BA Restructuring Plans
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<<......they wish to carry on as a franchise and do not wish to be subsumed into BA ....>>
Sorry, if I gave the impression that the work was to ne subsumed into BA.
What is proposed - I am informed - is rather than the Franchisees' work being subsumed into BA, the opposite is to take place. BA SH (and MH) work is to be reorganised with the work farmed out to the Franchisees as described previously with only the BA pilots being seconded to the Franchisees.
The high cost of the BA SH operation is not due to the cost of the pilots but due to the cost of the cabin crew and ground staff. The Franchisees have said that it will take them 12months to train enough staff of their own and set up improved scheduling systems so Summer 05 will be the date by which all this happens.
Sorry, if I gave the impression that the work was to ne subsumed into BA.
What is proposed - I am informed - is rather than the Franchisees' work being subsumed into BA, the opposite is to take place. BA SH (and MH) work is to be reorganised with the work farmed out to the Franchisees as described previously with only the BA pilots being seconded to the Franchisees.
The high cost of the BA SH operation is not due to the cost of the pilots but due to the cost of the cabin crew and ground staff. The Franchisees have said that it will take them 12months to train enough staff of their own and set up improved scheduling systems so Summer 05 will be the date by which all this happens.
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Carnage Matey - regarding Rod in HK during the groundstaff walk-out, he flew out and back on CX (better product?!) and walked past me on the Sunday afternoon - outside Dan Ryan's in Pacific Place. I didn't see his dog but he did have his wife with him!!!!
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Sharman; Since when has the ramp / cabin brew been the high cost source and flt crew deemed as competitively priced. All three units combine to make the Euro routes costly besides which the rapid and competitive growth of the LCs has caused huge fiscal problems for all Euro short haul operators ex LHR.
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HZ123
You really should pay more attention to what is going on.
A process started pre 911 and was temporarily halted post 911 before being concluded and implemented early last year whereby the BA pilots total packages were benchmarked against LH, KLM and AF. This delivers to the company equivalent salary levels against our major, full service European competitors. I hasten to add that the company gains by virtue of better productivity from BA pilots varying well into double-digits in percentage terms.
Meanwhile this benchmarking has not been conducted elsewhere, and it is those areas where the terms and conditions and numbers are WELL above industry standard.
As part of the benchmarking process, BALPA determined the number of employees per aircraft and the number of employees per pilot in comparison to LH etc, who have very similar fleet portfolios, and demonstrated to management that BA was overmanned by about 20,000. Some of those have now gone, but much more is needed. OK, some of the BA excesses are due to LHR (BA is the UK's 2nd biggest bus operator, for example), but many working practises need to be brought into the late 20th let alone the 21st Century. Areas that need urgent attention are certainly Cabin Crew and MT (Drivers) and no doubt that black hole aka baggage handling is also right up there. That's on the front-line, as to the back room staff, I know less specifics but could well imagine that a thorough spring clean is needed.
As to Flight Crew, no doubt the company have their wish list for us, but overall at Board level they have no real issues with us.
You really should pay more attention to what is going on.
A process started pre 911 and was temporarily halted post 911 before being concluded and implemented early last year whereby the BA pilots total packages were benchmarked against LH, KLM and AF. This delivers to the company equivalent salary levels against our major, full service European competitors. I hasten to add that the company gains by virtue of better productivity from BA pilots varying well into double-digits in percentage terms.
Meanwhile this benchmarking has not been conducted elsewhere, and it is those areas where the terms and conditions and numbers are WELL above industry standard.
As part of the benchmarking process, BALPA determined the number of employees per aircraft and the number of employees per pilot in comparison to LH etc, who have very similar fleet portfolios, and demonstrated to management that BA was overmanned by about 20,000. Some of those have now gone, but much more is needed. OK, some of the BA excesses are due to LHR (BA is the UK's 2nd biggest bus operator, for example), but many working practises need to be brought into the late 20th let alone the 21st Century. Areas that need urgent attention are certainly Cabin Crew and MT (Drivers) and no doubt that black hole aka baggage handling is also right up there. That's on the front-line, as to the back room staff, I know less specifics but could well imagine that a thorough spring clean is needed.
As to Flight Crew, no doubt the company have their wish list for us, but overall at Board level they have no real issues with us.
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Thanks for that. There are problems in trying to achieve CC and Ramp cuts. Ramp has for some time been short staffed and subsequent on-line recruitment has failed to obtain the numbers of new contract ramp staff, due in the main to the pay levels offered which are now lower than Aviance / OCS.
Ideally the unit would be best outsourced but I could not see a company large enough or with the experience to take on BA ramp activities. As regard to MT I think you will find there that also it is under resourced and they have failed in the past to recruit staff as the new contract rates are less than many LHR based coaching groups.
One other issue is that even with the ground service package outsourced BA will be required to provide the equipment and logistics and some cases of previous outsourcing the end result has been worst service and greater costs. For example I am reliably informed that our motor vehicle service contract costs a minimum of £1000 per annum plus actual costs per service / repair and this charge is on a Ford Fiesta and the sum rises with the vehicle type.
CC are recruiting 750 staff at present with a basic of £9800 plus allowances which means if they end up on shorthaul there will not be a great deal of those.
I would tend to agree with you that we may be seen to franchise more Euro routes and concentrate on Eastern block and the newer former soviet states that offer good returns for the immediate future.
Ideally the unit would be best outsourced but I could not see a company large enough or with the experience to take on BA ramp activities. As regard to MT I think you will find there that also it is under resourced and they have failed in the past to recruit staff as the new contract rates are less than many LHR based coaching groups.
One other issue is that even with the ground service package outsourced BA will be required to provide the equipment and logistics and some cases of previous outsourcing the end result has been worst service and greater costs. For example I am reliably informed that our motor vehicle service contract costs a minimum of £1000 per annum plus actual costs per service / repair and this charge is on a Ford Fiesta and the sum rises with the vehicle type.
CC are recruiting 750 staff at present with a basic of £9800 plus allowances which means if they end up on shorthaul there will not be a great deal of those.
I would tend to agree with you that we may be seen to franchise more Euro routes and concentrate on Eastern block and the newer former soviet states that offer good returns for the immediate future.
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Benchmarking total packages against LH, AF,- ie old established European carriers may be interesting, but these airlines also have enormous cost problems. The challenge is coming from the low cost carriers, especially in Europe . They continue to expand, open up new routes, especially from the UK provinces, while BA contracts into its Heathrow heartland.
Most of BAs costs ,- and those include remuneration/productivity relationships,- render it vulnerable and thats true of pilots just as much as cabin crew , ground staff and management . No one group can say " Its them, not us". All BA folk are in the current situation together.
Most of BAs costs ,- and those include remuneration/productivity relationships,- render it vulnerable and thats true of pilots just as much as cabin crew , ground staff and management . No one group can say " Its them, not us". All BA folk are in the current situation together.
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Skylion,
The second P in PPRuNe stands for pilots. Perhaps having costs stand in comparison to the LCC's frightens the denizens of Waterworld far more than those on the flightdeck. Comes under the heading of far too difficult or, for the deeply cynical, turkeys voting for Christmas.
Regards
Rob
The second P in PPRuNe stands for pilots. Perhaps having costs stand in comparison to the LCC's frightens the denizens of Waterworld far more than those on the flightdeck. Comes under the heading of far too difficult or, for the deeply cynical, turkeys voting for Christmas.
Regards
Rob
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If BA were to pass all SH flying to its franchise partners this would leave an awful lot of staff based LHR with no job i.e. redundant. BA has no real interest in paying redundancy (trying to preserve its cash pile) and no enthusiasm for dealing with the inevitable conflict with its staff unions. Can't really imagine BA has the stomach for quite such a reorganisation.
Could always be wrong though.....
Could always be wrong though.....
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Skylion, BA's longhaul pilots are working to the legal limits already: the list of people on the status sheet each month who are up on the rolling 900 hour limit runs into pages - the productivity issue is not there in LH.
As to shorthaul the fundamental issue is whether the integrated network carrier has any future at all. Without shorthaul feed a lonhaul network carrier can not survive and yet the shorthaul network that feeds longhaul at a main hub is INEVITABLY inefficient in terms of daily aircraft utilisation compared to the point to point model of the lo cost carrier.
The reasons for this are fairly obvious - interline baggage, turnaround times where aircraft need catering, fitting the arrival times of the waves of incoming SH aircraft to provide realistic integrations with the Longhual services, nighstopping aircraft at European outstations to facilitate the interline connections etc etc.
BA SH pilots are not unproductive in terms of DUTY hours and at, in the LGW case, often 750 + flying hours per year not that inefficient compared to the lo costers in terms of flight hours, (or stick time as the Americans say), either. On a personal note I dont think I could physically cope with a 30 year career of over 750 hours SH flying a year anyway.
It is notable that many BA shorthaul pilots earn less than they would at an equivalent seniority in a lo cost carrier.
I think Ed Roddington has it when he says the "elephant in BA's row boat" is the 4.8 Billion of debt incurred by Robert A@ling. Compared to a cashflow positive company from interest on money at the bank like Ryanair, BA is slowly drowning in interest repayments.
There are, I suggest, very real isssues of Corporate Governance that allowed a Board of Directors to act with such impunity as far as shareholder value is concerned. I doubt very much that they will ever be addressed
The only solution appears to be the "run the production line faster and blame the workers", so often the way with British Industry over the years.
One thing is for sure, BA's LH network will not exist without shorthaul feed. I doubt that costs could be taken far below what is already achieved at operations like the Gatwick shorthaul network, at least on the pilot pay and productivity side, in an open market. The issue has to be either a restructuring of the debt or the end of a British integrated network carrier. Perhaps the latter course is the discipline of the market at work, but I and my pilot colleagues didn't create the overdraft.
As to shorthaul the fundamental issue is whether the integrated network carrier has any future at all. Without shorthaul feed a lonhaul network carrier can not survive and yet the shorthaul network that feeds longhaul at a main hub is INEVITABLY inefficient in terms of daily aircraft utilisation compared to the point to point model of the lo cost carrier.
The reasons for this are fairly obvious - interline baggage, turnaround times where aircraft need catering, fitting the arrival times of the waves of incoming SH aircraft to provide realistic integrations with the Longhual services, nighstopping aircraft at European outstations to facilitate the interline connections etc etc.
BA SH pilots are not unproductive in terms of DUTY hours and at, in the LGW case, often 750 + flying hours per year not that inefficient compared to the lo costers in terms of flight hours, (or stick time as the Americans say), either. On a personal note I dont think I could physically cope with a 30 year career of over 750 hours SH flying a year anyway.
It is notable that many BA shorthaul pilots earn less than they would at an equivalent seniority in a lo cost carrier.
I think Ed Roddington has it when he says the "elephant in BA's row boat" is the 4.8 Billion of debt incurred by Robert A@ling. Compared to a cashflow positive company from interest on money at the bank like Ryanair, BA is slowly drowning in interest repayments.
There are, I suggest, very real isssues of Corporate Governance that allowed a Board of Directors to act with such impunity as far as shareholder value is concerned. I doubt very much that they will ever be addressed
The only solution appears to be the "run the production line faster and blame the workers", so often the way with British Industry over the years.
One thing is for sure, BA's LH network will not exist without shorthaul feed. I doubt that costs could be taken far below what is already achieved at operations like the Gatwick shorthaul network, at least on the pilot pay and productivity side, in an open market. The issue has to be either a restructuring of the debt or the end of a British integrated network carrier. Perhaps the latter course is the discipline of the market at work, but I and my pilot colleagues didn't create the overdraft.
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Now that has to be the simplest, most accurate, broad-brush, 'big picture' assessment of BA's problems I have read on here, or anywhere else for that matter.
Congratulations on an incisive diagnosis - the only problem is the problem itself, which appears pretty insoluble.
Congratulations on an incisive diagnosis - the only problem is the problem itself, which appears pretty insoluble.
Ethnic tails are admittedly a joke, but only millions - not billions.
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Have to agree; Bob was the person who made some effort to enforce tougher working conditions and had he been supported by the board and other management we might not be in such serious problems.
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When Levin and King turned the British Airways Corporation into a plc, they identified an optimum headcount of 42000 to be sufficient for the expanding BA of the early 90’s.
Then something went badly wrong and Ailing Bob found himself in the chair. His first action was to hire 24000 functionally challenged buffoons, who know nothing and were qualified for even less, to make BA ‘the best managed company in the World
Finding themselves with nothing to do, these parasites rushed about with clipboards and mobile phones getting in the way of the people who were doing the job. As performance declined, they introduced targets and KRAs which steadily became the only incentive driving the Company.
Those who cried ‘ICEBERG’ were rubbished and sidelined, and very soon the only people who remained in positions of responsibility were the YesBobs, whose sole pleasure was the favour of the Emporer. ‘Full speed ahead’ became the battle cry.
They continued toward inspired policies such as $1bn fixed rate loans at 10%, financing the 777s with Yen loans when the Yen was weak. Those same loans now cost a fortune as the balance tips. There are more and worse lamentations.
Now we pay £39000 an hour in interest alone, the management is still pervaded by incompetence to the very highest levels. The Cabin Crew, who have legendary numbers of managers, are about to get yet more managers. Terminal 4 is an unmitigated disaster, and they haven’t a clue what to do. They’re running about like Chicken Lickin as the sky falls in. All courtesy of the worst offender of all, Strike Meat.
The solution is clear as a shining star, 24000 administrative non-operational staff need to leave. This apocalyptic prescription is so terrifying for the legions of inepts, who have no chance of employment elsewhere, that they are in denial.
Whilst we still turnover £7.1bn, there may be enough to keep the gravytrain on the rails. Otherwise, administration would be the only way out. It’s like having woodworm.
Then something went badly wrong and Ailing Bob found himself in the chair. His first action was to hire 24000 functionally challenged buffoons, who know nothing and were qualified for even less, to make BA ‘the best managed company in the World
Finding themselves with nothing to do, these parasites rushed about with clipboards and mobile phones getting in the way of the people who were doing the job. As performance declined, they introduced targets and KRAs which steadily became the only incentive driving the Company.
Those who cried ‘ICEBERG’ were rubbished and sidelined, and very soon the only people who remained in positions of responsibility were the YesBobs, whose sole pleasure was the favour of the Emporer. ‘Full speed ahead’ became the battle cry.
They continued toward inspired policies such as $1bn fixed rate loans at 10%, financing the 777s with Yen loans when the Yen was weak. Those same loans now cost a fortune as the balance tips. There are more and worse lamentations.
Now we pay £39000 an hour in interest alone, the management is still pervaded by incompetence to the very highest levels. The Cabin Crew, who have legendary numbers of managers, are about to get yet more managers. Terminal 4 is an unmitigated disaster, and they haven’t a clue what to do. They’re running about like Chicken Lickin as the sky falls in. All courtesy of the worst offender of all, Strike Meat.
The solution is clear as a shining star, 24000 administrative non-operational staff need to leave. This apocalyptic prescription is so terrifying for the legions of inepts, who have no chance of employment elsewhere, that they are in denial.
Whilst we still turnover £7.1bn, there may be enough to keep the gravytrain on the rails. Otherwise, administration would be the only way out. It’s like having woodworm.
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DarkStar
Just shows how little you know then, doesn't it!
Just as an example:
Bidline at LHR - shorthaul fleet : I have flown 730 hours in the last 12 months, no overtime, consiously trying to maximise time off and doing single sector days if possible.
Carmen at LGW - B737: flying about 750 hours per anunum with little satisfaction of choice of days off or destinations.
Can I suggest that you don't comment on what you don't know about in future.
Just shows how little you know then, doesn't it!
Just as an example:
Bidline at LHR - shorthaul fleet : I have flown 730 hours in the last 12 months, no overtime, consiously trying to maximise time off and doing single sector days if possible.
Carmen at LGW - B737: flying about 750 hours per anunum with little satisfaction of choice of days off or destinations.
Can I suggest that you don't comment on what you don't know about in future.
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Darkstar If I could second Topbunks comments. I fly the -400 and fly between 850 and 900 hrs a yr. Explain to me how I'm inefficient and overpaid again? BTW when I went over the 900 hrs one time, the company deducted the enforced time off from my salary. Cost me 2400 quid to sit at home for working to the companies requirements. Seems like someone has been telling you porky pies...
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PoodleVelour:
I believe the debts came from 2 main sources, buildings (Waterside, new world cargo centre) and aircraft (buying 50+ 747 400s, 40+ 777 200s and then after that 60+ new Airbus for european routes). Not sure what the exact numbers are but they are probably on the BA website.
Add to that building and then dismantling a hub at Gatwick and the pensions liabilities and there's the problem.
Roobarb wrote:
"The solution is clear as a shining star, 24000 administrative non-operational staff need to leave"
But according to this recent article
http://www.guardian.co.uk/airlines/s...106942,00.html
there is now 46000 staff, 13000 have gone in the last 2 years and there are rumours of another 5000 this year. That makes a possible 18000 total to go. Is roobarb asking for another 24 on top of that, leaving 22, or 6 more to make 24 total, assuming that the rumoured 5 is real and the first 13 were all admin? And can there really be that many "administrative non-operational staff" left in BA? I think I read on these pages that some of the 13000 to go were engineers at Gatwick ?
My point is, it seems to me 22000 isn't enough for a company the size of BA so maybe the outsourcing european flying rumour has some truth ? If more people get sacked then at least some would have to come from operational staff wouldn't they?
Does anyone from BA know what the numbers are, how many admin are left after the 13 + 5 cuts ?
And also, what does "the worst offender, strike meat" mean, I don't know that term?
I believe the debts came from 2 main sources, buildings (Waterside, new world cargo centre) and aircraft (buying 50+ 747 400s, 40+ 777 200s and then after that 60+ new Airbus for european routes). Not sure what the exact numbers are but they are probably on the BA website.
Add to that building and then dismantling a hub at Gatwick and the pensions liabilities and there's the problem.
Roobarb wrote:
"The solution is clear as a shining star, 24000 administrative non-operational staff need to leave"
But according to this recent article
http://www.guardian.co.uk/airlines/s...106942,00.html
there is now 46000 staff, 13000 have gone in the last 2 years and there are rumours of another 5000 this year. That makes a possible 18000 total to go. Is roobarb asking for another 24 on top of that, leaving 22, or 6 more to make 24 total, assuming that the rumoured 5 is real and the first 13 were all admin? And can there really be that many "administrative non-operational staff" left in BA? I think I read on these pages that some of the 13000 to go were engineers at Gatwick ?
My point is, it seems to me 22000 isn't enough for a company the size of BA so maybe the outsourcing european flying rumour has some truth ? If more people get sacked then at least some would have to come from operational staff wouldn't they?
Does anyone from BA know what the numbers are, how many admin are left after the 13 + 5 cuts ?
And also, what does "the worst offender, strike meat" mean, I don't know that term?
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Clearly Darkstar is anti crew as this is not the first thread that he has had a pop off in. What is the betting he is probably a BA senior manager so in fairness he/she is entitled to be out of touch with many of the BA problems.
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I believe Mr Meat is a spoonerism, allowing the infamous individual to pass these annals un-named.
13000 staff cut so far is an accounting excercise. If you compare the staff numbers as published by BA in its accounts, I have figures as follows:
.
The fact is we have 3 people for every 2 jobs, in an industry where we cannot afford the luxury of a behemoth bureaucracy.
The old dog is right.
13000 staff cut so far is an accounting excercise. If you compare the staff numbers as published by BA in its accounts, I have figures as follows:
.The fact is we have 3 people for every 2 jobs, in an industry where we cannot afford the luxury of a behemoth bureaucracy.
The old dog is right.