Skipper grounded ??
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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It just serves to emphasise that, whatever the Western response, the greatest victims of this terrorist campaign will always be the peace-loving majority of the Islamic world.
Will
Will
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MaxAlt.
The original post was that he was grounded "..because he was born in Bagdad." I think by automatically associating his birthplace with "political views" you've made Will's point. In any case of judgement against a pilot I think we should stick to the facts.
First: We don't know if anyone was grounded or what the justification may have been. If it was purely because he was born in Bagdad, that would be wrong.
Second: Grounding for "political views" isn't necessarily right either. Maybe he just disagrees with US policy toward Iraq... nothing wrong with that. A lot of non-Bagdad people are in that camp.
Unless he was advocating something illegal or violent or there was reasonable suspicion/evidence of the same, grounding would seem rather heavy-handed.
Just another opinion....
The original post was that he was grounded "..because he was born in Bagdad." I think by automatically associating his birthplace with "political views" you've made Will's point. In any case of judgement against a pilot I think we should stick to the facts.
First: We don't know if anyone was grounded or what the justification may have been. If it was purely because he was born in Bagdad, that would be wrong.
Second: Grounding for "political views" isn't necessarily right either. Maybe he just disagrees with US policy toward Iraq... nothing wrong with that. A lot of non-Bagdad people are in that camp.
Unless he was advocating something illegal or violent or there was reasonable suspicion/evidence of the same, grounding would seem rather heavy-handed.
Just another opinion....
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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Like most people on PPRuNe, I have travelled very widely. Possibly more than most, I have made a point when abroad of going out and meeting people and my experience is that the vast, vast majority of people, from the thirdest of worlds to the richest of environments have pretty much the same priorities in their lives:
1) The health, education and betterment of their children.
2) Their own comfort, health and economic well-being.
3) The comfort and health of their parents.
Very few of them feel passionately about ideology, whether political or religious, and those that do, when you analyse their motives, are really in pursuit of the above list.
This observation certainly holds true in those of the world's trouble spots where I have spent a reasonable amount of time...Israel, the West Bank, Armenia, Georgia and Northern Ireland.
So, given that, in my experience, the vast majority of people, even in flash points are peace loving, apolitical and family-centric, I can only assume that the people of Bagdad (where I have only been briefly) are the same. The only thing I know of this pilot, if he does exist, is that he is native of Bagdad. I therefore assume, for want of any other information, that he is an ordinary guy.
Where we in the UK and USA are being poisoned by our politicians and media is that the only information we are getting about Muslims is that they are dangerous, full of hatred and not to be trusted. Those of us with any capacity for free-thought know from our own experience that this is no more true of Muslims in general than were Goebels lies about the Jewish people.
We should use our own brains on this one and not be led by manipulative power-brokers.
Will
1) The health, education and betterment of their children.
2) Their own comfort, health and economic well-being.
3) The comfort and health of their parents.
Very few of them feel passionately about ideology, whether political or religious, and those that do, when you analyse their motives, are really in pursuit of the above list.
This observation certainly holds true in those of the world's trouble spots where I have spent a reasonable amount of time...Israel, the West Bank, Armenia, Georgia and Northern Ireland.
So, given that, in my experience, the vast majority of people, even in flash points are peace loving, apolitical and family-centric, I can only assume that the people of Bagdad (where I have only been briefly) are the same. The only thing I know of this pilot, if he does exist, is that he is native of Bagdad. I therefore assume, for want of any other information, that he is an ordinary guy.
Where we in the UK and USA are being poisoned by our politicians and media is that the only information we are getting about Muslims is that they are dangerous, full of hatred and not to be trusted. Those of us with any capacity for free-thought know from our own experience that this is no more true of Muslims in general than were Goebels lies about the Jewish people.
We should use our own brains on this one and not be led by manipulative power-brokers.
Will
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Hang on a second. Who's jumping to conclusions? The first post said the guy was born in Baghdad...where did it say he was Muslim??? That was a conclusion jumped to by the next poster, WCollins. There is a large Iraqi Christian minority, do you know it?
In my post I simply asked how anyone knows his politics...I did not refer to RELIGION, much less Islam.
Read it and weep.
That said, I believe the majority of the Islamic world are 'peace loving' only because the 'positive vote' is heavily influenced by the gentler form of Islam practiced in SE Asia.
Plainly, how 'peace loving' Muslims actually are depends on which part of the world you're talking about.
Lets not be hypocritical here.
In my post I simply asked how anyone knows his politics...I did not refer to RELIGION, much less Islam.
Read it and weep.
That said, I believe the majority of the Islamic world are 'peace loving' only because the 'positive vote' is heavily influenced by the gentler form of Islam practiced in SE Asia.
Plainly, how 'peace loving' Muslims actually are depends on which part of the world you're talking about.
Lets not be hypocritical here.
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fish/W Collins,
Peace loving you say?
Hmmm, I wonder.
When the F/O on my flight (just a few years ago) was watching ElAl on approach to FRA, and his spoken thoughts were..."hope they CRASH," I wonder, even tempered...NOT.
Some have really NO idea....head up their behind, so far in the sand, they might actually find China.
Peace loving you say?
Hmmm, I wonder.
When the F/O on my flight (just a few years ago) was watching ElAl on approach to FRA, and his spoken thoughts were..."hope they CRASH," I wonder, even tempered...NOT.
Some have really NO idea....head up their behind, so far in the sand, they might actually find China.
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411A
...peace-loving "majority"...
this F/O you refer to, is in a "minority".
That mentality regardless of their race, religion etc. is unacceptable. There are many out there like that of all persuasions, yet there are plenty more who are completely opposite to that.
The bad press is more likely to make headlines than any good ones, and hence is the bad ones that stick out which people remember.
...peace-loving "majority"...
this F/O you refer to, is in a "minority".
That mentality regardless of their race, religion etc. is unacceptable. There are many out there like that of all persuasions, yet there are plenty more who are completely opposite to that.
The bad press is more likely to make headlines than any good ones, and hence is the bad ones that stick out which people remember.
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Just a possibility that, as a measure intended to ensure this pilot's personal safety, as the holder of an Iraqi passport he has been taken off flights to countries that may have a problem with it, nothing more than that.
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Could it possible that there is more to this story than anyone on this forum knows?
Certainly, at face value, the grounding seems very harsh.
But, I have very little doubt that some security agency/police has established some suspicious link or has a genuine concern.
I wouldn’t get righteous until you know the whole story (if indeed there was one!).
Griffinblack
Certainly, at face value, the grounding seems very harsh.
But, I have very little doubt that some security agency/police has established some suspicious link or has a genuine concern.
I wouldn’t get righteous until you know the whole story (if indeed there was one!).
Griffinblack
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Sorry, but unless any of you have lived it, don't discuss life in an Islamic society or slander the people that live here, the majority of whom do very peacefully.”
Having said that, I have been to other “Islamic countries” such as Bahrain, Egypt and UAE, and found the locals completely different ie friendly and tolerant.
Has anyone yet seen a source for this allegation yet? Or is this a thread about a story that didn't actually happen?
Cos I've tried my damndest with the Google machine and can find nothing about it.
Cos I've tried my damndest with the Google machine and can find nothing about it.
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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What depresses me is that, having spent a lifetime travelling the world and talking to people, "the most intolerant, hypocritical and ignorant people " I have come across were a bunch of Surrey businessmen discussing homeland security at the House of Commons with the Shadow Minister for Homeland Security.
The homeland that they wanted to secure was going to be one of imprisonment without trial, torture, racial segregation, anonymous informants, policing and criminal justice prejudicially taking into account people's apparent ethnic origin and forced repatriation of ethnic minorities. (Not all, only some, of these policies came from the mouth of Patrick Mercer himself.)
It reminded me so much of Sebastian Haffner's book "Defying Hitler" which is a "must read" for anyone who wants an answer to the question "how could it ever happen?"
Edit: Dumbledore, we crossed...you are right that this has got too Jet Blasty...that will be my final word. No I don't carry rage about these matters, only gloom and sadness!
Will
The homeland that they wanted to secure was going to be one of imprisonment without trial, torture, racial segregation, anonymous informants, policing and criminal justice prejudicially taking into account people's apparent ethnic origin and forced repatriation of ethnic minorities. (Not all, only some, of these policies came from the mouth of Patrick Mercer himself.)
It reminded me so much of Sebastian Haffner's book "Defying Hitler" which is a "must read" for anyone who wants an answer to the question "how could it ever happen?"
Edit: Dumbledore, we crossed...you are right that this has got too Jet Blasty...that will be my final word. No I don't carry rage about these matters, only gloom and sadness!
Will
