flags of convenience
Alba Gu Brath
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The situation is likely to get worse with the introduction of EU FTL's. As it stands at the moment, the limitations on FTL under the EU proposal are far less restrictive than the UK CAP371 limits, however there is a caveat at the top of the paper which allows member states to impose their own limits above & beyond the EU ones. What will happen, the CAA will overlay EU FTL's with CAP371 and the status quo remains in the UK. However, if you are registered in (for example) Ireland, the limits you are operating to, even with EU FTL, are far less restrictive than UK limits. So, what is to stop any other airline doing the same as FR and basing themselves in a country with more business friendly FTLs and operating out of any EU / EEA country that you want to.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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BEagle
Sorry, I didn't catch your message. How they damaged your property? Crashed airplane into your house or spreaded jet fuel over your golf course or what? Sounds strange to me as long as you talking as a private person...
Sorry, I didn't catch your message. How they damaged your property? Crashed airplane into your house or spreaded jet fuel over your golf course or what? Sounds strange to me as long as you talking as a private person...
ZbV
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Flags of convenience
Yes. MyTravel has had B757's flying out of Helsinki, Finland as well as other UK carriers
I find it disgusting that these "Flags of convenience" aircraft and operators are allowed to operate out of Finland and taking jobs away from local pilots.
Furthermore our standards up in the north are much higher than UK CAA can maintain and that just rips my heart out.
And the worst thing is that all of this does nothing to contribute to our economy.
I am amazed that EU has, for quite some time, allowed UK registered orange coloured jets to operate around continental Europe flying between countries other than UK.
JJ
I find it disgusting that these "Flags of convenience" aircraft and operators are allowed to operate out of Finland and taking jobs away from local pilots.
Furthermore our standards up in the north are much higher than UK CAA can maintain and that just rips my heart out.
And the worst thing is that all of this does nothing to contribute to our economy.
I am amazed that EU has, for quite some time, allowed UK registered orange coloured jets to operate around continental Europe flying between countries other than UK.
JJ
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mmmm, good reading algy but of course that is what it would say, but the reality is that if we have the work here in the uk then why do we have so many unemployed new pilots ?
we are churning out frozen atpl/ir newbies from the schools who can't get jobs yet we have airports full of N / TF registered a/c that seem to 'appear' every summer ?
we are churning out frozen atpl/ir newbies from the schools who can't get jobs yet we have airports full of N / TF registered a/c that seem to 'appear' every summer ?
"The INTRODUCER"
Purely my personal opinion, but I have to say it's hard to disagree with JJFlyer...or the CAA for that matter. Liberalisation has generated very substantial numbers of pilots' jobs in Europe, and elsewhere for that matter.
Do you seriously imagine that the sort of growth that has occurred in European air transport over the last decade would have happened without liberalisation?
The notion that any one country is stealing another country's pilot workforce's jobs is just loony tunes.
Now, what will happen with EU/US, if and when that ever comes about is a whole other story. My guess is that labour liberalisation will be the last element of the whole picture to be fixed, and that history suggests pilots will be the last of the last!
Do you seriously imagine that the sort of growth that has occurred in European air transport over the last decade would have happened without liberalisation?
The notion that any one country is stealing another country's pilot workforce's jobs is just loony tunes.
Now, what will happen with EU/US, if and when that ever comes about is a whole other story. My guess is that labour liberalisation will be the last element of the whole picture to be fixed, and that history suggests pilots will be the last of the last!
ZbV
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EU and Competition
Algy... Nice to see that you noted that "Slight" sarcasm in my last post.
I agree that free competition has actually created more jobs in Europe than it has taken. UK for one has more pilot jobs available than all the Nordic countries combined.
Having never flown professionally for a Finnish carrier and having done my whole career so far as an expat, I am a firm believer in free movement of labour and free competition between companies.
One can't have it both ways. Either a country (UK for example) is a part of EU and takes the benefits, but risks othesr moving into their market or is not part of EU. In the latter model one would not be seeing Easyjet or other UK carriers operating in continental Europe or say Astraeus operating for an Icelandic low fares carrier.
JJ
I agree that free competition has actually created more jobs in Europe than it has taken. UK for one has more pilot jobs available than all the Nordic countries combined.
Having never flown professionally for a Finnish carrier and having done my whole career so far as an expat, I am a firm believer in free movement of labour and free competition between companies.
One can't have it both ways. Either a country (UK for example) is a part of EU and takes the benefits, but risks othesr moving into their market or is not part of EU. In the latter model one would not be seeing Easyjet or other UK carriers operating in continental Europe or say Astraeus operating for an Icelandic low fares carrier.
JJ
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Bit of a mute point really,
AAE (EUK) have a UK AOC. 747s going on this as we speak. 767s already on it therefore they abide by all the rules you do! And they come fully under the guidance of the UK CAA. End of story.
Prior to this 5th freedom clause 10 was excercised, as this avenue looks to be closing up this made a UK AOC a must. ergo..
AAI is fully JAR compliant and meets the requirements laid out in that legislation the same as most of the rest of Europe!
Excel will do most of crewing / planning and as such to UK standards!
Vast majority of EUK crew will be UK people on UK contracts paying UK tax, simple as that!
AAE have been activley trying to employ as many UK based people as possible including ex European crews. (now thats a good thing)
The deal is not the best in the world but it is a job and a fairly secure one in these uncertain times.
So before you go making a fuss I suggest you get your facts straight.
Well said canadair, bit antagonistic as usual though!! See you soon!
AAE (EUK) have a UK AOC. 747s going on this as we speak. 767s already on it therefore they abide by all the rules you do! And they come fully under the guidance of the UK CAA. End of story.
Prior to this 5th freedom clause 10 was excercised, as this avenue looks to be closing up this made a UK AOC a must. ergo..
AAI is fully JAR compliant and meets the requirements laid out in that legislation the same as most of the rest of Europe!
Excel will do most of crewing / planning and as such to UK standards!
Vast majority of EUK crew will be UK people on UK contracts paying UK tax, simple as that!
AAE have been activley trying to employ as many UK based people as possible including ex European crews. (now thats a good thing)
The deal is not the best in the world but it is a job and a fairly secure one in these uncertain times.
So before you go making a fuss I suggest you get your facts straight.
Well said canadair, bit antagonistic as usual though!! See you soon!
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If you can't beat them..........I don't hear anyone moaning in the same vein about Ryanair operating EI- registered a/c out of European Hubs.
Well said FougaM, Islandsflug totally professional with some great Tech Crews from a state airline that went bump. Can you blame them for finding re-employment?
Well said FougaM, Islandsflug totally professional with some great Tech Crews from a state airline that went bump. Can you blame them for finding re-employment?
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Isn't Astraeus doing in Iceland, exactly the same thing the Icelandics are doing in the UK?
http://www.icelandexpress.com/displayer.asp?cat_id=119
Actually on the gauge set by previous posts, it's 'worse', as Excel's pilots are mainly British!
http://www.icelandexpress.com/displayer.asp?cat_id=119
Actually on the gauge set by previous posts, it's 'worse', as Excel's pilots are mainly British!
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In the past few weeks FLS has gone to the wall at STN/MAN
with 400+ uk jobs gone.EAAC has lost 500+ and the Britannia
engineering base is up for sale,with the work likely to go overseas.
The CAA is set to significantly downsize as a large proportion of there work goes into europe.What next an EU registration?
with 400+ uk jobs gone.EAAC has lost 500+ and the Britannia
engineering base is up for sale,with the work likely to go overseas.
The CAA is set to significantly downsize as a large proportion of there work goes into europe.What next an EU registration?
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Ha!
British airlines will never be able to compete with foreign aircarriers for two very simple reasons.
1. British management.
Nopay for the employees because they (management) are stealing it all for themselves.
Latest example, EAAC.
-or-
2. British employees.
Altho some are rather well paid, they go on strike for flimsy reasons, and are absent from duty rather a lot.
Latest example, BA.
IF these two problems could be solved on a permanent basis, British aviation would have a more level playing field, and be much more successful.
Don't hold your breath...it ain't likely to happen anytime soon.
British airlines will never be able to compete with foreign aircarriers for two very simple reasons.
1. British management.
Nopay for the employees because they (management) are stealing it all for themselves.
Latest example, EAAC.
-or-
2. British employees.
Altho some are rather well paid, they go on strike for flimsy reasons, and are absent from duty rather a lot.
Latest example, BA.
IF these two problems could be solved on a permanent basis, British aviation would have a more level playing field, and be much more successful.
Don't hold your breath...it ain't likely to happen anytime soon.
Well CargoOne, one of their scruffy old heaps came roaring down the taxiway at such a speed that the marshaller, concerned for safety, signalled it to stop. When permitted to continue, the petulant idiot driving it whacked open the throttles so much that he blew over one of the aeroplanes which I 'own' (as 50% shareholder in the company) parked over 100 yards away with brakes on and controls secured. It was turned upside down and very badly damaged; as this entirely avoidable incident was caused by the hand of a third party, our claim was against the east European bunch who operated the aeroplane. But they refused to own up to their actions and hid behind a wall of holding comapnies and a dubious insurer who refused to behave in a reasonable manner with our own insurance company.
However, I think that these cheap and nasty bottom of the barrel cowboys are now out of business. And a good thing too!!
However, I think that these cheap and nasty bottom of the barrel cowboys are now out of business. And a good thing too!!
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411A
On point two - perhaps a little unfair.
I seem to spend considerably more time dealing with various French, Spanish, Italian, Greek etc etc ATC strikes and ground handling strikes than I do with UK industrial action.
No, the Brits may not be perfect but by and large I'd suggest there are worse offenders out there than us!
(That said - I'd struggle to argue too much with point one!!!)
On point two - perhaps a little unfair.
I seem to spend considerably more time dealing with various French, Spanish, Italian, Greek etc etc ATC strikes and ground handling strikes than I do with UK industrial action.
No, the Brits may not be perfect but by and large I'd suggest there are worse offenders out there than us!
(That said - I'd struggle to argue too much with point one!!!)
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opsgeezer,
You may well be right, considering some of the news from the 'mainland' lately.
Concerning BA, I was refering to the recent industrial action by ground staff at LHR, and their inability to prove they actually showed up on time...or at all.
If you take a look at British aviation over the last 40 years or so, many smaller companies have come and gone inspite of rather hard working pilots and ground engineering folks.
Management frittering away opportunities or, in some cases, outright theft (or to be more slightly politically correct, diversion of assets) has led to non-payment of landing/handling/fuel/overflight/outsourced maintenance/spares (the list goes on and on) charges, with the resultant failure of the company, leaving aforementioned hard working employees high and dry.
Likewise, this side of the pond, in case you think I am being overly unfair about British aviation in general.
Some new 'investors' in airline companies, seeing the opportunistic avenues available for creative financing, have driven some companies straight to the wall, in rather short order.
There outta be a law!
You may well be right, considering some of the news from the 'mainland' lately.
Concerning BA, I was refering to the recent industrial action by ground staff at LHR, and their inability to prove they actually showed up on time...or at all.
If you take a look at British aviation over the last 40 years or so, many smaller companies have come and gone inspite of rather hard working pilots and ground engineering folks.
Management frittering away opportunities or, in some cases, outright theft (or to be more slightly politically correct, diversion of assets) has led to non-payment of landing/handling/fuel/overflight/outsourced maintenance/spares (the list goes on and on) charges, with the resultant failure of the company, leaving aforementioned hard working employees high and dry.
Likewise, this side of the pond, in case you think I am being overly unfair about British aviation in general.
Some new 'investors' in airline companies, seeing the opportunistic avenues available for creative financing, have driven some companies straight to the wall, in rather short order.
There outta be a law!
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Well thank god other management in airlines don't divert mass funds into certain bottom-of-the-points-table Formula One racing teams without thinking ahead first.
Just unfortunate they didnt foresee losing the TCD contract to AAE, and their crew along with it.
Just hope all the hardworking staff who have lost their jobs don't suffer for their managements' inconsiderate and amateur actions and decisions.
Just unfortunate they didnt foresee losing the TCD contract to AAE, and their crew along with it.
Just hope all the hardworking staff who have lost their jobs don't suffer for their managements' inconsiderate and amateur actions and decisions.
ZbV
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GK430. You don't hear Irish moaning about "Foreigners taking our jobs" or wanting to protect the market, but at the same time be able to work anywhere...Many English pilots seem to want this.
I have nothing against G-reg aircraft flying between countries in EU, but one just cant have one way street anymore.
JJ
I have nothing against G-reg aircraft flying between countries in EU, but one just cant have one way street anymore.
JJ
Alba Gu Brath
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Ah 411A. Just as I was about to rant forth about the Frank Lorenzo's of the world, you step in and graciously admit that US management ethics leave a lot to be desired as well. 