Body found in jet's wheel compartment
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Went to a CAA safety presentation about a year ago. A Doctor from the licensing department gave a presentation on stowaways in wheel wells.
Some key points I remember:
1) About 50% survive, which was why the CAA had apparently done a little investigating.
2) Temperature you would think would be significantly below freezing. Wrong. Most immediate problem is high temperature due to the brakes being hot still. Temperature in wheel wells in first hour of a long haul flight can be up to around +50 deg celcius. Coldest it gets to is about -5 deg celcius. Now this is no colder than Dartmoor in winter.
3) Eventually the stowaway will pass out due to the lack of oxygen. But as its cold (ish) oxygen requirement is greatly reduced. Hence around 50% survive.
4) What kills the other 50% is that someone selects gear down at around 2000ft on finals and our unconsious stowaway falls to his/her death.
5) Stowaways are not usually climbing up in to the undercarriage bay during a turnaround at a major international airport like EGLL etc. They generally climb in during taxi, at runway holds etc at more remote places around the world trying to get to a country like UK / USA etc etc.
With regard to the security issue, as with the Sky Marshalls thing, the answer lies, IMHO, in stopping the terrorist getting onboard the aircraft in the first place. IE airport security. All very well having some sort of CO2 detector system in the undercarriage bay, by the time you detector has allerted you, it could well be to late.....
Some key points I remember:
1) About 50% survive, which was why the CAA had apparently done a little investigating.
2) Temperature you would think would be significantly below freezing. Wrong. Most immediate problem is high temperature due to the brakes being hot still. Temperature in wheel wells in first hour of a long haul flight can be up to around +50 deg celcius. Coldest it gets to is about -5 deg celcius. Now this is no colder than Dartmoor in winter.
3) Eventually the stowaway will pass out due to the lack of oxygen. But as its cold (ish) oxygen requirement is greatly reduced. Hence around 50% survive.
4) What kills the other 50% is that someone selects gear down at around 2000ft on finals and our unconsious stowaway falls to his/her death.
5) Stowaways are not usually climbing up in to the undercarriage bay during a turnaround at a major international airport like EGLL etc. They generally climb in during taxi, at runway holds etc at more remote places around the world trying to get to a country like UK / USA etc etc.
With regard to the security issue, as with the Sky Marshalls thing, the answer lies, IMHO, in stopping the terrorist getting onboard the aircraft in the first place. IE airport security. All very well having some sort of CO2 detector system in the undercarriage bay, by the time you detector has allerted you, it could well be to late.....
This is one problem that isn't going to go away, is it? Perimeter security will always be the Achille's heel, particularly in countries generating the stowaways.
We only hear about the frozen corpses and the occasional successful stowaway. How many more cop out at the last minute or don't quite make it before the aircraft starts moving?
A few posts on here mentioned CCTV and sensors and I'm sure there must be companies working on precisely that now. Isn't it rather a lot to expect that you can put a monitor on the flight deck and build a constant watch of it into the pre-departure procedures? The remedy might just turn out to be a lot worse than the disease.
But what if you had a monitor on the flight deck and another on a bulkhead in the cabin, with one of the cabin staff assigned to watch it during the departure taxiing pauses? The flight deck monitor only switched on when the need is felt for a view of the cabin.
Isn't it Airtours that have the forward-pointing CCTV mounted underneath? I wonder what a little pod of three infrared cameras placed under the fuselage midway between the nosegear and the leading edge of the wings would cost. Combined with motion sensors in the back corners of the main gear wheel bays, a few hundred thousand dollars per aircraft perhaps? Ouch.
As for terrorists placing or carrying bombs into wheel wells, isn't that a bit far-fetched considering shoulder-held alternatives released from the perimeter fencing itself?
We only hear about the frozen corpses and the occasional successful stowaway. How many more cop out at the last minute or don't quite make it before the aircraft starts moving?
A few posts on here mentioned CCTV and sensors and I'm sure there must be companies working on precisely that now. Isn't it rather a lot to expect that you can put a monitor on the flight deck and build a constant watch of it into the pre-departure procedures? The remedy might just turn out to be a lot worse than the disease.
But what if you had a monitor on the flight deck and another on a bulkhead in the cabin, with one of the cabin staff assigned to watch it during the departure taxiing pauses? The flight deck monitor only switched on when the need is felt for a view of the cabin.
Isn't it Airtours that have the forward-pointing CCTV mounted underneath? I wonder what a little pod of three infrared cameras placed under the fuselage midway between the nosegear and the leading edge of the wings would cost. Combined with motion sensors in the back corners of the main gear wheel bays, a few hundred thousand dollars per aircraft perhaps? Ouch.
As for terrorists placing or carrying bombs into wheel wells, isn't that a bit far-fetched considering shoulder-held alternatives released from the perimeter fencing itself?
The Reverend
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Wino, I don't know about the A300 but to cycle the gear doors on a 747 on the ground is not that simple and would take a long time to accomplish at the ramp. You would have to get a ground engineer to manually open four gear doors after depressurizing hydraulic systems 1 and 4 and re-pressurize to close the doors after inspection. Totally impractical to catch the stowaway that boards during taxi or at the holding point.
Planting an explosive device in a wheel well would by no means be a "non event" but apart from loss of hydraulics, fuel tank rupture, spar damage would in most likelyhood result in wing seperation. R.I.P.
Planting an explosive device in a wheel well would by no means be a "non event" but apart from loss of hydraulics, fuel tank rupture, spar damage would in most likelyhood result in wing seperation. R.I.P.
Union Goon
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Ever looked at the spar of a wing? Think I beam...
Hard to cut without a shaped charge or prolonged heat I think. I know if you actually looked at it, your hair would fall out if you saw howmany cracks are probably stop drilled in it.... You are right about the fuel tanks though... On the otherhand if the charge isn't placed right against the spar, a lot of energy would just go out through the gear doors without the excess energy of the pressure vessel to cause secondary damage...
If the engines were running on the A300 you could pull and handle for each wheel well and the corresponding door would snap open and closed quite crisply. (works that way for the 727 and the 320 as well)
If you pulled the handles with the hydraulics depresssurized the door would lazily drift open. If you returned the handle to its proper positoin the door would stay there, but would snap upon aplication of hydraulics (one of the reasons you always check before pressurizing hydraulics, especially if the doors are open)
Cheers
Wino
Hard to cut without a shaped charge or prolonged heat I think. I know if you actually looked at it, your hair would fall out if you saw howmany cracks are probably stop drilled in it.... You are right about the fuel tanks though... On the otherhand if the charge isn't placed right against the spar, a lot of energy would just go out through the gear doors without the excess energy of the pressure vessel to cause secondary damage...
If the engines were running on the A300 you could pull and handle for each wheel well and the corresponding door would snap open and closed quite crisply. (works that way for the 727 and the 320 as well)
If you pulled the handles with the hydraulics depresssurized the door would lazily drift open. If you returned the handle to its proper positoin the door would stay there, but would snap upon aplication of hydraulics (one of the reasons you always check before pressurizing hydraulics, especially if the doors are open)
Cheers
Wino
Gatvol
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After being Slammed for Insensitivity on the last thread, I will just suggest the following.
Regulation Seating and Oxygen to be installed in all wheels wells. Double Blanket ration. Inflight meals prestowed and acceptable to those thoses requiring special meals ie. (Religious or Vegetarian) and the ability to heat them on the brake pads.
As this is extremely discounted seating, no inflight movies.....
OR
Someone in Management to figure out Whos responsibility it is to check these places thoroughly prior to departure.
Regulation Seating and Oxygen to be installed in all wheels wells. Double Blanket ration. Inflight meals prestowed and acceptable to those thoses requiring special meals ie. (Religious or Vegetarian) and the ability to heat them on the brake pads.
As this is extremely discounted seating, no inflight movies.....
OR
Someone in Management to figure out Whos responsibility it is to check these places thoroughly prior to departure.
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The only things to be concerned about are the dangers of terrorists using the same method, and the danger to innocent people stowaways might fall on top of if they fall out from a great height. Fortunately they've fallen on open land so far so they haven't killed any innocent people.
If stowaways choose to take the risk that's up to them. They're trying to cheat the airline by getting a free ride and trying to cheat their way into a country without permission.
If they die, they die and it might discourage some other criminals from trying the same thing.
If stowaways choose to take the risk that's up to them. They're trying to cheat the airline by getting a free ride and trying to cheat their way into a country without permission.
If they die, they die and it might discourage some other criminals from trying the same thing.
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wbryce
"i disagree with cameras, i believe a sensoring device would be of better use, then the captains wouldn't have to worry about an extra check. They will only have to worry about it if the light on the cockpit flashes to indicate movement in the well."
qrh - unauthorised movement in the wheelwell ! r u real ?
let me guess - fleeing persecution and in danger of his life ! perhaps we should ship some liberal minded do-gooders out to these places to secure their return to the uk.
has anyone thought it might be one of the groundcrew ?
isn't really a suprise, the security thing, anyone who has operated into these airports will know that it's a joke.
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The worrying thing here is not the odd stowaway, he (and they are all male?) took a chance and well, er sad, but i shan't lose any sleep over it. The real worry is the al bin liner chappie who slips thro the fence to the holding point and slips his senmtex inside the well. If he was clever, in fact only half clever he could rig it to go off as the wheels come down (27L/R LHR!)
Little or no risk to him and with a BA timetable and a quick look at the weather charts you could be certain of the approach (Easterly or Westerly) there after everything would be banned from flying over Knightsbridge circle to land training (in sim renewals) might make a bit more sense then!!
Sure Al bin liner wouldn't get his seven Virgins for services rendered, but by now those 7 Virgins are getting well and truly "stuffed" in fact if they have that many Virgins i might change faith
A picture of Gerorge Bush in the wheel well would put most off or falling that just plaster the area with Pig pate'
Little or no risk to him and with a BA timetable and a quick look at the weather charts you could be certain of the approach (Easterly or Westerly) there after everything would be banned from flying over Knightsbridge circle to land training (in sim renewals) might make a bit more sense then!!
Sure Al bin liner wouldn't get his seven Virgins for services rendered, but by now those 7 Virgins are getting well and truly "stuffed" in fact if they have that many Virgins i might change faith
A picture of Gerorge Bush in the wheel well would put most off or falling that just plaster the area with Pig pate'
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Checking the undercarriage bays prior to departure might stop some of the stowaways, but not all of them.
Even though the authorities have tightened up security here (Lagos), it's still not unusual when taxing, to pass people walking alongside the runway.
I've got photographs taken from a 747, of a family laying their laundry out to dry on the edge of the taxiway.
419
Even though the authorities have tightened up security here (Lagos), it's still not unusual when taxing, to pass people walking alongside the runway.
I've got photographs taken from a 747, of a family laying their laundry out to dry on the edge of the taxiway.
419
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Dafties
If the oggies are daft enough to hide in a wheel well, then they deserve to be frozen or flattened! what can you say?
As far as all these ideas of putting cameras, sensors, spare crew, sky cops and all the other daftie thoughts, where are you going to draw the line. People should chill out a bit and get on with it
The only way to be 100% sure is not fly then they win!
As far as all these ideas of putting cameras, sensors, spare crew, sky cops and all the other daftie thoughts, where are you going to draw the line. People should chill out a bit and get on with it
The only way to be 100% sure is not fly then they win!
