British Airways Citiexpress
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British Airways Citiexpress
What happened to this thread, ref. the ballot on industrial action, Danny?
I was actually rather enjoying reading one or two individuals having their pedigree described in public!
I was actually rather enjoying reading one or two individuals having their pedigree described in public!
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Pprune censorship: the thread re: BACX consultative ballot
Pprune,
I am insensed that you have removed the thread about BACX's consultative ballot on industrial action whithout setting out reasons why.
If you are going to censor a legitimate debate at the insistence of BACX management, at least have the balls to say so on this forum.
Show some impartiality and good judgment, please.
I am insensed that you have removed the thread about BACX's consultative ballot on industrial action whithout setting out reasons why.
If you are going to censor a legitimate debate at the insistence of BACX management, at least have the balls to say so on this forum.
Show some impartiality and good judgment, please.
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No one from PPRuNe censored anything. If you are unable to figure out that the person who originates a thread can also delete it at their whim then tough on you.
Now, in order to show you what censorship can really mean, I'm going to close this thread but feel free to start a new one about the BACX ballot but leave out the false accusations
Now, in order to show you what censorship can really mean, I'm going to close this thread but feel free to start a new one about the BACX ballot but leave out the false accusations
Last edited by Danny; 7th Feb 2004 at 18:44.
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So, pray tell us Little Prince (If I remember rightly you started this thread?). Did you pull this thread or was it a skullduggerous hacker using your ID????
Now can we get on where we left off as this issue gathers momentum.......................................
Now can we get on where we left off as this issue gathers momentum.......................................
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To continue then............and as I recall about 3500 hits on the thread have been following the story to date. Yesterday, unequivocal support for a 'Yes' vote in the consultative ballot was given by BALAP General Secretary Jim McAuslan.The world is quite aware at the quality of the flight ops managers we have to suffer; one has gone and the position of the other, as the supposed leader of the pilot workforce, must be questioned. It seems that all of them have been through the 'new labour' teflon coating process so perhaps this disaster will slide off as all the others have done.
Report in today's Times Business section; not absolutely factually correct, I would suggest, but there is no such thing as bad publicity.
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Having read all the postings in the major thread that has since disappeared, plus those that have resurfaced, I must say that I am amazed that anyone is even contemplating any industrial action!
This will play straight into the hands of BA who cannot continue to tolerate the level of existing losses, and will precipitate either the instant closure of the airline or, more likely, a fire-sale to someone that would probably pick up some of the pieces under a totally new brand. Under these circumstances T &C's will not be anything like as good as they are now.
Several outsiders are circling the business and waiting for an opportunity to pounce.
This will play straight into the hands of BA who cannot continue to tolerate the level of existing losses, and will precipitate either the instant closure of the airline or, more likely, a fire-sale to someone that would probably pick up some of the pieces under a totally new brand. Under these circumstances T &C's will not be anything like as good as they are now.
Several outsiders are circling the business and waiting for an opportunity to pounce.
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Jordan, Nice first post for you! You could almost be management................(guys be gentle on him!)
A few of questions for you
1. Where is your evidence that the company is loosing money?
2. Why is it that whenever we sell (or should I say give away) bits of the business, the "buyers" always end up doing brilliantly on what we have discarded?
3. Who are these buyers circling the business offering inferior Ts and Cs (ever heard of TUPE???) and what could possibly be worse than working for our totaly incompetent discredited and useless bunch of jokers who haven't the commercial acumen to run a corner shop (one of whom goes scurrying off and abandons his mates the moment it looks as if he might have to confront the consequences of three years of his mismangement)?
A few of questions for you
1. Where is your evidence that the company is loosing money?
2. Why is it that whenever we sell (or should I say give away) bits of the business, the "buyers" always end up doing brilliantly on what we have discarded?
3. Who are these buyers circling the business offering inferior Ts and Cs (ever heard of TUPE???) and what could possibly be worse than working for our totaly incompetent discredited and useless bunch of jokers who haven't the commercial acumen to run a corner shop (one of whom goes scurrying off and abandons his mates the moment it looks as if he might have to confront the consequences of three years of his mismangement)?
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Let's be very careful here. We don't want to offend anyone unnecessarily, so no more pointing out the incompetence of our management.
Let's have no more references to the allegedly aggressive bullying of pilots outside the scheduling agreement, and certainly no more conjecture about how it can be cheaper to spend 27 million pounds subsidising the competition than to keep our own pilots on the payroll. Certainly, we don't want anyone else inferring that that there is something a bit dodgy about closing a base because all its routes lose money, and then watching another start up airline go into profit on week two of operation on the same routes. Heavens no.
Let's not define any double standards which results in very senior training captains ending up in the RHS, and we mustn't quote management as trying to unilaterally terminate a pay protection package.
We mustn't speculate on sweetheart deals done for management pilots, even when one of them boasted about it to his co pilot; and certainly it would be wrong to wonder at the cost efficiency of paying for another management pilot to be given a TRE course even though he was returning to mainline the following month (and some would say collecting an additionally large increment in his next job because of the new qualification.
Let's not speculate on the quality of management decisions made by our current leaders, and certainly not any of their flying ability.
Let us instead give credit where credit is due. Let us acknowledge the wonderful atmosphere within BACX. Let us reaffirm our commitment to our leaders, and their effect on our morale, which has obviously never been higher. Let us applaud the change in profitability since they got their hands on the levers of power. Let us be glad for all those who, since the takeover, have been granted the opportunity to seek new employment as a result of FSASs 1 through 5, with such a brilliant redundancy package - its even statutory! We can see the results of our leaders' brilliance all around, surely there can be no better example of how to co-exist with BALPA, how to enhance the working lives and conditions of one's employees, how to hold one's head high as a paragon of the management class.
The only puzzling thing is..........how on earth could any BACX pilot want to do anything but ask for more of the same...how could they possibly be so silly as to support a BALPA CC who clearly do not have their interests at heart. Nay, surely it must be a mistake - we KNOW we are so lucky to be part of such a well led and managed operation, our hearts sing with joy at the prospect of more of their efforts. The ballot is bound to be a resounding failure, organised by one or two malcontents - it will not be supported, because we are all so happy and content in our jobs.
With TDLF leading us, nothing can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong............................
Let's have no more references to the allegedly aggressive bullying of pilots outside the scheduling agreement, and certainly no more conjecture about how it can be cheaper to spend 27 million pounds subsidising the competition than to keep our own pilots on the payroll. Certainly, we don't want anyone else inferring that that there is something a bit dodgy about closing a base because all its routes lose money, and then watching another start up airline go into profit on week two of operation on the same routes. Heavens no.
Let's not define any double standards which results in very senior training captains ending up in the RHS, and we mustn't quote management as trying to unilaterally terminate a pay protection package.
We mustn't speculate on sweetheart deals done for management pilots, even when one of them boasted about it to his co pilot; and certainly it would be wrong to wonder at the cost efficiency of paying for another management pilot to be given a TRE course even though he was returning to mainline the following month (and some would say collecting an additionally large increment in his next job because of the new qualification.
Let's not speculate on the quality of management decisions made by our current leaders, and certainly not any of their flying ability.
Let us instead give credit where credit is due. Let us acknowledge the wonderful atmosphere within BACX. Let us reaffirm our commitment to our leaders, and their effect on our morale, which has obviously never been higher. Let us applaud the change in profitability since they got their hands on the levers of power. Let us be glad for all those who, since the takeover, have been granted the opportunity to seek new employment as a result of FSASs 1 through 5, with such a brilliant redundancy package - its even statutory! We can see the results of our leaders' brilliance all around, surely there can be no better example of how to co-exist with BALPA, how to enhance the working lives and conditions of one's employees, how to hold one's head high as a paragon of the management class.
The only puzzling thing is..........how on earth could any BACX pilot want to do anything but ask for more of the same...how could they possibly be so silly as to support a BALPA CC who clearly do not have their interests at heart. Nay, surely it must be a mistake - we KNOW we are so lucky to be part of such a well led and managed operation, our hearts sing with joy at the prospect of more of their efforts. The ballot is bound to be a resounding failure, organised by one or two malcontents - it will not be supported, because we are all so happy and content in our jobs.
With TDLF leading us, nothing can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong............................
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Just back from a weekend away, and now I'm supposed to have deleted my own thread!!!!!!!
However, looks like we're back now. I hope we can all see from the report in the paper that even the threat of this ballot is really having an effect. Think what a 'YES' vote will achieve, all it really does is emphasise the possibility of industrial action. That emphasis is what will intimidate the management as has been proved again and again by our mainline cousins.
It would be a huge bonus if our current lot of management have to take the responsibility for their incompetence, but don't hold your breath, as it reflects on those above and so on and so forth. However, a man can but hope.
VOTE YES, SUPPORT THE CC, SUPPORT US ALL, VOTE YES FOR A BETTER FUTURE!
However, looks like we're back now. I hope we can all see from the report in the paper that even the threat of this ballot is really having an effect. Think what a 'YES' vote will achieve, all it really does is emphasise the possibility of industrial action. That emphasis is what will intimidate the management as has been proved again and again by our mainline cousins.
It would be a huge bonus if our current lot of management have to take the responsibility for their incompetence, but don't hold your breath, as it reflects on those above and so on and so forth. However, a man can but hope.
VOTE YES, SUPPORT THE CC, SUPPORT US ALL, VOTE YES FOR A BETTER FUTURE!
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Ok, at the risk of repeating myself...
Little Prince, you didn't delete your post, so Danny, who did?
I'm prepared to apologise unequivocally to Pprune if they played no part in deleting the thread, but surely we should all be concerned if Pprune didn't and little Prince didn't?
Little Prince, you didn't delete your post, so Danny, who did?
I'm prepared to apologise unequivocally to Pprune if they played no part in deleting the thread, but surely we should all be concerned if Pprune didn't and little Prince didn't?
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Absolutely right 'Round Midnight.
Danny...............tell us what you know. If you didn't delete the the thread and L P didn't then one might conclude reasonably that someone is interfearing.
Now who could possibly want to see an end to this?
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the BACC web site fall over during their last rumble with management?
Danny...............tell us what you know. If you didn't delete the the thread and L P didn't then one might conclude reasonably that someone is interfearing.
Now who could possibly want to see an end to this?
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the BACC web site fall over during their last rumble with management?
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OK, at the risk of repeating myself, I didn't delete the thread and as far as I'm aware none of my moderators did either. That leaves the thread starter, which you claim to be 'Little Prince'. I don't know who that is and I can only assume that Little Price deleted the thread his or herself, either deliberately or accidentally. Now, a few of you appear unable to get it into your heads that unless this thread stays on topic, and I'll remind you what the topic is: British Airways Citiexpress, then I'll be closing it.
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Strike ballots, bullying management tactics, managers being witch-hunted, newspaper reports, and the mystery of who closed-down the original thread. Excellent reading, keep the rumours coming.
Sent my 'YES' ballot paper back yesterday, I'd love to see a landslide 'YES' result on the 20 Feb.
Sent my 'YES' ballot paper back yesterday, I'd love to see a landslide 'YES' result on the 20 Feb.
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OK guys
I am fully aware that one or two of you take issue with me as soon as I post.
However, I genuinely do feel you may be starting along a very dodgy course of action (no I am not management!)
I am in a reasonably good position to appreciate, and in many cases sympathise with, your situation. All I would say is this: The threat of industrial action should be taken EXTREMELY seriously by BOTH sides! It would be rather naive to think a vague threat reported in the press will make any difference! You must only vote yes if you are absolutely, and unequivocally prepared to walk out, knowing full well that your action MAY result in the company ceasing trading!
If you don't believe that is a possibility, you might like to give some very serious thought to your vote before dropping it in the post!
They MAY crumble before that time arrives, BUT it boils down to gambling! A game of poker if you like! Gambling with YOUR livelyhoods (THEY may personally have little to lose!)
Mention has been made of mainline pilots threatening industrial action to effectively achieve their aims. I can only say that the last time I recall a ballot for industrial action was over 7 years ago! (I may be wrong!) Everything else has been achieved by reasoned argument with management, such as benchmarking. We have had our disappointments too!
I accept I am an outsider, but from my point of view, it seems like the BACX CC frequently bark up the wrong tree! The petition regarding the ' Humiliation of BACX pilots', and the rejection of limited access to mainline, being only two cases in point.
Finally, please don't make the mistake of attacking 'mainline Nigels!' Remember that the BA CC, AND mainline pilots in general, support you aspiration for access to 'big' BA!
We ARE predisposed to support you, but don't forget, it could get very messy with BA CC pilots flying RJ100s! (Secondees have been told VERY forcibly by your reps, that BACX CC do NOT represent THEM! - A little too forcibly actually!)
If you vote yes, you would have my support, but I will feel very nervous of the outcome!
I am fully aware that one or two of you take issue with me as soon as I post.
However, I genuinely do feel you may be starting along a very dodgy course of action (no I am not management!)
I am in a reasonably good position to appreciate, and in many cases sympathise with, your situation. All I would say is this: The threat of industrial action should be taken EXTREMELY seriously by BOTH sides! It would be rather naive to think a vague threat reported in the press will make any difference! You must only vote yes if you are absolutely, and unequivocally prepared to walk out, knowing full well that your action MAY result in the company ceasing trading!
If you don't believe that is a possibility, you might like to give some very serious thought to your vote before dropping it in the post!
They MAY crumble before that time arrives, BUT it boils down to gambling! A game of poker if you like! Gambling with YOUR livelyhoods (THEY may personally have little to lose!)
Mention has been made of mainline pilots threatening industrial action to effectively achieve their aims. I can only say that the last time I recall a ballot for industrial action was over 7 years ago! (I may be wrong!) Everything else has been achieved by reasoned argument with management, such as benchmarking. We have had our disappointments too!
I accept I am an outsider, but from my point of view, it seems like the BACX CC frequently bark up the wrong tree! The petition regarding the ' Humiliation of BACX pilots', and the rejection of limited access to mainline, being only two cases in point.
Finally, please don't make the mistake of attacking 'mainline Nigels!' Remember that the BA CC, AND mainline pilots in general, support you aspiration for access to 'big' BA!
We ARE predisposed to support you, but don't forget, it could get very messy with BA CC pilots flying RJ100s! (Secondees have been told VERY forcibly by your reps, that BACX CC do NOT represent THEM! - A little too forcibly actually!)
If you vote yes, you would have my support, but I will feel very nervous of the outcome!
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Hang on Danny,
TinyTim has a point.
Althouigh I don't work for them any more thankfully;
At one time all the chat re BACX was done via Pprune on either the BRAL thread on this website, when it existed, at the time moderated by 'bral' I think, or the Brymon link when it existed.
When BACX was formed of course those threads were amalgamated into the BACX thread. But then the Pprune thread seemed to get infiltrated by management types. I say seemed because their was massive distrust between management and pilots, so maybe it was paranoia. Anyway, BALPA started their own website that dealt with BALPA matters, but also included a rumours and news thread, moderated by various members of the Company Council.
Because we (at least I) felt free to express opinions once more, even under my own name rather than a user name, it soon became an exchange for frank veiwpoints once again. Just about about the point of a previous industrial relation downpoint, BALPA's website crashed, losing all postings previously made. When it was fixed, it was minus all the interesting stuff, like when a fat manager seconded from BA left an engine running on a rear engined aircraft and went to the HOTAC, only to be recalled to shut it down (memory fails, but it was something like that). I only mention this because absurdly, any minor infringment of procedure or SOP became a trial without jury or even a witch hunt and the outcome of the investigation was liable to be plastered all over the monthly newsletter in a writing style that inferred incompetence of those involved. One bloke was ASR'ed for crossing a stop line on a taxiway, under ATC instruction, by a member of the managment team who at the time was on a turnround on a different aircraft type. Think popular PPL flight guide for the name of the manager, there are a few different flight guides to guess at.
If I remember correctly, BALPA reckoned their website had been hacked, so they improved security and re-instated it, minus all the interesting stuff as I wrote previously. Now all this might be speculation, rumour, slander, whatever. But about the time BALPA's website took a hit, BACX were closing various bases. At the now closed outstation I was based at, we had one BALPA member who was also an ambitious trainer. All the confidential stuff from BALPA, all the contents of our BALPA noticeboard, all the minutes of our BALPA meetings got faxed off to the fleet manager; this sentence is not guesswork, I was a fellow BALPA member and also a trainer and was privy to some of the management goings on.
My recollection of those times is fading, current BACX pilots correct me if I'm wrong at any point in this posting. but all this speculation about how the original BACX thread disappeared may be a symptom of of the distrustful relationship between pilots and managment at BACX, but maybe this website was nobbled, and you shouldn't be dismissive of the possibility.
TinyTim has a point.
Althouigh I don't work for them any more thankfully;
At one time all the chat re BACX was done via Pprune on either the BRAL thread on this website, when it existed, at the time moderated by 'bral' I think, or the Brymon link when it existed.
When BACX was formed of course those threads were amalgamated into the BACX thread. But then the Pprune thread seemed to get infiltrated by management types. I say seemed because their was massive distrust between management and pilots, so maybe it was paranoia. Anyway, BALPA started their own website that dealt with BALPA matters, but also included a rumours and news thread, moderated by various members of the Company Council.
Because we (at least I) felt free to express opinions once more, even under my own name rather than a user name, it soon became an exchange for frank veiwpoints once again. Just about about the point of a previous industrial relation downpoint, BALPA's website crashed, losing all postings previously made. When it was fixed, it was minus all the interesting stuff, like when a fat manager seconded from BA left an engine running on a rear engined aircraft and went to the HOTAC, only to be recalled to shut it down (memory fails, but it was something like that). I only mention this because absurdly, any minor infringment of procedure or SOP became a trial without jury or even a witch hunt and the outcome of the investigation was liable to be plastered all over the monthly newsletter in a writing style that inferred incompetence of those involved. One bloke was ASR'ed for crossing a stop line on a taxiway, under ATC instruction, by a member of the managment team who at the time was on a turnround on a different aircraft type. Think popular PPL flight guide for the name of the manager, there are a few different flight guides to guess at.
If I remember correctly, BALPA reckoned their website had been hacked, so they improved security and re-instated it, minus all the interesting stuff as I wrote previously. Now all this might be speculation, rumour, slander, whatever. But about the time BALPA's website took a hit, BACX were closing various bases. At the now closed outstation I was based at, we had one BALPA member who was also an ambitious trainer. All the confidential stuff from BALPA, all the contents of our BALPA noticeboard, all the minutes of our BALPA meetings got faxed off to the fleet manager; this sentence is not guesswork, I was a fellow BALPA member and also a trainer and was privy to some of the management goings on.
My recollection of those times is fading, current BACX pilots correct me if I'm wrong at any point in this posting. but all this speculation about how the original BACX thread disappeared may be a symptom of of the distrustful relationship between pilots and managment at BACX, but maybe this website was nobbled, and you shouldn't be dismissive of the possibility.
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I'll remind you what the topic is: British Airways Citiexpress
Upon further investigation, it appears that a moderator moved the original post into our private admin forum for review because some of the original posts contained comments that were possibly borderline slander or libelous. After some consultation (I didn't see it as I've just got back from a sim session) the thread was moved back to the R & N forum. The moderator is sure he checked that it was back in the forum but now it appears to have disappeared. What has possibly happened is that it has been deleted accidentally. This can happen when threads are moved around. So, it would appear that the thread has probably been deleted accidentally. No conspiracy. Just an accident. If some posters tried to think about the consequences of what they post instead of just mouthing off then perhaps we wouldn't need to move threads in the first place, thus reducing the risk that interesting threads like the original BACX get accidentally lost in the process.
Now, as the quote at the top of this post states, keep it on topic or else I will close it. If you want to debate the conspiracy between PPRuNe and BA management or BALPA then start another thread in Jet Blast and it can be dicussed there. I'm not going to waste any more of my time repeating that you should stick to the thread topic if you want it to stay on here.