Airbase in the Netherlands according a Dutch news agency intercepted a Boeing 737. The aircraft was unknown to Eurocontrol. It flew from north to south at an alt of 7.5 km. After indentification the F16's escorted the 737 to the border. The Ministry of Defense declined to comment on the destination or company.javascript:smilie('
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Nothing turned up with Google and my usual sources know nothing or are saying nothing.
Unusual for the luchtmacht to be active on a Saturday, especially as it was a long weekend
Unusual for the luchtmacht to be active on a Saturday, especially as it was a long weekend
I doubt if the aircraft was "unknown" to Eurocontrol (i.e. Maastricht Control). More likely that there had been no radio contact with ATC for some time - probably even before entering Maastricht airspace. Since 911 in such circumstances it is standard practice to scramble the air force.
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T'was indeed as aireps reported. Additionally I can tell you that the a/c last had radio contact in Stavanger airspace. Then silence through Copenhagen and almost all of Maastricht airspace. Fighters scrambled and made visual contact with the B737 in the vicinity of PAM. Radio contact re-established with Maastricht in the vicinity of the Belgian/French border!!
Last edited by Hotel Tango; 2nd May 2004 at 19:22.
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On their way to intercept, both F-16 aircraft went supersonic. Newspapers reported there were about 80 phonecalls received at 112 (Dutch 911) reporting 'some kind of explosion'....
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boxmover: It's just that I have never flown nor ever heard of anybody fly across western Europe at altitudes or flight levels designated in meters, much less in km! And technically, 7.5 km (7500 meters) would translate into 24,607 feet which is not an appropriate cruising altitude/level in controlled upper airspace.
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Don't worry Glueball. Of course you are right, we don't use flightlevels in meters in Western Europe.
Everybody knows that, but it was news from a news agency and they use km for the general public.
Those details are not important. What is worrying however is that collegues are flying in the crowded skies of western Europe and don't realize that something is wrong when the radio is quiet for some time.....('
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Everybody knows that, but it was news from a news agency and they use km for the general public.
Those details are not important. What is worrying however is that collegues are flying in the crowded skies of western Europe and don't realize that something is wrong when the radio is quiet for some time.....('
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What is worrying however is that collegues are flying in the crowded skies of western Europe and don't realize that something is wrong when the radio is quiet for some time
Not all that unusual I'm afraid to say. Although in all fairness it doesn't usually last as long as in this particular case.
We've been told that there is a known technical reason for this (with some radios). Nevertheless, I'm also inclined to reflect on just how much silence a cockpit crew would expect in a busy area of Europe in the middle of a very busy day without being aware that perhaps something's amiss? I've had the experience many a time in the middle of the night when traffic is very light, and there's been a protracted silence, that an aircraft has enquired if we're still there! I think this guy stayed quiet roughly for 55 mins or so.
Last edited by Hotel Tango; 3rd May 2004 at 19:53.
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Speaking of radio silence on earlier posts, back in the 1970s, usually the last point of contact on trans-Atlantic runs was Moncton Control in New Brunswick, Canada.
I was with a controller there who said it could be the busiest and the loneliest. The busiest was when the evening traffic from New York, Toronto and Montreal set off for Europe, and then the before noon traffic when they'd all come back again.
At times in between, they said they were mostly bored to death with nary a squelch on the speaker, because the ear phones had been taken off long ago. Sometimes they'd pick up a signal from an aircraft and chat, just to pass the time away.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Moncton Control took over for Goose Bay, Labrador, Radio sometimes in the late 1950s or early 1960s. Also, is Moncton still a player?
I was with a controller there who said it could be the busiest and the loneliest. The busiest was when the evening traffic from New York, Toronto and Montreal set off for Europe, and then the before noon traffic when they'd all come back again.
At times in between, they said they were mostly bored to death with nary a squelch on the speaker, because the ear phones had been taken off long ago. Sometimes they'd pick up a signal from an aircraft and chat, just to pass the time away.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Moncton Control took over for Goose Bay, Labrador, Radio sometimes in the late 1950s or early 1960s. Also, is Moncton still a player?
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RTF and interceptions are Usual business. They just get more systematic since 9.11. No big deal nowadays and since nothing serious hapens afterwards, the problem continues.
To my US colleagues : transposing that same situation in the USA : let's say a 737 coming from Mexico dest Canada in RTF for 700 miles after the Mex border . Would it be just intercepted and escorted to the border or forced to land in a USAF base somewhere in between ?
That could perhaps explain why there are apparently far fewer long unitentional RTF in the US than in Europe.
To my US colleagues : transposing that same situation in the USA : let's say a 737 coming from Mexico dest Canada in RTF for 700 miles after the Mex border . Would it be just intercepted and escorted to the border or forced to land in a USAF base somewhere in between ?
That could perhaps explain why there are apparently far fewer long unitentional RTF in the US than in Europe.
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An altitude of 7,5 km the information seems to have originated with the Dutch newspaper "de Telegraaf", never one to let the truth stand in the way of a good story.
unknown to Maastricht The flight was at all times known to the Maastricht system. The UIR boundary between Maastricht and Copenhagen is also the ORCAM boundary so a squawk change is made here. The aircraft was therefore not on the squawk expected by Air Defence. It is now a requirement that Air Defence be advised of all traffic in Radio Failure and the decision whether or not to intercept rests with them.
As stated above the crew sat fat, dumb and happy through some of Europe's busiest airspace, not even seeing the interceptors - whatever happened to airmanship?
There was discussion that the costs involved in similar cases would be charged to the responsible operator. I'd love to see the invoice:
To providing 2 F16 aircraft for 1 hour
Plus overtime @ 200% (weekend rate)
Plus VAT
Do this often enough and it will fill all shortages in the defence budget
The entity fomerly known as Lon More
Here before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus was a Rigger
unknown to Maastricht The flight was at all times known to the Maastricht system. The UIR boundary between Maastricht and Copenhagen is also the ORCAM boundary so a squawk change is made here. The aircraft was therefore not on the squawk expected by Air Defence. It is now a requirement that Air Defence be advised of all traffic in Radio Failure and the decision whether or not to intercept rests with them.
As stated above the crew sat fat, dumb and happy through some of Europe's busiest airspace, not even seeing the interceptors - whatever happened to airmanship?
There was discussion that the costs involved in similar cases would be charged to the responsible operator. I'd love to see the invoice:
To providing 2 F16 aircraft for 1 hour
Plus overtime @ 200% (weekend rate)
Plus VAT
Do this often enough and it will fill all shortages in the defence budget
The entity fomerly known as Lon More
Here before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus was a Rigger
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The reported altitude of 7,5 km wasn't made up by the newspaper "De Telegraaf". It originated from the official Dutch news agency ANP. The Telegraaf report is almost an identical copy of the ANP news release and was also carried by other Dutch newspapers, such as "Algemeen Dagblad".
That said, ANP can make mistakes too. Anyway, in the Department of Defence press release on this interception, there isn't any reference to an altitude of the unidentified a/c. http://www.mindef.nl/nieuws/nieuwsbe...schepping.html
Cheers,
Aireps
That said, ANP can make mistakes too. Anyway, in the Department of Defence press release on this interception, there isn't any reference to an altitude of the unidentified a/c. http://www.mindef.nl/nieuws/nieuwsbe...schepping.html
Cheers,
Aireps
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Someone in the Netherlands who monitored the comms between Fighter Control and the two F16s during the interception claims that the interception took place between FL310 and FL340. This makes more sense than altitude 7,5 km (FL245) mentioned in the news release from press agency ANP.
Cheers,
Aireps
Cheers,
Aireps
