BHX closed
Call me a bluff old traditionalist but I'd be rather more interested to know why the aircraft left the taxiway as opposed to why another aircraft happened to have a stack of holding fuel !
Beamer
I agree , i believe the Q400 is quite a tricky beast to handle in flight and on the ground. Also a lot of inexperience in Flybe . I once positioned on a Flybe Dash 8 and the combined flight time of the crew was just 2500h .
NF
I agree , i believe the Q400 is quite a tricky beast to handle in flight and on the ground. Also a lot of inexperience in Flybe . I once positioned on a Flybe Dash 8 and the combined flight time of the crew was just 2500h .
NF
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The FlyBe flight Operations Director is famous for saying that he preffered people not to stay to long with the airline as they became a greater burden from the point of yearly increments and pension contributions etc - From a flight safety angle that is criminal and also very sad.
Interesting posts from NILFurther and ALTSEL - could it also be inferred from this that the captain of the Britannia 757 which did exactly the same thing was also "inexperienced", or is this a bit of flybe bashing?
As far as I know the names of the crew haven't been released yet within the company or outside - but if it is who we believe it is the captain was very experienced, with something between 15 and 20 thousand hours the majority of it on medium/heavy turboprops.
As far as the Q400 being difficult to handle, Flybe Q400s have been landing on this runway many times a day for the last two years with no incidents - if the aircraft was that hard to fly would not some of these 2500 hour crews which you allege exist have had problems before now?
As has been previously mentioned on this forum when conjecturing about accidents to commuter aircraft hours cannot be the only measure of experience - a pilot with 2000 hours of turboprop operations with Flybe would have performed almost that many landings either as PF or PNF - this sort of exposure to the critical phases of flight would take many more years and thousands of hours to amass in medium or longhaul operations.
No doubt in time the AAIB will tell us what actually caused the problem.
As far as I know the names of the crew haven't been released yet within the company or outside - but if it is who we believe it is the captain was very experienced, with something between 15 and 20 thousand hours the majority of it on medium/heavy turboprops.
As far as the Q400 being difficult to handle, Flybe Q400s have been landing on this runway many times a day for the last two years with no incidents - if the aircraft was that hard to fly would not some of these 2500 hour crews which you allege exist have had problems before now?
As has been previously mentioned on this forum when conjecturing about accidents to commuter aircraft hours cannot be the only measure of experience - a pilot with 2000 hours of turboprop operations with Flybe would have performed almost that many landings either as PF or PNF - this sort of exposure to the critical phases of flight would take many more years and thousands of hours to amass in medium or longhaul operations.
No doubt in time the AAIB will tell us what actually caused the problem.
ALTSEL:
"From a flight safety angle that is criminal and also very sad".
Now I can understand the "very sad" bit but could you please explain the "criminal" and "flight safety" bits to the rest of us please?
Moving on; was not the "BY 757" a "BY 767" positioning empty from Manchester?
"From a flight safety angle that is criminal and also very sad".
Now I can understand the "very sad" bit but could you please explain the "criminal" and "flight safety" bits to the rest of us please?
Moving on; was not the "BY 757" a "BY 767" positioning empty from Manchester?
Excrab
You are obviously better informed than i am ( i no longer work for Flybe).
I was merely saying that ( like a lot of regional outfits) the overall experience level of flybe v say BA or Virgin is lower and that this can sometimes be a factor in incidents . This is after all a rumour /news thread !
As regards my "allegation" of 2500 hours crew , if you identify yourself to me in a PM i will give you the names of the crew and the month of the alleged flight. .......sorry i dont remember the exact date !
Before i do that , would you care to confirm or deny on this forum that the flybe limit for a Dash command was 2500 hours , that certain individuals in the past recived commands with less total time than this and that there was nothing to stop them flying with FO who had just started their flying careers ?
NF
You are obviously better informed than i am ( i no longer work for Flybe).
I was merely saying that ( like a lot of regional outfits) the overall experience level of flybe v say BA or Virgin is lower and that this can sometimes be a factor in incidents . This is after all a rumour /news thread !
As regards my "allegation" of 2500 hours crew , if you identify yourself to me in a PM i will give you the names of the crew and the month of the alleged flight. .......sorry i dont remember the exact date !
Before i do that , would you care to confirm or deny on this forum that the flybe limit for a Dash command was 2500 hours , that certain individuals in the past recived commands with less total time than this and that there was nothing to stop them flying with FO who had just started their flying careers ?
NF
Nil Further - I will try to answer your questions fairly
Yes, the limit for a dash command in Flybe is 2500 hours
In the past (actually prior to 9/11) a few commands were given to pilots with less than that experience (I believe there were three of them, but stuck as I am on a rock I may have missed one or two)
No there was nothing to stop them flying with a new F/O provided he had at least 100 hrs on type.
However, none of that is relevant to your statement - "a lot of inexperience in Flybe". You could have said "two years ago there was some inexperience in flybe", with that I would have had no argument. Or alternatively you could have said that "in common with almost every scheduled carrier in the UK, including easyjet, flybe have crews less experienced than those in Virgin/BA" - that I also could not argue with. But your original statement could easily have been taken by anyone less informed to mean that Flybe were exceptional in this area, and I don't think that is the case.
All that aside, that was then and this is now. Since last years pay settlement there has been a lot lower turn over in pilots at Flybe ( I am not saying that things couldn't change in the future, mind) and there have only been a couple of promotions on the dash in the last 12 months, plus jet pilots coming onto the aircraft ex 146 and CRJ. You won't find experience levels anyway near as low as those that existed in the past on the dash 8 200/300 on the flight deck of the 400s.
Also of course all of that had no bearing on this incident, as I have said. The captain of the aircraft was highly experienced, although not familiar with the peculiarities of runway 15 at BHX - and the briefing pack he received from the NATS briefing system at EDI made no mention in notams of "slippery when wet", nor does the AERAD airfield booklet.
I will however apologise for my use of the word "alleged", re-reading your post I notice that that part was actually referring to times gone by, unlike the rest.
Yes, the limit for a dash command in Flybe is 2500 hours
In the past (actually prior to 9/11) a few commands were given to pilots with less than that experience (I believe there were three of them, but stuck as I am on a rock I may have missed one or two)
No there was nothing to stop them flying with a new F/O provided he had at least 100 hrs on type.
However, none of that is relevant to your statement - "a lot of inexperience in Flybe". You could have said "two years ago there was some inexperience in flybe", with that I would have had no argument. Or alternatively you could have said that "in common with almost every scheduled carrier in the UK, including easyjet, flybe have crews less experienced than those in Virgin/BA" - that I also could not argue with. But your original statement could easily have been taken by anyone less informed to mean that Flybe were exceptional in this area, and I don't think that is the case.
All that aside, that was then and this is now. Since last years pay settlement there has been a lot lower turn over in pilots at Flybe ( I am not saying that things couldn't change in the future, mind) and there have only been a couple of promotions on the dash in the last 12 months, plus jet pilots coming onto the aircraft ex 146 and CRJ. You won't find experience levels anyway near as low as those that existed in the past on the dash 8 200/300 on the flight deck of the 400s.
Also of course all of that had no bearing on this incident, as I have said. The captain of the aircraft was highly experienced, although not familiar with the peculiarities of runway 15 at BHX - and the briefing pack he received from the NATS briefing system at EDI made no mention in notams of "slippery when wet", nor does the AERAD airfield booklet.
I will however apologise for my use of the word "alleged", re-reading your post I notice that that part was actually referring to times gone by, unlike the rest.
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Having flown with the alledged captain many years ago I can only say he/she was very thorough, careful and professional in their duties as a commander.
Not being BHX based as pointed out on here, the captain had little 'local knowledge'. But there for the grace of god go we........
I'm definately slowing down to a snails pace now at the slippy end as opposed to a fast walk. Apparently from a positioning crew member it was only approx 10kts taxi speed when it went off.
Not being BHX based as pointed out on here, the captain had little 'local knowledge'. But there for the grace of god go we........
I'm definately slowing down to a snails pace now at the slippy end as opposed to a fast walk. Apparently from a positioning crew member it was only approx 10kts taxi speed when it went off.
Excrab
Thanks for your honest reply , not a lot of it on this site . Let me make it quite clear that i did not set out to imply anything negative about flybe or the individual crew concerned . I greatly enjoyed my time at flybe and learnt a great deal from a number of very talented and very nice people .These type of things can and will happen to any one of us at any time.
My turn will come .
My comments about inexperience in flybe was in-appropriate as i can only speak about the situation as existed approx 2 years ago.
I have to say that if we are worrying about " what less well informed people will think" then we better get this site closed down pronto!
Nice to see someone other than Raw Data flying the Flybe flag.
Regards
NF
ps. I know that approx 25% of Flybe pilots went to EZY about a year ago ...... i wasnt one of them ! keep guessing.
Thanks for your honest reply , not a lot of it on this site . Let me make it quite clear that i did not set out to imply anything negative about flybe or the individual crew concerned . I greatly enjoyed my time at flybe and learnt a great deal from a number of very talented and very nice people .These type of things can and will happen to any one of us at any time.
My turn will come .
My comments about inexperience in flybe was in-appropriate as i can only speak about the situation as existed approx 2 years ago.
I have to say that if we are worrying about " what less well informed people will think" then we better get this site closed down pronto!
Nice to see someone other than Raw Data flying the Flybe flag.
Regards
NF
ps. I know that approx 25% of Flybe pilots went to EZY about a year ago ...... i wasnt one of them ! keep guessing.
