BA Restructuring Plans
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Mick Stability
Agreed. Still can't quite see how how the Manpower Equivalent (MPE) method of counting job losses actually adds up to any savings.
Beyond that, haven't BA withdrawn form a lot of activities that used to be done in-house? i.e contracted in catering, some terminal services etc... shouldn't that mean a need for even fewer staff than the figure calculated?
Agreed. Still can't quite see how how the Manpower Equivalent (MPE) method of counting job losses actually adds up to any savings.
Beyond that, haven't BA withdrawn form a lot of activities that used to be done in-house? i.e contracted in catering, some terminal services etc... shouldn't that mean a need for even fewer staff than the figure calculated?
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Top Bunk - I know more than you think. The money that is hosed down on Crew on draft, the waste of TAS crews. If Bidline is so efficent, why haven't other airlines adopted it then?
I know of Crew Hotels being split between Flight and Cabin Crew for crazy reasons, such as the Cabin Crew hotel had showers and not baths in their rooms. I used to travel on duty often, stay in the same hotels as Crew and yet a Capt's allowances were more than mine - how can that be justified? Why should he have greater allowances than anyone else?
HZ123 - I'm not anti-Crew, in fact many of my friends fly for BA and hence my insight which is obviously unwelcome by some. I think Hand Solo said you were a ramp worker or a trainer or something like that.....now there is a group of people who don't appreciate Crew! Is your name Charlie?
I know of Crew Hotels being split between Flight and Cabin Crew for crazy reasons, such as the Cabin Crew hotel had showers and not baths in their rooms. I used to travel on duty often, stay in the same hotels as Crew and yet a Capt's allowances were more than mine - how can that be justified? Why should he have greater allowances than anyone else?
HZ123 - I'm not anti-Crew, in fact many of my friends fly for BA and hence my insight which is obviously unwelcome by some. I think Hand Solo said you were a ramp worker or a trainer or something like that.....now there is a group of people who don't appreciate Crew! Is your name Charlie?
Controversial, moi?
I know of Crew Hotels being split between Flight and Cabin Crew for crazy reasons, such as the Cabin Crew hotel had showers and not baths in their rooms.
I used to travel on duty often, stay in the same hotels as Crew and yet a Capt's allowances were more than mine - how can that be justified? Why should he have greater allowances than anyone else?
Your postings appear to be driven by envy.
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Just one issue with Loaded's anaysis: that LH wouldn't exist without SH. VS seems to survive without in-house feed. Provided there are sufficient frequencies into the hub provided by whoever (i.e. low-cost or other) so that pax can make reasonable connections, LH would attract traffic. Might have to agree interline/codeshare agreemnts to avoid poaching by others but ownership not vital. Also, it would avoid pro-rate nonsense where SH sector is sold way below cost in order to attract pax onto LH. I agree such a restructuring is so daunting that it's unlikely to happen.
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I agree with all Roobarb says but another factor was the fixation with "new management" philosophy.
Bob Ayling was very close to New Labour and Tony Blair and the fixation with monitoring and league tables were common to both.
In response to long hospital waiting times the government didn't spend the money on doctors and nurses but tried to tackle the problem by establishing performance league table and monitoring waiting times.
Bob did exactly the same thing. Flights were delayed by loading shortages, but instead of recruiting 2 loaders on 20K p.a. he would recruit a junior manager on 40k, equip them with a clipboard and stopwatch, and send them forth.
We then knew that last weeks delays might have been 4% less than a week before but not a single extra bag would have been loaded.
This happened throughout the airline. Cabin Crew introduced whole new layers of non-flying management to monitor sickness, measure how many crew could be removed before the complaints from passengers got worse etc. but nothing was actually done to improve the product.
Waterworld was stuffed with people working hard measuring things, but not actually doing anything to improve the bottom line.
They know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
Bob Ayling was very close to New Labour and Tony Blair and the fixation with monitoring and league tables were common to both.
In response to long hospital waiting times the government didn't spend the money on doctors and nurses but tried to tackle the problem by establishing performance league table and monitoring waiting times.
Bob did exactly the same thing. Flights were delayed by loading shortages, but instead of recruiting 2 loaders on 20K p.a. he would recruit a junior manager on 40k, equip them with a clipboard and stopwatch, and send them forth.
We then knew that last weeks delays might have been 4% less than a week before but not a single extra bag would have been loaded.
This happened throughout the airline. Cabin Crew introduced whole new layers of non-flying management to monitor sickness, measure how many crew could be removed before the complaints from passengers got worse etc. but nothing was actually done to improve the product.
Waterworld was stuffed with people working hard measuring things, but not actually doing anything to improve the bottom line.
They know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
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Torquelink - Yes, Flight Crew allowances are now incorporated into pay and naturally pension. However, the difference in allowances still exists and you ahve not been able to justify why its higher for Flight Crew than Cabin Crew or Groundstaff - please justify? As I say, many of my friends are BA Flt Crew and they state quite openly that Bidline works for the benefit of Crew rather than BA - can you justify that as well?
It's not envy, that's a standard answer from Crew. It's being able to highlight areas where so much money is being frittered away due to out-dated working practices. If BA was to start again, Bidline would be out the window straight away - I assume you can argue against that as well? Longhaul crew have so much time off, a mate of mine flew 4 trips on 777 in two months!
P.S - In a previous job I stayed at Hotels all over the network and probably stayed more hotels than yourself.
It's not envy, that's a standard answer from Crew. It's being able to highlight areas where so much money is being frittered away due to out-dated working practices. If BA was to start again, Bidline would be out the window straight away - I assume you can argue against that as well? Longhaul crew have so much time off, a mate of mine flew 4 trips on 777 in two months!
P.S - In a previous job I stayed at Hotels all over the network and probably stayed more hotels than yourself.
Controversial, moi?
However, the difference in allowances still exists
Longhaul crew have so much time off, a mate of mine flew 4 trips on 777 in two months!
In a previous job I stayed at Hotels all over the network and probably stayed more hotels than yourself
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Dark star
BA is undoubtedly sinking under a weight of extreme and arcane IR paractices. The pilot community is already working close to its legal limit in some areas. As a group we (yes I am one) have moved a long way. We have many agreements about how we should operate but in reality pilots bend over backwards to keep the operation on the road on the day. I simply cannot be anymore flexible day to day.
Bidline may well be a costly rostering system. I have little info on comparisons. Can see TASS is a cost that may need addressing. Not sure about the Duty free week though. My understanding was that this was for the lack of bank holidays - don't most people get those?
Specifics aside, the pilot community could undoubtedly find something else to contribute but I think I speak for many colleagues when I point out that many other groups in BA are extraordinary in their operation. MT at the moment is simply absurd. The whole farce about needing a "chock man" recently....I for one will go further but FIRST it's time for those that would lead us to bite the bullet and take on those more militant groups. At the moment I am left with the impression that the most aggressive, miltant groups get away with murder. That needs to change!
Regards
Diesel
PS just seen your comments on allowances - they really are £2.50/hr for all of us....not sure what you are driving at about captain getting more. Am I missing out on something????
BA is undoubtedly sinking under a weight of extreme and arcane IR paractices. The pilot community is already working close to its legal limit in some areas. As a group we (yes I am one) have moved a long way. We have many agreements about how we should operate but in reality pilots bend over backwards to keep the operation on the road on the day. I simply cannot be anymore flexible day to day.
Bidline may well be a costly rostering system. I have little info on comparisons. Can see TASS is a cost that may need addressing. Not sure about the Duty free week though. My understanding was that this was for the lack of bank holidays - don't most people get those?
Specifics aside, the pilot community could undoubtedly find something else to contribute but I think I speak for many colleagues when I point out that many other groups in BA are extraordinary in their operation. MT at the moment is simply absurd. The whole farce about needing a "chock man" recently....I for one will go further but FIRST it's time for those that would lead us to bite the bullet and take on those more militant groups. At the moment I am left with the impression that the most aggressive, miltant groups get away with murder. That needs to change!
Regards
Diesel
PS just seen your comments on allowances - they really are £2.50/hr for all of us....not sure what you are driving at about captain getting more. Am I missing out on something????
Last edited by Diesel; 15th Jan 2004 at 22:58.
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Darkstar
Bidline is in many companies - virtually every company in the USA has a bidline system - many limited to 75 block hours per month at that, in comparison to our 86/88 hours.
Allowances - ground staff on duty probably get more than flight crew since our changes. £2.50 per hour (taxed at 18%) does not go far in many destinations (OSL, ZRH etc in SH, HKG etc in LH).
Differences still exist with the captain being paid more than ....? Tell us exactly what you mean, cos' I think you'll find that you are wrong, all flight crew get £2.50 per hour TAFB (reduced proportionally if we get back early!).
TAS - I presume you mean Time Assignable. Usually the company's doing not the pilots'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but TAS results from the company canceling a flight or changing the type. Then the pilot is made time assignable, giving the company the opportunity to reuse them - extra standby in effect. If they then choose not to use him, then it's hardly the fault of the pilot.
Draft Payments - paid overtime in efffect for working over and above contracted hours. When required (not that often) it is often because of c*ck ups in other departments. The actual amounts paid are not much different to those at LGW under the Carmen rostering system for Rest Day working. Another thread at the moment suggests that Ryanair pilots are paid Eur 150-ish per block hour overtime - that is more than I get for overtime.
Bidline is in many companies - virtually every company in the USA has a bidline system - many limited to 75 block hours per month at that, in comparison to our 86/88 hours.
Allowances - ground staff on duty probably get more than flight crew since our changes. £2.50 per hour (taxed at 18%) does not go far in many destinations (OSL, ZRH etc in SH, HKG etc in LH).
Differences still exist with the captain being paid more than ....? Tell us exactly what you mean, cos' I think you'll find that you are wrong, all flight crew get £2.50 per hour TAFB (reduced proportionally if we get back early!).
TAS - I presume you mean Time Assignable. Usually the company's doing not the pilots'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but TAS results from the company canceling a flight or changing the type. Then the pilot is made time assignable, giving the company the opportunity to reuse them - extra standby in effect. If they then choose not to use him, then it's hardly the fault of the pilot.
Draft Payments - paid overtime in efffect for working over and above contracted hours. When required (not that often) it is often because of c*ck ups in other departments. The actual amounts paid are not much different to those at LGW under the Carmen rostering system for Rest Day working. Another thread at the moment suggests that Ryanair pilots are paid Eur 150-ish per block hour overtime - that is more than I get for overtime.
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Darkstar,
You say the flightcrew are overpaid ?
I defy you to find any cheaper Flight Crew on the North Atlantic than most of the F/Os on the 767.
Pop onto 123.45 over the Atlantic and you can listen to me and the Captain play:
"I have the Cheapest F/O on the North Atlantic tonight, he gets paid: xxxxx Beat That!"
Most nights the reponses are:
"Is that a month?!?!?!"
Most 767 F/Os are Year 2 F/Os earning less than most of the Long Haul Cabin Crew.
On a recent heavy trip me and the other F/O passed the time while the Capt was on his rest laughing at the fact that between us we earned less than the CSD.
In the bar that night the Junior Cabin Crew were horrified to learn they took home more each month than we did and actually bought us a drink out of pity!
Now who ever heard of the Cabin Crew getting the first round in !!
It comes to something when a BA Longhaul Pilot earns less than the Cabin Crew, now who's overpaid ?
FadeC
You say the flightcrew are overpaid ?
I defy you to find any cheaper Flight Crew on the North Atlantic than most of the F/Os on the 767.
Pop onto 123.45 over the Atlantic and you can listen to me and the Captain play:
"I have the Cheapest F/O on the North Atlantic tonight, he gets paid: xxxxx Beat That!"
Most nights the reponses are:
"Is that a month?!?!?!"
Most 767 F/Os are Year 2 F/Os earning less than most of the Long Haul Cabin Crew.
On a recent heavy trip me and the other F/O passed the time while the Capt was on his rest laughing at the fact that between us we earned less than the CSD.
In the bar that night the Junior Cabin Crew were horrified to learn they took home more each month than we did and actually bought us a drink out of pity!
Now who ever heard of the Cabin Crew getting the first round in !!
It comes to something when a BA Longhaul Pilot earns less than the Cabin Crew, now who's overpaid ?
FadeC
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FadeC - I have never said Flt Crew are overpaid. In fact, I concur with your 767 F/O comments related to Cabin Crew pay. My comments relate to out-dated IR practices and agreements.
I do believe that something is wrong when Cabin Crew are earning more than Flt Crew and, dare I say it, many Managers within BA - not all Managers are useless.(...and I'm not Mgmt either) and probably most earn more than myself.
It also beggars belief that many people aspire to Cabin Crew because of the money they can earn (though the new starter rates are more realistic). BA has to tackle it's greatest cost.
I do believe that something is wrong when Cabin Crew are earning more than Flt Crew and, dare I say it, many Managers within BA - not all Managers are useless.(...and I'm not Mgmt either) and probably most earn more than myself.
It also beggars belief that many people aspire to Cabin Crew because of the money they can earn (though the new starter rates are more realistic). BA has to tackle it's greatest cost.
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Having been both Cabin Crew and FC I can assure you that FC earn considerably more than the CC. This " the CSD earns more than the FO" is just rubbish. Too many niave guys believing too many tall stories told after too many beers. The new contract CC actually are getting paid very little. My other half is a CSD, I'm a Capt and she never takes home close to 50% of my net monthly pay. More often than not it is less than a third.
(Many CEP's aren't getting paid the industry standard but that is the deal they signed for when they joined and is another matter. That is how they pay for their training.)
I agree, in part, with the sentiments of Darkstar. Bidline is overly complicated. There does need to be change but I can't really see that the FC can be any more flexible than they already are, the CC on the other hand are NEVER flexible and that has to change.
MT, surely they are about to be outsourced. A total disgrace.
IM, also possibles for outsourcing.
The bottom line is that any idea that saves cash is good idea at the moment.
(Many CEP's aren't getting paid the industry standard but that is the deal they signed for when they joined and is another matter. That is how they pay for their training.)
I agree, in part, with the sentiments of Darkstar. Bidline is overly complicated. There does need to be change but I can't really see that the FC can be any more flexible than they already are, the CC on the other hand are NEVER flexible and that has to change.
MT, surely they are about to be outsourced. A total disgrace.
IM, also possibles for outsourcing.
The bottom line is that any idea that saves cash is good idea at the moment.
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Hmmm.....I don't think BA needs much "outsourcing" per se, especially considering that most outsourcing leaves such a messy bureaucracy behind (to "monitor" the outsourcing company) to negate any cost savings derived from the outsourcing process....
What I imagine they need is an opportunity to tear up the entire company and start from scratch. It's an old airline, it's never been forced to drastically re-organise, let's break down some of those empires (in all areas) and build an airline for the 21st century.
After all, in 10 years time there'll only be 3 major network carriers across the EU. BA could, nay should, be one of them. But it needs to stake its claim ]now.
What I imagine they need is an opportunity to tear up the entire company and start from scratch. It's an old airline, it's never been forced to drastically re-organise, let's break down some of those empires (in all areas) and build an airline for the 21st century.
After all, in 10 years time there'll only be 3 major network carriers across the EU. BA could, nay should, be one of them. But it needs to stake its claim ]now.
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What's the betting that the so called big announcement turns out to be a big let down, just more of the same. Maybe a few more MPE job reductions and lots of talk of efficiency. Probably tackle the less obstructive of the unions, leaving the most militant as they might strike. Few more years of struggling before Rod moves to pastures new. He really doesn't have to fix it all, just appear to have done something and avoid going bust...
