Boeing down in Cotonou (merged)
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No RASTAMIKE he is not Afghan. The info on the owner of this aircraft that I posted is 100% correct. He has some kind of "deal/agreement" with Ariana where he sells and leases them old AA B727's that he takes out of storage. I believe this aircraft was leased to Ariana during last years hajj.
The Plumber
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I doubt that a B72-2 overloaded with just pax and baggage in itself, without other anomalies, such as, for example, improper technique, incorrect flap setting, or engine failure, would cause the airplane to stall and crash. With correct configuration and max available power from all three engines the airplane could still fly when significantly overloaded.
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>>With correct configuration and max available power from all three engines the airplane could still fly when significantly overloaded.<<
I've seen that demonstrated many times out of MIA with Caribbean "hand luggage". Taking off to the east you could almost read license plates on Le Jeune Road. It was a lot easier if you had -17R engines...
Here's more on the "unsolved mysteries" aspects of the crash:
Questions Arise Over W. Africa Jet Crash
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: January 2, 2004
Filed at 9:22 p.m. ET
DAKAR, Senegal (AP) -- American authorities are investigating whether a Boeing 727 shattered in a deadly Christmas Day crash off West Africa was the same jet that vanished in Angola last year, setting off a worldwide search, a U.S. State Department spokesman said Friday.
Also, a Canadian humanitarian-flight pilot told The Associated Press he saw a 727 with the missing Angola jet's tail number at Guinea's airport in June -- a month after the jet's disappearance.
The plane's old tail number was not fully covered, and the plane was reregistered in Guinea and flown by Lebanese-owned Union des Transports Africains, pilot Bob Strothers said.
``We saw it on the ramp,'' Strothers said by telephone from the Guinea capital, Conakry. ``A new registration had been painted on the aluminum part, and underneath ... you could see the old registration number, which matches the plane that went missing.''
The plane that crashed off Benin on Christmas Day, killing at least 130 of the 161 people aboard, was Guinean-registered and operated by Union des Transports Africains.
Strothers said he believed UTA had at least two Boeing 727s at the time of the crash, making it impossible for him to judge whether the vanished Angola plane and the crashed Benin jet were the same.
Strothers first disclosed his information before the Christmas Day crash, in which the plane, carrying mostly Lebanese, clipped a building at the end of the runway and plunged into the Atlantic Ocean.
The information heightened the mystery surrounding the missing jet, which took off from an airport in Luanda, Angola, on May 25 and disappeared.
The United States has led an international hunt for the Angola 727, using satellite surveillance to check airstrips around the world, fearing that terrorists might have taken the Angola plane for a Sept. 11-style attack.
American officials also have cited a possible business dispute as a reason for the disappearance of the Angola jet.
Lebanese news media on Friday suggested the two planes were the same.
But aviation officials in Lebanon and others there who are knowledgeable about the country's aviation industry discounted the idea -- telling the AP that the plane that crashed off Benin appeared much older than the one that went missing from Angola.
In Washington, State Department spokesman Lou Fintor said, ``We're aware of the reports. We're checking into them.''
UTA offices in Guinea and in Lebanon have been deserted since the Christmas Day crash, with police surrounding the Guinea offices.
The airline's owner survived the Christmas Day crash, but he and the plane's Libyan pilot have not been seen publicly since leaving the hospital.
In Guinea, transport officials said they investigated Strothers' report that the planes were the same and found it to be false.
``He was mistaken,'' senior aviation deputy Dominique Mara said. ``This wasn't the plane from Luanda. The Transport Ministry has denied this claim.''
Also, the FBI has put out a worldwide alert for American Ben Charles Padilla, who allegedly was seen boarding the Angola jet with another man just before it disappeared.
According to Padilla's family in Florida, he was hired to repossess the jet after Air Angola failed to make lease payments.
His sister, Benita Padilla-Kirkland, told the South Florida Sun-Sentinel she feared the plane crashed or the 51-year-old Padilla was being held against his will.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/inte...ery-Plane.html
I've seen that demonstrated many times out of MIA with Caribbean "hand luggage". Taking off to the east you could almost read license plates on Le Jeune Road. It was a lot easier if you had -17R engines...
Here's more on the "unsolved mysteries" aspects of the crash:
Questions Arise Over W. Africa Jet Crash
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: January 2, 2004
Filed at 9:22 p.m. ET
DAKAR, Senegal (AP) -- American authorities are investigating whether a Boeing 727 shattered in a deadly Christmas Day crash off West Africa was the same jet that vanished in Angola last year, setting off a worldwide search, a U.S. State Department spokesman said Friday.
Also, a Canadian humanitarian-flight pilot told The Associated Press he saw a 727 with the missing Angola jet's tail number at Guinea's airport in June -- a month after the jet's disappearance.
The plane's old tail number was not fully covered, and the plane was reregistered in Guinea and flown by Lebanese-owned Union des Transports Africains, pilot Bob Strothers said.
``We saw it on the ramp,'' Strothers said by telephone from the Guinea capital, Conakry. ``A new registration had been painted on the aluminum part, and underneath ... you could see the old registration number, which matches the plane that went missing.''
The plane that crashed off Benin on Christmas Day, killing at least 130 of the 161 people aboard, was Guinean-registered and operated by Union des Transports Africains.
Strothers said he believed UTA had at least two Boeing 727s at the time of the crash, making it impossible for him to judge whether the vanished Angola plane and the crashed Benin jet were the same.
Strothers first disclosed his information before the Christmas Day crash, in which the plane, carrying mostly Lebanese, clipped a building at the end of the runway and plunged into the Atlantic Ocean.
The information heightened the mystery surrounding the missing jet, which took off from an airport in Luanda, Angola, on May 25 and disappeared.
The United States has led an international hunt for the Angola 727, using satellite surveillance to check airstrips around the world, fearing that terrorists might have taken the Angola plane for a Sept. 11-style attack.
American officials also have cited a possible business dispute as a reason for the disappearance of the Angola jet.
Lebanese news media on Friday suggested the two planes were the same.
But aviation officials in Lebanon and others there who are knowledgeable about the country's aviation industry discounted the idea -- telling the AP that the plane that crashed off Benin appeared much older than the one that went missing from Angola.
In Washington, State Department spokesman Lou Fintor said, ``We're aware of the reports. We're checking into them.''
UTA offices in Guinea and in Lebanon have been deserted since the Christmas Day crash, with police surrounding the Guinea offices.
The airline's owner survived the Christmas Day crash, but he and the plane's Libyan pilot have not been seen publicly since leaving the hospital.
In Guinea, transport officials said they investigated Strothers' report that the planes were the same and found it to be false.
``He was mistaken,'' senior aviation deputy Dominique Mara said. ``This wasn't the plane from Luanda. The Transport Ministry has denied this claim.''
Also, the FBI has put out a worldwide alert for American Ben Charles Padilla, who allegedly was seen boarding the Angola jet with another man just before it disappeared.
According to Padilla's family in Florida, he was hired to repossess the jet after Air Angola failed to make lease payments.
His sister, Benita Padilla-Kirkland, told the South Florida Sun-Sentinel she feared the plane crashed or the 51-year-old Padilla was being held against his will.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/inte...ery-Plane.html
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vista97
GlueBall you just pasted the interview process to work at ypur choice of any sleezeey African dirt bag air carrier. Ignorance may be bliss but often it can be very dangerous.
People familiar ( which you certainley are not) refer to the B727-200's with the the Dash 9's as "the lead sled ".
People familiar ( which you certainley are not) refer to the B727-200's with the the Dash 9's as "the lead sled ".
Person Of Interest
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If this 727 was fitted with pax seats, it couldn't have been the missing fuel tanker from Angola.
I've flown those tankers and other cargo 727's and they all have all of the insulation and soundproofing ripped out to save the weight. Putting one back into pax configuration (even "African Standard") would be not cost effective even if it were possible.
And as anyone who IS familiar with the 727, the -9's were a joy to fly, compared to the real "lead sleds" which were -7's.
I agree with Airbubba, give me the -17R's or the Valsan conversion and day...
I've flown those tankers and other cargo 727's and they all have all of the insulation and soundproofing ripped out to save the weight. Putting one back into pax configuration (even "African Standard") would be not cost effective even if it were possible.
And as anyone who IS familiar with the 727, the -9's were a joy to fly, compared to the real "lead sleds" which were -7's.
I agree with Airbubba, give me the -17R's or the Valsan conversion and day...
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The -7's were original equipment on the B727-100 ,the original B727 ,the -9's were original equipment on the B-727-200 series.
EAL had the brilliant idea of paying extra money to have Boeing modify their B727-200 or order to the -7's in order to have a common engine for the DC-9-30,B727-25,B727-225 fortunately only 25 EAL were the lead sled .The original configuration called for 118 pax on the B-727-225 used on domestic short to medium runs.
So the -9's used for pax loads of 175 pax ,on long hauls,and in tropical temperatures, would certainley be to a safety conscience crew member, another lead sled.
EAL did upgrade to the -15's then the =17's for the South American runs.
EAL had the brilliant idea of paying extra money to have Boeing modify their B727-200 or order to the -7's in order to have a common engine for the DC-9-30,B727-25,B727-225 fortunately only 25 EAL were the lead sled .The original configuration called for 118 pax on the B-727-225 used on domestic short to medium runs.
So the -9's used for pax loads of 175 pax ,on long hauls,and in tropical temperatures, would certainley be to a safety conscience crew member, another lead sled.
EAL did upgrade to the -15's then the =17's for the South American runs.
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Knowing the facts
smallpilot: I am with you! Remember when I first became a Flt Ops Inspector and invited to dinner by a crew after a checkride. Both pilots began to add salt and pepper to their meals as soon as waiter set the plates on the table. An experienced (Senior) Checkpilot, wispered to me: "... making a decision with-out knowing the facts!"
I always remember this when I am about to open my mouth to speak when I do not have the facts.
Cheers
I always remember this when I am about to open my mouth to speak when I do not have the facts.
Cheers
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Well if this one had a serial number different than what is below it is not the missing 727 from Angola.
Detail Data for Serial Number 20985
AIRPLANE INFORMATION
AIRPLANE ID: QA143 SERIAL NO: 20985 AMRE REGISTRY: N844AA
BAS-EFF: Q0536 LINE NO: 1123 ORIGINAL REGISTRY: N844AA
ENG-EFF: MODEL-DASH 727-200 CURRENT REGISTRY: N844AA
MODEL: 727-223 COUNTRY OF REGISTRY U.S.A.
I think somebody made an earlier post that the airplane that just crashed had serial number 21089. The missing one has serial 20985.
This is 3X-GDM:
AIRPLANE INFORMATION
AIRPLANE ID: QA161 SERIAL NO: 21089 AMRE REGISTRY: N862AA
BAS-EFF: Q0661 LINE NO: 1263 ORIGINAL REGISTRY: N862AA
ENG-EFF: MODEL-DASH 727-200 CURRENT REGISTRY: 3X-GDM
MODEL: 727-223 MODEL CONFIG: 200 COUNTRY OF REGISTRY GUINEA
ENGINE-MFG: PRATT & WHITNEY COMMERCIAL ENGINE BUSINESS ENGINE DESCRIPTION: JT8D
IN SERVICE: YES OUT OF SERVICE DATE: AFM NO: D6-8728.3
REIMP-AP-CD: ADD VAR IND: N AP PARK IND: Y
DELIVERY DATE: 05/13/1977 (Actual)
Detail Data for Serial Number 20985
AIRPLANE INFORMATION
AIRPLANE ID: QA143 SERIAL NO: 20985 AMRE REGISTRY: N844AA
BAS-EFF: Q0536 LINE NO: 1123 ORIGINAL REGISTRY: N844AA
ENG-EFF: MODEL-DASH 727-200 CURRENT REGISTRY: N844AA
MODEL: 727-223 COUNTRY OF REGISTRY U.S.A.
I think somebody made an earlier post that the airplane that just crashed had serial number 21089. The missing one has serial 20985.
This is 3X-GDM:
AIRPLANE INFORMATION
AIRPLANE ID: QA161 SERIAL NO: 21089 AMRE REGISTRY: N862AA
BAS-EFF: Q0661 LINE NO: 1263 ORIGINAL REGISTRY: N862AA
ENG-EFF: MODEL-DASH 727-200 CURRENT REGISTRY: 3X-GDM
MODEL: 727-223 MODEL CONFIG: 200 COUNTRY OF REGISTRY GUINEA
ENGINE-MFG: PRATT & WHITNEY COMMERCIAL ENGINE BUSINESS ENGINE DESCRIPTION: JT8D
IN SERVICE: YES OUT OF SERVICE DATE: AFM NO: D6-8728.3
REIMP-AP-CD: ADD VAR IND: N AP PARK IND: Y
DELIVERY DATE: 05/13/1977 (Actual)
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AlwaysOnFire
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B747 Plumber, here´s the names of the person you mention,
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/05_01_04/art2.asp
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/05_01_04/art2.asp
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alexmcfire,
It is good to see that the real owner of this aircraft (Imad Saba) has finally surfaced! I like the part of the article that says, " not due for servicing as it was last serviced in the United States three years ago." I think when they dig deeper they will find that the aircraft was only prepared for a ferry flight to Afghanistan and that was all-no heavy checks!
B747 Plumber
It is good to see that the real owner of this aircraft (Imad Saba) has finally surfaced! I like the part of the article that says, " not due for servicing as it was last serviced in the United States three years ago." I think when they dig deeper they will find that the aircraft was only prepared for a ferry flight to Afghanistan and that was all-no heavy checks!
B747 Plumber
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Last summer, UTA asked Lebanon to allow an airplane with registration 3X-GDM to fly through Beirut. The request was denied. UTA then asked Lebanon to allow an airplane with registration 3D-FAK to fly through Beirut. This request was initially denied, but later approved.
UTA flew two Boeing 727s. If the one that wasn't allowed to fly through Beirut was 3X-GDM, then the one that was allowed to fly through must have been 3X-GDO. I can't find any information on an airplane with registration 3D-FAK.
Also, I want to find out what happened to 3X-GDM. Supposedly it was leased to Libyan Arab Airlines, but it seems odd to me that an airplane that Lebanon didn't want in its airspace was deemed airworthy enough to go into service for another airline.
In addition, the pilot who thinks he saw N844AA on June 27/28 in Guinea is wrong. It wasn't 3X-GOM, it was 3X-GDM, which had been ferried from the US to Guinea on June 26.
I look forward to comments/criticisms.
UTA flew two Boeing 727s. If the one that wasn't allowed to fly through Beirut was 3X-GDM, then the one that was allowed to fly through must have been 3X-GDO. I can't find any information on an airplane with registration 3D-FAK.
Also, I want to find out what happened to 3X-GDM. Supposedly it was leased to Libyan Arab Airlines, but it seems odd to me that an airplane that Lebanon didn't want in its airspace was deemed airworthy enough to go into service for another airline.
In addition, the pilot who thinks he saw N844AA on June 27/28 in Guinea is wrong. It wasn't 3X-GOM, it was 3X-GDM, which had been ferried from the US to Guinea on June 26.
I look forward to comments/criticisms.
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johnaustin,
I have access to probably the most complete aircraft databases in the world and unless they reregistered one of the denied aircraft the same day so as to maybe slip by and the databases have not updated yet or they were maybe going to pull the registration after the flight there is no aircraft registered anywhere as 3D-FAK. Now maybe somebody got the registration wrong in the articles, but with so many saying 3D-FAK I find that hard to believe.
Somebody needs a severe beating because I smell a rat.
I have access to probably the most complete aircraft databases in the world and unless they reregistered one of the denied aircraft the same day so as to maybe slip by and the databases have not updated yet or they were maybe going to pull the registration after the flight there is no aircraft registered anywhere as 3D-FAK. Now maybe somebody got the registration wrong in the articles, but with so many saying 3D-FAK I find that hard to believe.
Somebody needs a severe beating because I smell a rat.
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Memories of Cotonou
Not the first a/c to operate out of Cotonou somewhat overloaded... In 1967-68 about twelve DC6 operated out of there for the International Committee of the Red Cross on the night time relief flights (up to 3 round trips per night) to Uli Ihiala strip in Biafra during the Nigerian Civil War. They would take off from 1730 so as to be crossing the coast back into Nigeria after dark. They were customarily about 4000 lbs overweight, and it was very fortunate the runway there points out to sea (more or less), because they used every inch of it and even a palm tree between it and the beach would have been too much for them. Polyglot aircrews but all maintained (excellently I believe) by Brits from Field Aircraft Services. Sometimes one would be followed by a French Navy Neptune carrying arms - they flew close up behind to use the DC6 radar shadow as cover. I was one of the first Europeans to get to Uli overland at the end of the war and saw the very moving little cemetery of some 20 air crew who had crashed there during the airlift (they were all from the Sao Tome lift). Sadly and needlessly the Nigerian Army soon bulldozed it away.
Not the first a/c to operate out of Cotonou somewhat overloaded... In 1967-68 about twelve DC6 operated out of there for the International Committee of the Red Cross on the night time relief flights (up to 3 round trips per night) to Uli Ihiala strip in Biafra during the Nigerian Civil War. They would take off from 1730 so as to be crossing the coast back into Nigeria after dark. They were customarily about 4000 lbs overweight, and it was very fortunate the runway there points out to sea (more or less), because they used every inch of it and even a palm tree between it and the beach would have been too much for them. Polyglot aircrews but all maintained (excellently I believe) by Brits from Field Aircraft Services. Sometimes one would be followed by a French Navy Neptune carrying arms - they flew close up behind to use the DC6 radar shadow as cover. I was one of the first Europeans to get to Uli overland at the end of the war and saw the very moving little cemetery of some 20 air crew who had crashed there during the airlift (they were all from the Sao Tome lift). Sadly and needlessly the Nigerian Army soon bulldozed it away.
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3D-FAK or 3D-AAK or neither...
Thanks for responding regarding 3D-FAK. I read this in this article:
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/31_12_03/art2.asp
Perhaps there are other articles referencing the same registration number. Elsewhere, I read that the airplane in question had the registration 3D-AAK. Does that exist?
Based on the stories I've read (probably very incomplete picture) I definitely feel as though there has been some funny business with the registrations. Where is 3X-GDM now? And, how did Boeing determine that the airplane that crashed was 3X-GDO, and can they confirm it was N862AA?
I am surprised that the crash in Egypt is getting so much press, yet the crash in Benin disappeared pretty quickly (following the missing plane stories).
I have to admit I'm intrigued because I think it's a juicy story, so I should apologize if it seems as though I'm making light of the tragedy. No disrespect meant.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/31_12_03/art2.asp
Perhaps there are other articles referencing the same registration number. Elsewhere, I read that the airplane in question had the registration 3D-AAK. Does that exist?
Based on the stories I've read (probably very incomplete picture) I definitely feel as though there has been some funny business with the registrations. Where is 3X-GDM now? And, how did Boeing determine that the airplane that crashed was 3X-GDO, and can they confirm it was N862AA?
I am surprised that the crash in Egypt is getting so much press, yet the crash in Benin disappeared pretty quickly (following the missing plane stories).
I have to admit I'm intrigued because I think it's a juicy story, so I should apologize if it seems as though I'm making light of the tragedy. No disrespect meant.
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Johnaustin, I think this going to be runing for a long time in the Lebanese press. Anyway, today Dailystar says you could use
Swaziland for place of registration for as little as 1KUS$ and
get away with a lot.
Swaziland for place of registration for as little as 1KUS$ and
get away with a lot.
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If it was registered as 3D-AAk it is either too new for me to see, fake or a mistake. The closest you get is:
3D-AAJ:
AIRPLANE ID: PG037 SERIAL NO: 19075 AMRE REGISTRY: N9037U
BAS-EFF: P2581 LINE NO: 97 ORIGINAL REGISTRY: N9037U
ENG-EFF: MODEL-DASH 737-200 CURRENT REGISTRY: 3D-AAJ
MODEL: 737-222 MODEL CONFIG: 200 COUNTRY OF REGISTRY SWAZILAND
MODEL DESCRIPTION: PASSENGER
ENGINE-MFG: PRATT & WHITNEY COMMERCIAL ENGINE BUSINESS ENGINE DESCRIPTION: JT8D
IN SERVICE: YES
3D-AAJ:
AIRPLANE ID: PG037 SERIAL NO: 19075 AMRE REGISTRY: N9037U
BAS-EFF: P2581 LINE NO: 97 ORIGINAL REGISTRY: N9037U
ENG-EFF: MODEL-DASH 737-200 CURRENT REGISTRY: 3D-AAJ
MODEL: 737-222 MODEL CONFIG: 200 COUNTRY OF REGISTRY SWAZILAND
MODEL DESCRIPTION: PASSENGER
ENGINE-MFG: PRATT & WHITNEY COMMERCIAL ENGINE BUSINESS ENGINE DESCRIPTION: JT8D
IN SERVICE: YES
