AF Flight intercepted on flight into LAX
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 3
From: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Maybe they are just getting their own back on the French, who as we around Europe are aware have for some time being doing illegal practice intercepts in French airspace on commercial aircraft without their permission (and without any loss of radio contact).
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,896
Likes: 1
From: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Here's about all I see in today's British press about Air France security:
Killer was hired as Air France guard
Paul Webster in Paris
Wednesday December 31, 2003
The Guardian
The company put in charge of security for Air France flights employed a convicted murderer and a number of others with serious criminal records, it emerged yesterday.
The background of the guards was disclosed in a Paris court during a hearing to wind up the company, Pretory, which had been operating security on the French airline for more than two years but went into bankruptcy after tax fraud allegations.
The revelation of its lax recruiting methods coincided with the disclosure that armed French police have been flying with Air France to the US since December 23.
The government ordered the use of the gendarmerie after the US said that flights without armed escorts would be banned from overflying or landing, because of the fear of terrorism.
Last week Air France cancelled six transatlantic crossings at short notice after Washington said terrorists might be on board.
The airline refused to make any comment on a possible link with the use of a dodgy private company...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/airlines/s...114194,00.html
Killer was hired as Air France guard
Paul Webster in Paris
Wednesday December 31, 2003
The Guardian
The company put in charge of security for Air France flights employed a convicted murderer and a number of others with serious criminal records, it emerged yesterday.
The background of the guards was disclosed in a Paris court during a hearing to wind up the company, Pretory, which had been operating security on the French airline for more than two years but went into bankruptcy after tax fraud allegations.
The revelation of its lax recruiting methods coincided with the disclosure that armed French police have been flying with Air France to the US since December 23.
The government ordered the use of the gendarmerie after the US said that flights without armed escorts would be banned from overflying or landing, because of the fear of terrorism.
Last week Air France cancelled six transatlantic crossings at short notice after Washington said terrorists might be on board.
The airline refused to make any comment on a possible link with the use of a dodgy private company...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/airlines/s...114194,00.html
Pegase Driver
Joined: May 1997
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
Posts: 4,451
Likes: 1,164
From: Europe
topbunk :since when does military need permission of the intercepted a/c ? you obviously were asleep when they had the airlaw courses .
If indeed,as you profile says you are an A320 ATPL, I suggest you look again at the ICAO interception procedures and read NOTAMS.. RTF is only one of a the long list of reasons why an a/c can be intercepted.
I do not think there is such thing as practice interceptions nowadays , cost too much money, and good reasons for plenty of real ones around anyway.
Bonne annee !
If indeed,as you profile says you are an A320 ATPL, I suggest you look again at the ICAO interception procedures and read NOTAMS.. RTF is only one of a the long list of reasons why an a/c can be intercepted.
I do not think there is such thing as practice interceptions nowadays , cost too much money, and good reasons for plenty of real ones around anyway.
Bonne annee !
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,575
Likes: 4
From: UK
ATCW - I believe the French to be in breach of ICAO regs in conducting PRACTICE intercepts on civilian aircraft. That is the point TB was making. It has been proscribed in the UK for many years. They are consistently doing it and it is wrong. If they do not have enough serviceable military aircraft of their own to practice on they should restrict themselves to French registered civilian aircraft.
Nice to see the exercise returned!
Nice to see the exercise returned!
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
From: U.K.
ATC Watcher, the French do carry out practice intercepts, I heard one in Brest airspace only about a week ago. The commercial jet being intercepted was told that it was a practice and the exact time it was going to happen. His flight had been "selected" by the French for no particular reason and he had no right of refusal.
Not really a useful suggestion!
I suggest you look again at the ICAO interception procedures and read NOTAMS.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
From: Mostly Western hemisphere
Well, for the last two years the USAF has been very busy every week, sometimes several times a week, in making "practice missile launches" on real airliners cruising in US airspace, and they don't ask any permission for that (I guess those missions won't go away in a near future). So what's the fuss with making practice intercepts without a letter signed by Mom and Dad ? At least the pax now have something to watch -uncensored- that does not fry their neurons !
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,369
Likes: 3
From: UK.
IMHO neither practice missile lock-on or practice interceptions without the commander's permission are justified.
However, if aware that such action has taken place, all a civil commander can do is to file an MOR.
However, if aware that such action has taken place, all a civil commander can do is to file an MOR.
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 474
Likes: 0
From: Ayrshire, Scotland
ATC Watcher
Try telling that to the ATCOs at Newcastle, Pennine and ScACC. Just read the Airprox reports and see the discussions about the rules for intercepting "targets of opportunity". 
I do not think there is such thing as practice interceptions nowadays
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,896
Likes: 1
From: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
>>Since NORAD hasn't existed for many years, no, they didn't.
Perhaps you're not very familiar with military aviation but NORAD has increased its vigilance since the 9-11 attacks.
See: http://www.norad.mil/
After the news about BA 223's fighter escort yesterday, it does look very possible that AF may have been escorted, perhaps starting in Canadian airspace. And no, it wasn't for practice...
Perhaps you're not very familiar with military aviation but NORAD has increased its vigilance since the 9-11 attacks.
See: http://www.norad.mil/
After the news about BA 223's fighter escort yesterday, it does look very possible that AF may have been escorted, perhaps starting in Canadian airspace. And no, it wasn't for practice...
Pegase Driver
Joined: May 1997
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
Posts: 4,451
Likes: 1,164
From: Europe
Angelīs : no sorry, at home sipping my St Julien until Sunday..
BOAC + others : if you look at the ICAO list of reasons for intercept , one says for instance : " Divergence from the flight plan " ( a very valid one since 9/11 I would say ) so every time you take a Direct , in fact you open yourself to the possibility of an interception.
So I would say the military have a field day when they want to practice and do not need " permissions" .
Also there are many interceptions done that you will never see from the cockpit as they stay behind and high and I personally see nothing wrong with that on the contrary. The more they practice the less chance we will see things like KL007 , or even Transavia recently..
In any case , in this period of good wishes and good resolutions I raise my glass to the good old " entente cordiale " hoping that we will keep up the good spirit in 2004 ..
BOAC + others : if you look at the ICAO list of reasons for intercept , one says for instance : " Divergence from the flight plan " ( a very valid one since 9/11 I would say ) so every time you take a Direct , in fact you open yourself to the possibility of an interception.
So I would say the military have a field day when they want to practice and do not need " permissions" .
Also there are many interceptions done that you will never see from the cockpit as they stay behind and high and I personally see nothing wrong with that on the contrary. The more they practice the less chance we will see things like KL007 , or even Transavia recently..
In any case , in this period of good wishes and good resolutions I raise my glass to the good old " entente cordiale " hoping that we will keep up the good spirit in 2004 ..
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,896
Likes: 1
From: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
This article mentions some AF intercepts:
Name Mixup Behind Air France Groundings
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: January 2, 2004
Filed at 10:21 a.m. ET
PARIS (AP) -- Six cases of mistaken identity were behind the pre-Christmas grounding of six Air France flights between Paris and Los Angeles over terrorism fears, a police official said Friday.
The names of six passengers were similar to those of terrorist suspects provided by the FBI, prompting the French government to halt the flights, the official said on condition of anonymity.
Pierre Debue, director of the French border police, said one name on the list turned out to be that of a 5-year-old child. The Wall Street Journal on Friday said two other suspected terrorists turned out to be an elderly Chinese woman and a Welsh insurance agent.
French police officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said errors in spelling and transcription of Arabic names played a role in the mix-up. But Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy said it was better to err on the side of caution.
``It's a period of tension and a period of risk,'' he said. ``I prefer the principle of precaution.''
U.S. intelligence officials told their French counterparts that members of the al-Qaida terrorist network might try to board the planes over Christmas, French judicial officials have said.
But careful scrutiny of passenger manifests and the brief questioning of seven passengers failed to turn up evidence that a suicide hijacking was in the works.
Debue said that since the Christmas Eve cancellations, authorities have found a few passengers nearly every day who are considered suspicious by American intelligence authorities.
French authorities went ahead and authorized a flight several days ago ``that American authorities didn't particularly want,'' Deputy Transport Minister Dominique Boussereau said Friday.
``We thought that all security measures had been taken, that the verifications of passengers had been such that this flight had every reason to fly,'' he said on Europe-1 radio. He did not identify the flight.
Meanwhile, two Air France flights, on Tuesday and Wednesday, were joined by F-16 fighter jets as they approached Los Angeles for landing, according to the Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times.
Boussereau said French jet fighters also occasionally escort passenger aircraft.
``In periods of maximum security, this kind of procedure is common,'' he said without elaborating.
Undercover French agents were flying on some flights to the United States even before Washington asked this week that foreign airlines put armed air marshals on certain flights.
However, French officials have said that the extent of the program remained under discussion with U.S. officials.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/inte...-Security.html
Name Mixup Behind Air France Groundings
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: January 2, 2004
Filed at 10:21 a.m. ET
PARIS (AP) -- Six cases of mistaken identity were behind the pre-Christmas grounding of six Air France flights between Paris and Los Angeles over terrorism fears, a police official said Friday.
The names of six passengers were similar to those of terrorist suspects provided by the FBI, prompting the French government to halt the flights, the official said on condition of anonymity.
Pierre Debue, director of the French border police, said one name on the list turned out to be that of a 5-year-old child. The Wall Street Journal on Friday said two other suspected terrorists turned out to be an elderly Chinese woman and a Welsh insurance agent.
French police officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said errors in spelling and transcription of Arabic names played a role in the mix-up. But Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy said it was better to err on the side of caution.
``It's a period of tension and a period of risk,'' he said. ``I prefer the principle of precaution.''
U.S. intelligence officials told their French counterparts that members of the al-Qaida terrorist network might try to board the planes over Christmas, French judicial officials have said.
But careful scrutiny of passenger manifests and the brief questioning of seven passengers failed to turn up evidence that a suicide hijacking was in the works.
Debue said that since the Christmas Eve cancellations, authorities have found a few passengers nearly every day who are considered suspicious by American intelligence authorities.
French authorities went ahead and authorized a flight several days ago ``that American authorities didn't particularly want,'' Deputy Transport Minister Dominique Boussereau said Friday.
``We thought that all security measures had been taken, that the verifications of passengers had been such that this flight had every reason to fly,'' he said on Europe-1 radio. He did not identify the flight.
Meanwhile, two Air France flights, on Tuesday and Wednesday, were joined by F-16 fighter jets as they approached Los Angeles for landing, according to the Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times.
Boussereau said French jet fighters also occasionally escort passenger aircraft.
``In periods of maximum security, this kind of procedure is common,'' he said without elaborating.
Undercover French agents were flying on some flights to the United States even before Washington asked this week that foreign airlines put armed air marshals on certain flights.
However, French officials have said that the extent of the program remained under discussion with U.S. officials.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/inte...-Security.html
